Emotional/sad/ do we all have bdd?

[GJ]

I'm a recessed dork, and I've had more attractive girlfriends than many "male model" types (these guys are usually gay, for one, but other issues such as femininity in a man). I wonder how I'd fit in the incel theology.

I think athletes get more women than models. Models are feminine, and girls over 18 rarely want to date female looking guys. I have a theory that young girls like feminine guys because they're not yet mentally ready for sex and a feminine guy is safe. After 18 or so they want a neutral or masculine guy, in general.

Anyway, ugly people can date attractive women if they're funny, interesting, not desperate (most important maybe), etc. Money isn't as big an issue as people think. The big problem is when you're unattractive and possess no good personality traits. Then you're truly doomed.

[cambree]

And this paragraph in particular really resonated with me because I feel the same way ! I know it's not normal to feel this way but it rang very true. All that lead up to the surgery , that dopamine rush, that sense of immense possibility and hope. This is very conflicting because I feel really sad that I identify so much with the below

Ps- academicnut I am sorry to have hijacked your thread

"My self-image fluctuates all the time,” he wrote on the forum as he waited. “I want to live in a plastic surgeon’s office. I just want to have a bed in one of his labs. Just a bed, a small kitchen, and an internet connection. I want to feel pure within my body and self-validate by looking in the mirror and seeing the flawless skull. When detecting a tiny deformity, I call the surgeon and he’ll be there immediately, along with his assistant and a knife in his hand to cut me open.”

[GJ]

Sounds like self-loathing/hatred and letting society (which is extremely insecure, as a whole) dictate worth.
Anyone making fun of another person has zero self-worth and they're resolving that dissonance by taking it out on another person. And/or they are secretely insecure about that person. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can move above those people, who make up the majority. People fail by expecting validation from external sources.

Eppely cashing in on insecurity is an unfortunate byproduct. The guy should only be fixing true congenital deformities.

[cambree]

The part that got me was there was this one surgeon in the article that says he turns away patients he thinks may have bdd but then he refers them to eppley? I am having trouble squaring that in my head

[GJ]

The part that got me was there was this one surgeon in the article that says he turns away patients he thinks may have bdd but then he refers them to eppley? I am having trouble squaring that in my head

It sounds like he doesn't want to deal with potential fallout. So he sends them to Eppley, who maybe doesn't care about any fallout. The original guy probably gets a kickback for the referral. That's my guess. Though, who knows.

[GJ]

I didn't read most of the article. Just browsed it. I might read it tonight. Does it mention how "incels" also love Jordan Peterson?
What is weird is they never take any of his advice and actually live it.

[jusken]

I wonder how I'd fit in the incel theology.

I've done a bit of research in on this, and you don't seem like you fit any definition of 'incel'.  It has sorta taken on a pejorative though of 'hateful misogynist'.  The root is just 'involuntarily celibate', which in itself is dubious, as only a very small percentage of people would fit this definition.  I think all of this just encompasses our desire to understand beauty, attraction, and just broadly biology - and any insight or frustration that entails.  Boys and young men especially seem to get very frustrated with sex, and this probably makes up the majority of people who fit the 'hateful misogynist' label many people on the internet are so adamant to throw around. 

I don't know what you look like, but I don't think I'd be surprised about your dating life based on your temperament in here.  I agree with many of your points, but just to play devil's advocate here, saying ugly people can attract beautiful people is like saying poor people can become rich.  They can and they do, but there's a supply and demand problem, and it's all based on a huge array of variables we can't possibly fully understand with our current minds.  Statistically fewer ugly people will get with attractive people simply because of the starting point, their chemical balance, upbringing, or trauma associated with their self image.  But, things we can't see externally are also very important, and much more difficult to understand.  You just play your hand and hope for the best.

I think this topic touches on a very interesting subject.  As people gain more knowledge and become more critical, perhaps some amount of BDD and narcissism inevitably develop.  As we've seen with social media, being able to compare yourself with anyone in the world has obvious consequences to our mental health.  But, perhaps this also puts pressure on finding a solution to beauty and health and putting an end to the genetic lottery aspect of life we're all so used to.  Then, changing your appearance would just be as normal as what you wear - which would create a host of new questions about what we derive meaning from.

[cambree]

Nope he doesn't get a mention at all but of course they did all the other honorary name drops like mewing

[cambree]

This

I think fundamentally the Incel mindset is a defeatist deterministic one but like all things in life, we must resist the temptation to simplify. This actually distills to the nature Vs nurture question and as much as how things play out cannot be entirely pre ordained , given that we are dealt such different decks and have such starkly different starting points， it would also be remiss to think we can have a level playing field by simply trying our best and putting in every effort possible to even things out. We cannot deny privilege when it obviously exists and confers obvious benefits on the individuals fortunate enough to be bestowed such attributes

But at the end of the day , you simply do what you can and let the chips land where they may

I think all of this just encompasses our desire to understand I agree with many of your points, but just to play devil's advocate here, saying ugly people can attract beautiful people is like saying poor people can become rich.  They can and they do, but there's a supply and demand problem, and it's all based on a huge array of variables we can't possibly fully understand with our current minds.  Statistically fewer ugly people will get with attractive people simply because of the starting point, their chemical balance, upbringing, or trauma associated with their self image.  But, things we can't see externally are also very important, and much more difficult to understand.  You just play your hand and hope for the best.

[GJ]

saying ugly people can attract beautiful people is like saying poor people can become rich.  They can and they do, but there's a supply and demand problem, and it's all based on a huge array of variables we can't possibly fully understand with our current minds.

For sure. It's easy to say something, hard to do it. But I know hanging out on sluthate, etc and whining about your looks while insulting others is never going to attract an attractive female. And by an attractive female I mean physically and personality. I require both and put emphasis on the latter, and even with my recessed jaws, have rejected physically attractive females who had terrible personalities. They were always surprised and would actually chase me even harder. It was then I learned and figured this all out. Everyone is insecure. Even the attractive people. They just have insecurity over some other issue (or maybe it's their desire to continue to feel attractive. Fading beauty hurts and is inevitable, and it hurts to see yourself changing). Overcoming that is difficult. Like right now I'm in the process of going grey, and it's painful to see every day more and more. Now it's in my beard, etc. I have to accept all that. Using products or seeing doctors isn't the answer. I'm still insecure like everyone else, but by acknowledging it and understanding the causes you actually learn self-acceptance, which is calming, and at that point it's somewhat easier to ignore it. Overcoming the mental aspect becomes an interesting challenge, and the relief from winning that battle and accepting your reality is sensed by others as confidence.

But yeah, your point is correct. There will be losers. You just don't want to skew your odds toward that camp with self-sabotage, whining, moping, and hanging out on forums like sluthate, etc -- all are self-sabotage. You jump above all those guys simply by not going down that path. From there it's a matter of understanding self, others, motivations, that everyone is insecure, etc. Then you jump above another group. At that point you can compete with anyone for anybody, IMO. A lot of this is mental. If you do all the mental stuff and still lose, you very likely have a deep personality issue (sociopath, psychopath, etc). To me these people are the only people who should be losers. The physical disadvantage is just that, but it's not a death wish, and it can be overcome if you're insightful.

But, perhaps this also puts pressure on finding a solution to beauty and health and putting an end to the genetic lottery aspect of life we're all so used to.  Then, changing your appearance would just be as normal as what you wear - which would create a host of new questions about what we derive meaning from.

Well you need unattractive people for relativity. If everyone is attractive then nobody is attractive. The reason attractiveness is prized is it's rare.
That rarity is a genetic cue for mating. People would be really disappointed in their offspring if they mate with one of these fake "attractive" people...and that wouldn't end well for anyone involved. But, that could be where we're headed. Again, I wish people would cut it off at the source of the problem, which is mostly mental.

[Post bimax]

As people gain more knowledge and become more critical, perhaps some amount of BDD and narcissism inevitably develop.

This is probably true.  Before surgery, I thought my face was basically 'normal', and that JS could correct my functional issues and even have a chance to make me look better.  Now I have insecurities about my face because I feel I look a bit 'abnormal', even if some say it was an improvement overall.  I could have gone my whole life without knowing the significance of a nasolabial angle or what the f**k an anterior nasal spine is.  But here I am.  On the one hand, I'm glad I know a lot more so I can make more informed decisions about these things going forward.  On the other, it's in my head now.

As far as incels go, most of them are forgetting that guys can drastically increase their physical attractiveness by changing their bodies.  Putting on 20 lbs of lean muscle mass is going to get you laid (if that's your goal) way more than f**king cheek implants unless you are legitimately deformed.

I do think the incel problem is actually more about not being desired rather than lack of sex, which is a more sympathetic position.  I can almost guarantee most of them would rather be lusted after and never have sex than have sex all the time with women who don't desire them.  After all, prostitutes are cheap in most countries and many are quite good looking.  But that won't solve their problem.

[jusken]

For sure. It's easy to say something, hard to do it. But I know hanging out on sluthate, etc and whining about your looks while insulting others is never going to attract an attractive female. And by an attractive female I mean physically and personality. I require both and put emphasis on the latter, and even with my recessed jaws, have rejected physically attractive females who had terrible personalities. They were always surprised and would actually chase me even harder. It was then I learned and figured this all out. Everyone is insecure. Even the attractive people. They just have insecurity over some other issue (or maybe it's their desire to continue to feel attractive. Fading beauty hurts and is inevitable, and it hurts to see yourself changing). Overcoming that is difficult. Like right now I'm in the process of going grey, and it's painful to see every day more and more. Now it's in my beard, etc. I have to accept all that. Using products or seeing doctors isn't the answer. I'm still insecure like everyone else, but by acknowledging it and understanding the causes you actually learn self-acceptance, which is calming, and at that point it's somewhat easier to ignore it. Overcoming the mental aspect becomes an interesting challenge, and the relief from winning that battle and accepting it is sensed by others as confidence.

But yeah, your point is correct. There will be losers. You just don't want to skew your odds toward that camp with self-sabotage, and whining, moping, hanging out on forums like sluthate, etc are all self-sabotage. You jump above all those guys simply by not going down that path. From there it's a matter of understanding self, others, motivations, that everyone is insecure, etc. Then you jump above another group. At that point you can compete with anyone for anybody, IMO. A lot of this is mental. The physical disadvantage is just that, but it's not a death wish, and it can be overcome if you're insightful.

Well you need unattractive people for relativity. If everyone is attractive then nobody is attractive. The reason attractiveness is prized is it's rare.
That rarity is a genetic cue for mating. People would be really disappointed in their offspring if they mate with one of these fake "attractive" people...and that wouldn't end well for anyone involved. But, that could be where we're headed. Again, I wish people would cut it off at the source of the problem, which is mostly mental.

This is good stuff here.  I agree, there are a ton of people who mentally have given up and resorted to self sabotage essentially.  Being hateful and bitter is not a productive mindset.

I see a bit of hypocrisy here though, and hopefully you won't be offended. You want someone attractive both physically and in personality, which I would say everyone would want (within a range of subjectivity).  Physical attractiveness is mostly a indicator of good health and therefore SHOULD be desired.  For instance, I've had bad allergies growing up, which affected my appearance as well as my personality (being tired).  I've done well I think given this, but it's like a weight on my shoulders that I would opt out of if I could.  Acknowledging that millimeters of bone has some impact on our perceptions of each other (atleast initially), is a good reason to want to eventually get rid of it - it serves no purpose long term other than to harden us.  Right now it's just something we endure and hopefully persevere.  Personality is a truly mysterious thing on the other hand, and possibly even more subjective - and a certain amount of hardship actually creates an ideal personality and a tolerable human being imo.

Your ideas about beauty being relativistic and rarity being the true value are spot on, and I'd say hopefully something else will become the rare thing we seek.  Perhaps we'd enrich ourselves and our personalities.  Or possibly the natural variance and subjectivity will fill that void.  If not, we may just end up living out some sort of weird personal simulations (dystopia?).  In this vein though, I think a very interesting idea would be simulations to test our hypotheses.  Take the hateful misogynist and put him in a model body and see what happens, or conversely take the model who says 'just smile' and give him a severely recessed jaw.  I'm not implying the answer with either of these examples btw, I genuinely would be interested in what happened.  I suspect the true outcome of this after enough mixing and matching would be very tolerant and enlightened people.

[GJ]

I see a bit of hypocrisy here though, and hopefully you won't be offended. You want someone attractive both physically and in personality, which I would say everyone would want (within a range of subjectivity).

No, I'm not offended, and if I have cognitive dissonance that I don't realize then it's good to point it out.

Are you saying the hypocrisy is that I'm not attractive yet I want someone who is? Well, I am with someone, and she thinks I'm attractive. I think I'm fine...like a 5 or 6. But she thinks I'm a 10. So I'm not sure it's a hypocrisy. Also, everyone has their own taste and standards. A 10 for me will be a 5 for someone else. Etc. 

That kind of thing gets complicated. When I say I want someone who has both physical and personality beauty, I mean on my own scale not an objective scale a doctor would use. Sometimes the personality will make the person look better. Many times, actually.

Now I'm wondering if I were a 1 if I'd feel the same...maybe not. So I kind of get the desperation that some people have.

Your ideas about beauty being relativistic and rarity being the true value are spot on, and I'd say hopefully something else will become the rare thing we seek.  Perhaps we'd enrich ourselves and our personalities.

That would be a positive for humanity if excellent personality traits and values became the rare and desired trait.

[jusken]

No, I'm not offended, and if I have cognitive dissonance that I don't realize then it's good to point it out.

Are you saying the hypocrisy is that I'm not attractive yet I want someone who is? Well, I am with someone, and she thinks I'm attractive. I think I'm fine...like a 5 or 6. But she thinks I'm a 10. So I'm not sure it's a hypocrisy. Also, everyone has their own taste and standards. A 10 for me will be a 5 for someone else. Etc. 

That kind of thing gets complicated. When I say I want someone who has both physical and personality beauty, I mean on my own scale not an objective scale a doctor would use. Sometimes the personality will make the person look better. Many times, actually.

Now I'm wondering if I were a 1 if I'd feel the same...maybe not. So I kind of get the desperation that some people have.

Yeah no, the hypocrisy wasn't about your appearance, which only you know between the two of us.  You could think you're a dork, but objectively be pretty attractive to other people.  I was mainly referring to desiring physically attractive people (irrespective of your own looks).  I think this is pretty universal, and most people would want this and what if someone doesn't have it?  That's an interesting question about what would happen if your looks score was lowered (let's assume a single number summarizing someone's attractiveness isn't highly problematic in this experiment).  Maybe even one point in this high oversimplified scenario would make a big difference?  Maybe that's all the separates most people, are a bunch of slightly different variables all having their influence.  Or maybe in your case you'd persevere given a large change.  It would be fascinating to see and I think about this a lot.

[GJ]

Yeah no, the hypocrisy wasn't about your appearance, which only you know between the two of us.  You could think you're a dork, but objectively be pretty attractive to other people.  I was mainly referring to desiring physically attractive people (irrespective of your own looks).  I think this is pretty universal, and most people would want this and what if someone doesn't have it?  That's an interesting question about what would happen if your looks score was lowered (let's assume a single number summarizing someone's attractiveness isn't highly problematic in this experiment).  Maybe even one point in this high oversimplified scenario would make a big difference?  Maybe that's all the separates most people, are a bunch of slightly different variables all having their influence.  Or maybe in your case you'd persevere given a large change.  It would be fascinating to see and I think about this a lot.

If I were a 3 I'd probably be more inclined to hang out on sluthate, et al. But I really hope I'd fight that urge and have enough sense to know that's not a healthy path.

It's hard to imagine. But as I age and grey, etc, my score lowers, so maybe I'll find out soon enough!

By the way, maybe I'm a weirdo, but say I'm a 5 and a girl is a 5...if she's into me, she suddenly becomes much higher. What I'm trying to say is, attraction is a bit of a positive feedback loop. If a girl likes you she's instantly more attractive, assuming no major personality issues, etc. E.g. In high school my friends and I were in a weird group...kind of dorks but also played sports and got invited to parties, etc. Well, I'd see all types of dynamics. My friends and I lusted after the cheerleaders and in our minds we made them unattainable, but in reality we were most excited when we got wind that some girl in "our league" was into us. Reason being that girl was actually attainable, and that made her attractive. It's for this dynamic I find girls I walk past on the street on a daily basis more attractive than super models, and it's by a long shot. Is this abnormal? I like living in reality.