Re: Do our looks determine our personalities?

[Sharptoys]

People tend to see what you put out there,

This is quite true, but much of what we "put out there" is of, or related to, our appearance. That stimulus--clothing, height, weight, face--is used, at least in part, to formulate one's identity. When the above stimulus is considered normal, or at least less divergent, its effect is not necessarily very noticeable. However, when the deviation is more substantial, it can significantly alter others' interpretation of one's actions.

While I do not have any non-anecdotal evidence to provide, I would ask my fellow forumites to consider the men in the OP.  Imagine, for a moment, that they were given identical managerial positions in a company, in which they were charged with exerting both formal and informal power. Which man would be more respected? Which man would be more resented? More to the point, would their specific, individual actions be interpreted noticeably differently? 

[streo]

While I do not have any non-anecdotal evidence to provide, I would ask my fellow forumites to consider the men in the OP.  Imagine, for a moment, that they were given identical managerial positions in a company, in which they were charged with exerting both formal and informal power. Which man would be more respected? Which man would be more resented? More to the point, would their specific, individual actions be interpreted noticeably differently?  

What matters most in this case is what they say/do/deliver/expect, not how they look.  I am a good example: I have the typical beta-male weak profile, but I am much more respected/feared at work in general because I have a reputation.  I was on a project with another guy who not only was a pay grade higher (meaning he out-ranked me) but also looked like George Clooney's cousin.  Guess who had the final say in matters?  It was me, all the time.  The VP of our department would occasionally defer to the other guy when he needed some moral support, but at the end of the day, I was in charge even though on paper the other guy was in charge.  Btw, this was at my current role at a Fortune 20 company.

Starting out my career in Manhattan it wasn't always like this because I had no track record to speak of.  I'm 40 now and I always pass for 28.  When I was in my 20s I didn't look a day past 18 (and this is being generous).  When I tried playing equals with the Wall St. jocks who were my peers, it was tough for the first six months, but then I started playing their jock game and they started thinking (on their own) that I was some kind of wonder-kid.  In this case, looks did indeed have an impact on their perception of me but it was largely because they were trying to make the actions they saw fit with what they saw physically before them, and not the other way around.

Believe me there are so many things that make a person, looks are one of them, but in my view you need to simply be presentable, not look like a model in order to have some clout.

[Sharptoys]

What matters most in this case is what they say/do/deliver/expect, not how they look

I don't disagree with this at all. What I would argue, though, is that a divergent facial appearance can noticeably alter others' perception of one's self, and that this effect grows in proportion to the magnitude of the divergence.

Believe me there are so many things that make a person, looks are one of them, but in my view you need to simply be presentable, not look like a model in order to have some clout.

How might one define "presentable"?

[streo]

I don't disagree with this at all. What I would argue, though, is that a divergent facial appearance can noticeably alter others' perception of one's self, and that this effect grows in proportion to the magnitude of the divergence.

Dude, who cares what others think?

EDIT: To say that "a divergent facial appearance can noticeably alter others' perception of one's self" linguistically implies that other people's internal thought process of how they perceive you (of which you have no idea unless you know how to read minds) somehow alters how you view yourself.  Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but often times people say things that clearly express how they think the world works independent of what they were actually trying to say.   What I believe you were trying to say is that people perceive some sort of "inferiority" based on your physical appearance and they begin to treat you in a way that you do not either expect or like, and the more "inferior" you appear to other people then the degree to which you are treated poorly is increased...such unexpected negative treatment leads one to view oneself poorly.  Again I would argue that the power to alter any perception or treatment by others rests in your actions and language.  To quote an ancient rock song: prove yourself, you are the move you make.

EDIT 2: link to said ancient rock song - http://youtu.be/w9goxeGdxi8

How might one define "presentable"?

Dress appropriate for the location/occasion and appear well-groomed/neat.  When it comes to talking, stick to positive conversation (except when you are competing - in which case stick to conversation that gives you the upper hand), and be selective about what you say.  There is also something to be said about one's overall demeanor.  There was a time in my life when I was very confident, and it showed, and people who knew me well would point it out.  That alone did wonders for my love life, and this with a chopped off lower third of a face!

[Sharptoys]

Allow me to preface this post with a personal statement: I have never suffered from a lack of confidence or feelings of inferiority. I like who I am quite a lot, some might say a bit too much. I would never consider switching places in life with another, if it meant losing any part of my character or "self", if you will.

Dude, who cares what others think?

To be completely honest? You do. As does every one of the 59 members on this forum, and thousands on others. This is not an accusation of self-consciousness nor is it something to be avoided. To the contrary, it is something that the vast majority of healthy people do everyday. If we didn't care what others' thought to one extent or another, our society would certainly not be arranged the way it is.

To say that "a divergent facial appearance can noticeably alter others' perception of one's self" linguistically implies that other people's internal thought process of how they perceive you (of which you have no idea unless you know how to read minds) somehow alters how you view yourself. 

I don't believe it significantly affects my self perception, nor do I believe that my statement implied that it does. Their altered perception of myself could certainly exist independent of my own self-conception, could it not?

What I believe you were trying to say is that people perceive some sort of "inferiority" based on your physical appearance and they begin to treat you in a way that you do not either expect or like, and the more "inferior" you appear to other people then the degree to which you are treated poorly is increased...such unexpected negative treatment leads one to view oneself poorly.

You seem convinced that my statement that "a divergent facial appearance can noticeably alter others' perception of one's self" is somehow rooted in self-loathing or disgust; I can assure you that it is not. I have no reason to lie you or any other forum members.

Dress appropriate for the location/occasion and appear well-groomed/neat.  When it comes to talking, stick to positive conversation (except when you are competing - in which case stick to conversation that gives you the upper hand), and be selective about what you say.  There is also something to be said about one's overall demeanor.

Do you do any of the above outside of work? If so, may I suggest that it is because you do care--however slightly-- about how others' perceive you?

That alone did wonders for my love life, and this with a chopped off lower third of a face!

I don't think I'm familiar with your current situation--if I have merely forgotten, I apologize. Perhaps you could provide some details?

[tdawg]

You guys have the right idea, but are taking it WAY too far imo.

Looks only matter to the extent that you guys are saying at the margins. People with a significant deformity like in the OP will have a hard time. People extraordinarily good looking will have an easier time. Everybody in between is more or less on equal footing.

That dude in the OP is an extreme case, he literally has no chin. Using him as an example is bad because he represents a very small amount of the population. The typical person, even with a developmental issue doesnt have that big of a deviation from what is considered normal.

[streo]

You guys have the right idea, but are taking it WAY too far imo.

Looks only matter to the extent that you guys are saying at the margins. People with a significant deformity like in the OP will have a hard time. People extraordinarily good looking will have an easier time. Everybody in between is more or less on equal footing.

That dude in the OP is an extreme case, he literally has no chin. Using him as an example is bad because he represents a very small amount of the population. The typical person, even with a developmental issue doesnt have that big of a deviation from what is considered normal.

I've been told by one oral surgeon that I'm an extreme case.  That guy in the OP has way more of a jawline than I do.  When I bite down, my chin juts out like it's a second Adam's apple, and there is no jawline there unless I force my lower jaw forward (like I have to in order to enunciate words properly).  Even when I hold my jaw forward I have a pretty convex profile.

[Sharptoys]

You guys have the right idea, but are taking it WAY too far imo.

But are we?

That dude in the OP is an extreme case, he literally has no chin. Using him as an example is bad because he represents a very small amount of the population. The typical person, even with a developmental issue doesnt have that big of a deviation from what is considered normal.

Of the general population, yes. On this forum, perhaps less so. I would not be surprised if there are at least a couple other forumites who's cases are only moderately less severe.

While I can't speak for any other members, I would say that my own case approaches the first one in many respects.



A rather depressing -31mm at the pogonion from a vertical profile line.  That's  3.1 cm or 1.3 inches, which is, on a facial scale, fairly significant. The maxillary retrusion makes the deviation a little less visually offensive on the ceph, but is itself an unfortunate deviation.   

[streo]

But are we?
Of the general population, yes. On this forum, perhaps less so. I would not be surprised if there are at least a couple other forumites who's cases are only moderately less severe.

Uh yeah, I'm beginning to understand....I kind of thought I was the only one, but after looking at your ceph I'm beginning to realize that my case is not nearly as complicated as I thought it was.

[streo]

Maybe this should be spun off into the "sharptoys" thread because I'm finding your case to be astonishing.  Seriously man I wish you the best of luck...I'm just floored at those movements!  It's a good thing to be alive in today's day/age so that we can have these issues resolved.

Do you have any difficulty talking normally?  If I don't hold my jaw forward I sound like Bugs Bunny after a bottle of Jack Daniels.

[Krista]

Sharptoys. ,    How old are you and who is your surgeon?   Your profile seems very similar to my loved ones.

[Sharptoys]

Sharptoys. ,    How old are you and who is your surgeon?   Your profile seems very similar to my loved ones.

19. Surgeon is JP Stella out of Dallas/Fort Worth, Tx.

[neferkitti]

Starting out my career in Manhattan it wasn't always like this because I had no track record to speak of.  I'm 40 now and I always pass for 28.  When I was in my 20s I didn't look a day past 18 (and this is being generous).  When I tried playing equals with the Wall St. jocks who were my peers, it was tough for the first six months, but then I started playing their jock game and they started thinking (on their own) that I was some kind of wonder-kid.  In this case, looks did indeed have an impact on their perception of me but it was largely because they were trying to make the actions they saw fit with what they saw physically before them, and not the other way around.

Believe me there are so many things that make a person, looks are one of them, but in my view you need to simply be presentable, not look like a model in order to have some clout.

Agree that sometimes a youthful appearance can have its drawbacks professionally. I've been guilty of negatively judging based on a my perception of a person's age. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm not. I tend to equate competence with age and with age comes wisdom, right? Not always, but there is some correlation there. A youthful appearance can make it more difficult to gain respect from peers, patients, etc. is what I'm trying to get at.

[Heavyweight]

Agree that sometimes a youthful appearance can have its drawbacks professionally. I've been guilty of negatively judging based on a my perception of a person's age. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm not. I tend to equate competence with age and with age comes wisdom, right? Not always, but there is some correlation there. A youthful appearance can make it more difficult to gain respect from peers, patients, etc. is what I'm trying to get at.

People can look young for different reasons. Someone might look young because she has clear, taut skin and a healthy complexion. Another person might look young because he has a receding chin and a weak bone structure. The former case is usually good, and the latter is usually bad. That's why I hate when people say, "you'll be thankful you look young when you're older." This isn't true because I look young for all the wrong reasons. If anything, my recessed jaws will cause my face to age much faster.

[streo]

People can look young for different reasons. Someone might look young because she has clear, taut skin and a healthy complexion. Another person might look young because he has a receding chin and a weak bone structure. The former case is usually good, and the latter is usually bad. That's why I hate when people say, "you'll be thankful you look young when you're older." This isn't true because I look young for all the wrong reasons. If anything, my recessed jaws will cause my face to age much faster.

I was having breakfast with a (late) friend of mine about 4 years ago, and when I told him how old he was, his only response was, "I'm sorry, but you have such a baby face!"  Grumpy guy, so he had no problem with me shoving the finger right in his face.

If I had a dollar for every time I heard, "You'll be grateful when you are older..."  Now I wonder if I'm going to age overnight...