What procedures would you suggest for my eye area?

[Charles-Guillaume]

Ok, is it that you can't learn or that you won't learn.  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you come across as if you think if you just have the perfect face, suddenly hoards of naked women that you find attractive will be flinging themselves at you.  That maybe the world will treat you differently.  This will not happen.

I don't believe that I will ever have a "perfect" face, but I've never known a conventionally attractive man who wasn't approached by girls on a regular basis.

Women are attracted to depth of soul, content of character

With all due respect, I've known plenty of guys with both of these traits who were utterly socially ostracised for bad looks and/or a priori social impopularity. One of them was a concerto pianist with a serious aptitude for philosophy and an unwavering sense of right and wrong, nicest and most courageous person I have ever met (sadly he killed himself due to adult bullying and loneliness).

self-confidence

A function of one's life experience. I have no "self-confidence" since I have no reason whatsoever to expect that I will be successful where previously I have known little but failure.

I'll drop this worn-out quote here just because it fits so nicely.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

self-reliance.

In other words, monetary self-sufficiency (since no-one is truly self-reliant in this complex societal structure). I am sure that this could "attract" people (platonically as well as romantically) who--like leeches--are primarily interested in playing one for their own selfish gain. I've met quite a few of those people.

If by self-reliance you mean an all-around capable "handyman" type of thing, I simply cannot take it seriously, since the (handsome and "cool") guys that I saw getting validated over and over again throughout my youth could barely wipe themselves after taking a dump.

It has absolutely nothing to do with looks.

Surely you cannot believe this? Some conventionally handsome guy, say, Michael Fassbender or young Leonardo DiCaprio wouldn't even have a slight edge over the "average" guy?

The reason I say get under a squat rack, is that when you have a couple hundred pounds of iron on your back and no one else to carry it for you, you'll find out real fast what you are made of and who you are.  Your family money will not be able to help you under the iron.  If you can stick with it, you will develop self-acceptance and confidence.  Not the in-your-face confidence, but a quiet confidence.

This makes me think of new agey "change your life in seven easy steps" routines, but I am certainly willing to work out (and I have done so in the past, prior to getting surgery).

Then women will be attracted to you.  I promise you.

Never promise what you can't deliver. 

My heart simply goes out to this young man in obvious distress.  I wish I could help him.

If you want to help me, you could tell me what aspects of my appearance you would change to make me more attractive.

Lol! 

Honestly....I'm an educated person.  But if the OP spoke to me in the same way he types on here... Hmmm.  I'm assuming you don't, and you are more approachable.

Nowadays I don't speak much at all, but I used to be perceived as rather "normal". I adapt my vocabulary and intonation appropriately to the social setting. My purpose here is to analyse facial minutiae to arrive at conclusions regarding the appearance of myself and others, not to display "confidence" or "swag".

Most women gravitate towards guys that are a bit aggressive and asshole-ish.

Take note 

Yeah, that isn't me, and is most likely never going to be me. I could be aggressive given the right circumstances, and no doubt some people perceive me as an "asshole". However, I am not the type of "asshole" that women crave, not by a long shot.

Hence I should focus my attention on what can concretely be altered for the better--facial appearance.

like seriously boys. if you're doing jaw surgery so you can bang barfbags like those two hags in the video you need to massively improve your standards as well as your game.

That's funny, I am usually told to lower my standards (as though they were unreasonably high, though I would be content with the average slim girl my age).

[Charles-Guillaume]

I think there's two ways to look at this:

One is long term while the other is instant gratification.

Just look at Chris Pratt. He was heavy before and now he's freaking buff and chiseled.  I still enjoyed him for his personality (pre weight loss) and that's what made him very attractive- now, he's got more brownie points because he's got the whole package (body, face, personality). Would he be any less if he were still chubby? No. In this sense, looks are just the cherry on top of the sundae that no one really cares to eat but, they want it because it looks nice. It's still a delicious sundae with or without the cherry.

Though I do believe initial physical attraction is important- it's not everything and I doubt it makes for a lasting union. 

Anyhow, do you really want a shallow partner? I don't see the need or want to be fawned over by such people that base ones worth on how you look. This is a recipe for s**t, s**t and more s**t. Those types of people are hollow and boring anyways.  I would feel miserable if I asked my partner: "why do you love me?" And they respond with: "because you look pretty"... So, when I get older and my looks fade- what then? Very depressing if you think about it.

Everyone has their preferences though- whether you want everyone to take a glance and have instant attraction or the longer route; personality. 

I honestly think personality trumps all.

Would you still find Chris Pratt attractive if his face looked like this, "personality" and body intact?



On the topic of partners and shallowness, I am not sure if I want a partner at all anymore. I did when I was younger, but nowadays I can be truly passionate only about three things: music, cosmogony, and physical validation. Having girls go "eww" at me throughout my youth seriously f**ked my "personality" up beyond repair. It made me unable to trust people in general, and transformed my very essence into that of a leech craving (almost) above all for people (women) to find me physically attractive.

So that is what I do. Speculate about existence, play/record/enjoy music, and try to devise ways to become good-looking. Everything else has the allure of watching paint dry.

[Charles-Guillaume]

I was pin pointing Pratt's weight, but alright.  And to be candid: no- I don't find that kid attractive.  Pratt looks normal, his weight was only the issue.  This kid you posted clearly doesn't look "normal" (face, body, etc.).  If I posted a pic of the cat lady- would you be attracted to her? No- she doesn't look normal. 

You're skewing the general idea that people don't consider personality and favoring it all into looks and looks only- but hey, to each; his own.

Pratt doesn't look "normal", he is unusually handsome. Angular wide face, shapely nose, excellent skin. It is true that the specimen that I selected is less attractive than "normal", but that illustrates my point. Immanent to your conception of an attractive man there seems to be, unsurprisingly, an attractive (proportionally near-perfect) face.

[Charles-Guillaume]

By "normal" I mean a face that doesn't have many discrepancies.  Pratt is proportionate before and after weightloss.

Indeed, this is precisely my idea of things. A well-proportioned face with clarity of skin is the biggest asset there is. Some people suggest that I am after this abstract "perfect" beauty, but this isn't the case.  My face has too many discrepancies to be considered conventionally attractive (jaw/chin/mouth too narrow, eyes too close together), hence my objective is to surgically (or otherwise, but I see little concrete hope in such ventures) correct those deviations.

Now that we have established this, perhaps we could focus on surgical improvement.

Here is an image of my mother. Note that while she doesn't look "perfect" by any means, she has a harmonious (for some reason this image makes her nose looked crooked, which isn't the case) proportionate face with normal eye spacing and well-developed jaws. Wholly unsurprisingly she was considered attractive as a young woman though she had a very autistic and bland "personality".



What I desire in the looks department is nothing short of proportionality and clarity of skin. That is, what my ancestors looked like.

[PloskoPlus]

By "normal" I mean a face that doesn't have many discrepancies.  Pratt is proportionate before and after weightloss.

A lot of fat asses (men and women) have terrific bone structure under all that lard.

Drew Carey:



Young Drew Carey:

[Charles-Guillaume]

So that you all may judge my facial traits better, I will share another image of myself that I just found, taken with a good camera. I was about 17 years old back then, and suffered from severe acne and therefrom scarring.



In fact, if anyone would want to morph this pic to accomplish skin clarity, correct the close-set eyes, make the mandible deeper and more angular, cheekbones more pronounced, etc, I would be very grateful. It should be momentarily satisfying to view what could have been should my face have been better proportioned.

[Charles-Guillaume]

I'd say you objectively looked good enough to have a girlfriend

Unfortunately every girl I ever met disagreed.

My biggest problem I would say (now that the jaw is somewhat "fixed", though it still requires a chin wing to become "good" proper) is, as is indicated by the title of the thread, my eye area. Eyes are:

1.) Set too deep within the sockets, making them unexpressive and giving me a pseudo-browbone protrustion.

2.) Too close together. A mere 2-4 mm of additional space between them would make a hell of a difference.

3.) Too "cat-shaped", it looks feminine and weird (this is mostly a problem because the remainder of my face also lacks masculine dimorphism).

4.) Surrounded by strange layers of adipose tissue making the area look bloated. I have my eyebrows raised in this image--imagine what they look like with the brows at rest.

5. Poorly supported due to suborbital retrusion. Dark circles around the eyes due to insufficient zygomatic projection.

Unfortunately, many of these things are very very difficult to alter, or so I have gathered.

[jesterofmalice]

i'm still kind of confused about chin-wing.
It increases the height of the mandible? Gives a longer face?

[Charles-Guillaume]

i'm still kind of confused about chin-wing.
It increases the height of the mandible? Gives a longer face?

Yeah, my midface is of average length, but my chin height is too small. Anterior and posterior mandible height need to be increased by 7-11 mm (according to my calliper measurements as compared to a database of average facial dimensions). My philtrum is 13-15 mm (dead on average, the shorter measurement is postop and might be due to swelling), bizygomatic diameter dead on average, nose length average as can be, etc. The parts of my face that deviate considerably from average measurements are my eye spacing (5.9-6 cm, several mm below average) and chin height (around a cm shorter than average).

If you look closely, almost every attractive male has a deep, robust chin.



His face is overall slightly longer after photoshop, and literally all of this additional height comes from the chin. Philtrum/nose region was shortened.

[jesterofmalice]

yeah, that morph is crazy.
The guy is already fairly good looking, but the morph makes him look like an Armani model, lol.
Then by comparison when you go back to the original, he doesn't look as good as he did first time around.

Here's a shot I took ages ago.
In one of the pics that I labeled ('added bulk to bottom of chin and jawline), would that actually be something like a chin-wing?
At the time of making that image, I'd never heard of that procedure and didn't know such a think existed.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Charles-Guillaume]

Here's a shot I took ages ago.
In one of the pics that I labeled ('added bulk to bottom of chin and jawline), would that actually be something like a chin-wing?
At the time of making that image, I'd never heard of that procedure and didn't know such a think existed.

Yes, that is chin wing territory.



I desperately need one to make my lower face more proportionate and masculine.

[jesterofmalice]

in this picture, the girl on the right is actually a fair bit thinner than the girl on the left. She has less bodyfat.
However, the bigger girl on the left has a better defined face. Look at the mouth and chin area.
With the girl on the right, you can't really see her chin. You can a small circle/the 'button' of the chin, and then it all blends into the neck.
With the girl on the left, you can clearly see the outline and shape of the chin and it's well defined.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that she is the thinner of the two.
What is the difference here?
Is it that the girl on the left has a bigger lower palate? The whole chin area seems to be projected whereas with the slimmer girl, only the tip of the chin sticks out and then the rest seem to cave inwards.
Is that to do with size of pallete? Recessed mandible? retroclined teeth? Something else???

[Charles-Guillaume]

I appreciate the discussion bro, but could we take it elsewhere? Here in this thread I would like to focus on my own defects and how these could be altered for the better.

Anyhow, I think that her jaw looks better simply because, as you speculated, the entire segment is more projected, laterally as well as sagittally.

[jesterofmalice]

cool. My bad!

[Charles-Guillaume]

Facenit, you make sweeping generalisations (unsound ones, furthermore) based on very little evidence. I have chimed in on topics unrelated to my own specific sitaution, for example here:

http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,4523.msg37764.html#new

However, naturally I am going to focus on own toll here on this forum until I have picked up enough to accurately give others fruitful advice. I am not an educated maxillofacial surgeon or anything, I just know some of the stuff that pertains to my deformities. As my knowledge expands, I will be able to try to help others more frequently I hope.

In addition to the above, your assumptions about my behaviour when interacting with people in "the real world" are entirely faulty. I would assume (with sound probabilistic foundation) that you know nothing about my in the flesh encounters with other people, so it would be prudent of you not to play the psychoanalyst. I appreciate that you are trying to help me with an easy fix, but trust me when I tell you that I have tried every conceivable mode of interaction. I rarely talk about myself in social situations--people who know me in real life usually ask me why I'm so reluctant to to do so. I would NEVER talk to anyone except for my very closest friends and family about my issues with my appearance (internet activity excluded).

Everything you may think that you know about me is a chimera. This is simply one of my modes, one that is employed exclusively for this particular context.