s**t BEST DOC IN CANADA SAYS I NEED RE-DO OF MY BIMAX --PLEASE VOTE ON MY OPTION

[GJ]

Having seen your result, I say don't even bother with revision. It's an acceptable result, even if it is slightly class 2 still.

That said, that first plan sounds awful and is sure to result in a "chimp" look. It will also elongate your face since a linear movement on a high  jaw angle results in moving downward.

Proclining the teeth a little is okay, but if done in excess it causes gum recession. The teeth shoudln't be used to compensate for the jaw movement; that's when problems arise.

[Lazlo]

Thank you April, Kavan, GJ, Journey et al.  I appreciate your feedback. I will have new cephs etc. done and will post them on this forum for you guys to see.

I chose Sinn instead of Arnett (who was practicing at the time) because he was cheaper and also was super, super attentive. I'm not saying Sinn did a bad job, but I do think I needed a greater advancement for sure.

Thanks all of you, I appreciate it. I'm going to have more consults and then we'll see. This will be a long road ahead. 

[PloskoPlus]

Having seen your result, I say don't even bother with revision. It's an acceptable result, even if it is slightly class 2 still.

That said, that first plan sounds awful and is sure to result in a "chimp" look. It will also elongate your face since a linear movement on a high  jaw angle results in moving downward.

Proclining the teeth a little is okay, but if done in excess it causes gum recession. The teeth shoudln't be used to compensate for the jaw movement; that's when problems arise.

There's proclination via orthodontics, then there's proclination via ccw. In the latter case the teeth are normally proclined relative to the occlusal plane, but more proclined relative to the horizontal.

[PloskoPlus]

Dr.Gunson definitely does segmental lefort to widen the maxilla, don't know the movements he can get, but from the various post by people who have undergone surgery with him, none have complained about 'stability' issues. Due to the vast amount of people who post online, who have undergone surgery with him compared to other surgeons, I think we would have heard about it by now had their been 'stability' issues.

Gunson, like others, has had some shockers as well.  Also, I wouldn't say he's super high volume.  There are quite a few who have done more.  He's quite young for a surgeon, and, to his credit, doesn't just pump the cases through.

[PloskoPlus]

I chose Sinn instead of Arnett (who was practicing at the time) because he was cheaper and also was super, super attentive. I'm not saying Sinn did a bad job, but I do think I needed a greater advancement for sure.

Pretty sure Arnett retired by the time you finally decided on Sinn.  Did Sinn look inside your mouth, measure your face, give you plan?

[Lazlo]

Pretty sure Arnett retired by the time you finally decided on Sinn.  Did Sinn look inside your mouth, measure your face, give you plan?

No, not like Arnett did. Thing is I gave him Arnett's plan to do, and then on the day of the surgery he showed me his plan and it was different. It was kind of a shocker but he explained this would be a good plan for me. It included 6mm upper jaw advancement, 9mm lower jaw and 9 mm chin advancement. With all of that said, the result doesn't look as all of that sounds. I could email you his operating report where he relays in detail everything he did. Whether that's really what he did or whether that relapsed a bit I don't know. But immediately after surgery I still looked class 2 and other surgeons have commented the same. That said, when I asked Sinn about that he said that's they way your bite is set up after bicuspid extractions. That's what has caused me to permanently look class 2 because my already narrow and short bite has been made even more retrusive so the advancement can only do so much. What I really need is a way for my lower jaw to go further in front of my upper jaw yet keeping my bite in a proper set up. Like when I just my lower jaw out and bite in what is clearly a Class III position, I look skeletally good. So I don't know how that result could be achieved with orthodontics and surgery yet keeping my bite in a class 1 position!? Do you kind of understand what I'm saying?

[Lefortitude]

No, not like Arnett did. Thing is I gave him Arnett's plan to do, and then on the day of the surgery he showed me his plan and it was different. It was kind of a shocker but he explained this would be a good plan for me. It included 6mm upper jaw advancement, 9mm lower jaw and 9 mm chin advancement. With all of that said, the result doesn't look as all of that sounds. I could email you his operating report where he relays in detail everything he did. Whether that's really what he did or whether that relapsed a bit I don't know. But immediately after surgery I still looked class 2 and other surgeons have commented the same. That said, when I asked Sinn about that he said that's they way your bite is set up after bicuspid extractions. That's what has caused me to permanently look class 2 because my already narrow and short bite has been made even more retrusive so the advancement can only do so much. What I really need is a way for my lower jaw to go further in front of my upper jaw yet keeping my bite in a proper set up. Like when I just my lower jaw out and bite in what is clearly a Class III position, I look skeletally good. So I don't know how that result could be achieved with orthodontics and surgery yet keeping my bite in a class 1 position!? Do you kind of understand what I'm saying?

This is insane. You were told he was going to do one thing, and on THE DAY OF SURGERY (after you were paid up in full i presume) he changes the plan, contrary to what you paid for? this is madness. id lose my s**t. i also dont know what you look like, perhaps he was right? i know you look OBJECTIVELY BETTER than you did pre op? sounds like if you were to rate your surgery from 1 (failure) to 10 (perfect success) it would lean towards a success? If thats the case, and you still want some refinement you need a perfectionist surgeon (gunson comes to mind) who can apply his specific aesthetic artistry to your case. Otherwise youre shooting in the dark as to weather youl come out better or worse than you are now.

[PloskoPlus]

No, not like Arnett did. Thing is I gave him Arnett's plan to do, and then on the day of the surgery he showed me his plan and it was different. It was kind of a shocker but he explained this would be a good plan for me. It included 6mm upper jaw advancement, 9mm lower jaw and 9 mm chin advancement. With all of that said, the result doesn't look as all of that sounds. I could email you his operating report where he relays in detail everything he did. Whether that's really what he did or whether that relapsed a bit I don't know. But immediately after surgery I still looked class 2 and other surgeons have commented the same. That said, when I asked Sinn about that he said that's they way your bite is set up after bicuspid extractions. That's what has caused me to permanently look class 2 because my already narrow and short bite has been made even more retrusive so the advancement can only do so much. What I really need is a way for my lower jaw to go further in front of my upper jaw yet keeping my bite in a proper set up. Like when I just my lower jaw out and bite in what is clearly a Class III position, I look skeletally good. So I don't know how that result could be achieved with orthodontics and surgery yet keeping my bite in a class 1 position!? Do you kind of understand what I'm saying?

You cannot achieve your goals without CCW.  But only you can decide if the risk is worth it.

[Lazlo]

You cannot achieve your goals without CCW.  But only you can decide if the risk is worth it.

Word. I heart that. I have a feeling it's gonna have to be gunson. I just wish there was someone out there who could grow my dental arches so they were wider and longer and then did the jaw surgery. I mean without having to put in implants. But f**k, I think I have an appointment with Gunson scheduled within the next few months so I'll have to see what he says.

I don't know if I should even bother consulting with Wolford.

[PloskoPlus]

I don't know if I should even bother consulting with Wolford.

I would.

If Sinn bait and switched you like you said, then technically you have grounds to sue.  What he did was unethical.  You paid for one thing and he used your emotional momentum, financial commitment to make you agree to something else entirely.

[Lazlo]

I would.

If Sinn bait and switched you like you said, then technically you have grounds to sue.  What he did was unethical.  You paid for one thing and he used your emotional momentum, financial commitment to make you agree to something else entirely.

I feel like it wasn't a bait and switch as much as it was him convincing me his new plan was better. I can't emotionally go through a lawsuit.

[Lazlo]

So who is more of a perfectionist? Gunson or Wolford. I'm going to do this right this time.

I'm guessing it is Gunson, but I want your input.

I have to go through a f**king slew of consultations again, have braces put on, and get this f**king done right. I will consult with Dr. Kasey Li and wolford as well. I will update you all over the next several months.

[Lazlo]

In a perfect world what I really wish could happen is the following:

use sarpe to expand my upper jaw

use distractor on mandible to widen my lower jaw.

then move both jaws forward with lower jaw coming more forward.

Why the f**k can't this be done? It would create space for my tongue on the transverse axis and anterior posterior space. I realize my tongue moves with the lower jaw so I might still have some posterior anterior constriction but at least there would greater space at the back.

If anyone knows of a doc who can do this type of work let me know.

[Post bimax]

So who is more of a perfectionist? Gunson or Wolford. I'm going to do this right this time.

I'm guessing it is Gunson, but I want your input.

I have to go through a f**king slew of consultations again, have braces put on, and get this f**king done right. I will consult with Dr. Kasey Li and wolford as well. I will update you all over the next several months.

Based on hearsay, Gunson. But consult with everyone.

[PloskoPlus]

So who is more of a perfectionist? Gunson or Wolford. I'm going to do this right this time.

I'm guessing it is Gunson, but I want your input.

I have to go through a f**king slew of consultations again, have braces put on, and get this f**king done right. I will consult with Dr. Kasey Li and wolford as well. I will update you all over the next several months.

If Li is the sleep apnea guy, then Wolford will have revised tons of his monkey results.