Author Topic: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!  (Read 9686 times)

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Hello. I'm sorry for the thread's length, but there's a lot to be said.

I (now 21) went through a double-jaw orthognathic surgery in last September; I wore braces through about ages 14-16, but they didn't really get a good result (possibly creating or accentuating the issue) and the orthodontist was rather incompetent in foreseeing the requirement of a surgery and leading the treatment in that direction (he blatantly decided during our last meeting that he cannot close the open-bite I had any further and kind-of on-the-spot decided to remove the braces). Before going into surgery I basically had these issues:

There was an underbite -not extreme but still apparent- with a deviation of the lower midline by (I think) ~6mm to the left (the mandibular midline met the maxilla almost at the edge of the first left incisor), while there also was a frontal open-bite - possibly already more pronounced before the surgery at the left side of the mouth due to what seemed to me as an X-axis slant of the mandible, with the left teeth being lower than the right ones (except for the badly grown left mandibular wisdom tooth which they didn't ask to extract for some reason! - Probably also a part of the bad results).

When the staff at the hospital gave their assessment, they wanted at first to operate solely on the maxilla (while I've thought the whole issue is due to the mandible) as they believed it would result in a more steady bite, and that no-one would notice the off-center midline (suggesting only doing a genioplasty of the chin instead). They said it's rather the maxilla being sank-in and all sorts of BS, but eventually after several meetings with an orthodontist the hospital's lady-surgeon has suggested me (to get an opinion) whom argued the result wouldn't be good enough if they'll operate on the maxilla alone, they've agreed on doing a double surgery. Now, I need to point out - I was still in the army back than, and this type of surgery is usually (when deemed medically beneficial) covered over where I'm at in the civilian medical-care, but during the months I've been meeting with all these doctors they said that a recent change in the MC dropped this surgery's coverage, and thus that if I wouldn't manage to get it done before the end of my service I could end up paying full-price. Other than the braces I wore during school, I haven't had any pre-op orthodontics; the bite wasn't supposed to be 100% perfect at first and I was told I would need a small (as in "few months") orthodontic treatment post-op, but nonetheless they've said they've found a steady-enough bite and that it should be good for surgery. The part about the medical-care ended up being bull as it has been put back into the civilian MC program soon after, so the somewhat of a rushing wasn't too helpful in the end.

What was supposed to be done was an advancement of the maxilla with a posterior (I think) impaction, while the mandible was to be rotated to the right; they wanted to leave the mandible 1mm off-center as they thought it would be more stable. I can't even say that it felt steady to me while I was in a 6-weeks IMF, but they didn't care too much, brushing me off like another patient who knows nothing (believe me that I do my research and don't get exited over negligible stuff); I believe they simply didn't do the surgery right, but it most likely got even worse through the time my jaws have been shut. As soon as she took off my IMF, I could see it didn't sit exactly as planned - at first, when slightly opening (as your muscles are weak) and re-closing the mandible, it didn't keep the 1mm-to-the-left deviation - it was actually (superficially) more symmetrical; the doctor thought it came out even better than expected, but frankly it only showed that the results are unraveling as inconsistent with the pre-op plan. The more I could move my mouth the more I've seen how badly does it close: I had an underbite? Now I have an overbite. The teeth at the right side of my mouth actually closed pretty well in-between each other (in the cogwheel fashion) before? Now because of the overbite and the fact that the mandible's angle is more F'ed up than before (more on that later) maybe two teeth meet together, awkwardly at their tips. I didn't have any off-center deviation of my upper midline? I now have apparently a 1-2mm to the left, and it affects my nose as well. I was also left with an almost complete lack of sensation in the left side of my lower-lip and chin. I was told about 70-80% regain pretty much full sensation, so I'm not sure about this issue as well.

Basically, every orthodontist I've seen after the surgery didn't want to treat me or was very reluctant in suggesting so (in comparison to the "small post-op touch-ups" I was initially destined to need), and the one with whom I've met before the surgery said that while he doesn't remember my exact previous condition (I've only met him through a couple of months) and the plaster molds have been thrown by the hospital, it most definitely went wrong, and after a quick look said that the mandible is in a wrong position while the maxilla "seems to be 'pretty' ", though I now understand that wasn't exactly right as well.

I would have been somewhat less angry about the results if the surgeon at the damn hospital would have at least admitted what's very apparent to the naked eye - it doesn't look right, and it most definitely doesn't match the pre-op plans. But nope, she said it had probably only "retracted a bit at the mandible" so I was left with some overbite (now, I wasn't supposed to have the mandible shortened - so unless my bone has been reabsorbing like crazy, it couldn't get shorter, i.e. they didn't check the muscle tone during the surgery and thought to maxilla should be advanced more than it actually should've been), but I told her it's pretty obvious its angle is completely wrong - remember how the midline seemed generally consistent to her at the previous inspection (though it since then has settled back at around 1-2mm to the left [and don't forget that now the maxilla's midline became off-center as well])? I've seen it wide and clear through a simple self-inspection (and a surgeon from a different hospital I've recently seen agreed with me, saying I "explained what takes him several months to teach his students"), but the lady-surgeon either lied or is numb in her head as she declared it "impossible" - the left side of the mandible is actually still shorter than the right (you can even see how the left teeth are more posterior), but the midline is (again, SUPERFICIALLY) correct? "C'est impossible!" - Unless your doctor doesn't not their job, and then it's just simple geometry a 3yo would understand: the mandible is still pointing to the left, but it was sled as a whole to the right on the X-axis, so what happens now is the frontal part of it projecting to the left of where it begins. It also results in my jaw looking even less symmetrical than before as now the right side looks more swollen and... basically like the whole jaw is pointing to the left. She and an orthodontist she's brought to agree with her have brushed it off as "soft tissue... Has nothing to do with the jaw". That orthodontist also said he "could fix the bite" [using implants and sh*t I didn't need before] if I'm willing to commit into a full, 3-years-long orthodontic treatment. And she seemed fine with it. SERIOUSLY? They cannot admit how completely unrelated to any planned procedure it now is?

These were during the last time I've met the lady-surgeon, on the 6-months-post-op checkup. I realized how ridiculous is their lack of professionalism and went to an external dentist (whom of course agreed upon the results being bad, telling me "don't be offended, but it's a total mess" while stating that I should never go through an orthodontic treatment at this condition as it would ruin my teeth) whom referred me to a different hospital (she said she has had her internship there during the tenure of its previous head-of-department and that she considered it [at the time, at least] the best in the state... Though I've heard some good things of the lady-surgeon so it doesn't necessarily mean jack).

I met with the head of orthognathics of the new hospital about 3 weeks ago, and I had an appointment with an intern whom took some measures today; the head doctor was pretty astonished at how bad it is in comparison to the pre-op photos, and said that a complete re-surgery plan would be made after some more testings and with the plan of an orthodontist that would actually put braces on me this time (I met with one who said it should take less than a year, but I haven't started that as of yet). I asked him if there's a chance I only need to re-do the mandible and he answered he isn't sure yet, but I got the opinion they're both F'ed (remember the gift of asymmetry). He said that the surgery made a deformation I didn't have in the bones before and that now it would actually make into a more difficult surgery than if I would've come to him in my original condition.

I wonder if anyone has ever had to do a repeating surgery? Was anyone here left with numb parts? I asked the intern from the new hospital why does it always happen on the left lower lip and chin (as I've read/heard of a couple more who got these, even if they didn't have a rotation performed), and she said it isn't always there and could happen everywhere around the mouth. I don't think any nerve is supposed to be completely cut during the surgery, but the surgeon who made it said something about making a different incision to "bypass the nerve" on one side. I thought it was the left (as I thought it's always the problematic one), but as the intern said the nerves are symmetrical and sometimes people are left with numbness all around their mouth (that sounds TERRIBLE! I hope that's not really common at all), I'm not sure what was done here. The head surgeon of the new hospital said while looking at the post-op x-rays I've brought that for some reason they've "decided to make an asymmetrical surgery in the mandible"; I explained that the lady-surgeon said something about bypassing the nerve, but he said that he thinks they just had a problem with the un-extracted wisdom-tooth on the left side of the mandible, and when I explained I still have numbness he actually looked a bit surprised.

I'm basically afraid of it now damaging my nerves even further, and I don't know if there's any susceptibility of further problems to the bones and tissues under a repeating surgery. I also currently suffer from consistent clicks, popping sounds and mild pain in my left mandibular-joint.

Thanks to whoever has read this far.

Edit: here are the photos I've added in the comment.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 10:40:53 PM by SirUserName »

notrain

  • Private
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 480
  • Karma: 77
  • Gender: Male
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2015, 04:10:27 AM »
can you share your lateral cephalograms before and after the operation?

if possible, post some pics of your face as well.

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2015, 01:12:55 PM »
Hey. I currently have x-rays that were taken ~3 months after the surgery (in December), but I only had the pre-surgery ones as prints, and these are currently in the new hospital's orthoganthic department.

I'm adding a few photos I just took (I don't know if you can feel the deviation of the upper midline much from it, but it's there to an extent; either way, to my understanding the posterior impaction didn't even work as the frontal teeth are too high [or the back ones too low, perhaps - I don't need more gums showing]) and the lateral cephalogram I had taken in December (it is possibly not 100% identical to my current condition). I'd like to point out that after my left mandibular joint has been clicking like crazy for several weeks, it seems like the mandibular midline retracted to the left a bit further as well.

*As you can see, I have a missing premolar in the left side of my mandible and as a result the molars have tipped over and are positioned higher - you can't see it here but the third molar is really useless and too high in this configuration, yet as I've mentioned they didn't ask to extract it before the surgery, living it to possibly interfere with the bite.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 01:28:16 PM by SirUserName »

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2015, 04:06:19 AM »
Anyone?

notrain

  • Private
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 480
  • Karma: 77
  • Gender: Male
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2015, 02:13:30 PM »
There are members on this forum who had redo surgeries without adverse effects, so I wouldn't let that deter me if I was in your situation.

As for your current situation, I think you should probably get an implant in place of your missing tooth and then have your lower arch realigned orthodontically and then get the redo surgery.

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2015, 12:20:27 AM »
There are members on this forum who had redo surgeries without adverse effects, so I wouldn't let that deter me if I was in your situation.

As for your current situation, I think you should probably get an implant in place of your missing tooth and then have your lower arch realigned orthodontically and then get the redo surgery.

Well, as I still have been left with numbness which is probably greater than expected after the surgery, and that intern from the new hospital said there are even surgeries where you get numb all around the mouth (when I woke up I think I only had the numbness at the left lip and chin [which I still have] and the roof of my mouth, but this one seemed to get back pretty quickly; I also had a kind of numbness in my left mandibular teeth, but it seems mostly fine now), I wonder if that could get even worse (but who knows, maybe because the movement of the mandible was incorrect it actually stretched the nerve more than it should have).

Regarding the ortho - Yes, I was referred to that from the new hospital and the one who saw me said the ortho shouldn't be too long (less than a year), but regarding the missing tooth - he didn't say anything about it, but when I've asked the surgeon lady from the previous hospital she told me you don't do implants before the orthodontics.

Either way, I just want to be sure the correct thing is done this time. Not only did the first surgery not follow the original plans right, but I'm not even sure what they've suggested was really the correct procedure. When the new surgeon saw me he said my maxilla is too high at the front (even though I did have an impaction done), pointing out it also generates an "older look" in that angle. I saw several people at the forums being suggested to actually have the rotation performed at the mandible (rotating the chin higher). I wonder what would be correct in my case; the second option is not as stable from what I've read, but it should also strengthen the jawline - depending on the case?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 11:10:18 AM by SirUserName »

Gregor Samsa

  • Guest
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2015, 12:19:28 PM »
I would have been somewhat less angry about the results if the surgeon at the damn hospital would have at least admitted what's very apparent to the naked eye - it doesn't look right, and it most definitely doesn't match the pre-op plans.

They never admit any wrongdoing even if it's obvious. I don't know if it's for liability reasons or if they're just egocentric assholes (maybe both) but you should definitely get a second, third and maybe even fourth opinion from reputable surgeons. My first surgery experience was very similar to yours and now I'm looking to do a revision do things properly this time. I know several people on this forum who had revisions and were happy with the outcome so I think the risk/reward ratio is still very favorable in your case.

Where do you live? If you're in the US then I think paying Arnett and Gunson for a surgery plan would be worth it so you can bring it to consultations with other surgeons. I wouldn't waste any time on orthodontists at this point since they rarely sympathize with a desire to improve the aesthetics if the bite is already decent.

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2015, 01:33:20 PM »
They never admit any wrongdoing even if it's obvious. I don't know if it's for liability reasons or if they're just egocentric assholes (maybe both) but you should definitely get a second, third and maybe even fourth opinion from reputable surgeons. My first surgery experience was very similar to yours and now I'm looking to do a revision do things properly this time. I know several people on this forum who had revisions and were happy with the outcome so I think the risk/reward ratio is still very favorable in your case.

Where do you live? If you're in the US then I think paying Arnett and Gunson for a surgery plan would be worth it so you can bring it to consultations with other surgeons. I wouldn't waste any time on orthodontists at this point since they rarely sympathize with a desire to improve the aesthetics if the bite is already decent.

I live in Israel. It is kind of a part of the issue, because there isn't a great amount of options in this area as it is a small country and only (as far as I know) a handful of the hospitals perform these surgeries. Apart from the one I've had my first surgery at and the one I met the new surgeon at, I've heard of two others, and there are probably a couple of private practitioners. Before my surgery my sister actually found out a father of her employee/friend works in that medical area at a different hospital so she wanted me to try and meet him before it; I talked to him on the phone but it turned out he only performs implants etc. and suggested me, if I wanted a second opinion, to go to some sh*thole hospital up north which I didn't do. I did ask him if he knows the lady surgeon/department and he said that not personally but he knows they are supposed to be good. I can't say these anecdotal opinions hold up, so far.

Regarding the orthodontics, I should go through pre-op orthontic this time to get the bite right - so it's not regarding "orthodontic instead of surgery"; the orthodontist the lady surgeon brought was obviously an idiot, as my bite (look at the pictures) is anything but decent - both in orthodontics' potential and in its current aesthetic condition. As I mentioned, most doctors I've seen told me I'm no case for orthodontic-only as it would ruin my teeth.

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2015, 10:39:55 AM »
Hey. I see this thread hasn't received any further replies, but I wanted to add a question:

The head of orthognathy from the new hospital (which I actually haven't seen a second time yet, I've only got to meet a couple of times more with the intern) asked me to do a CT scan to see things he supposedly couldn't with the current x-rays. My mom (as per usual) freaked out about the radiation, considering I've already head a bunch of x-rays straight to my head, so I tried to contact them asking whether it could be switched to an MRI scan (which they tend to not-give-out in Israel due to being cheap bastards); I thought they'd possibly say it doesn't show the bone the same way and that's what the intern answered me. Well, I did the CT a few days ago, but a couple of things:

I received the disc with the scans; I can see half of them are dedicated to "Cervical Spine" (i.e. neck), which I doubt was really needed here. My mom asked me whether I was given a "neck cover" (concerning the thyroid), which I wasn't, though I thought about asking them but eventually didn't. Should I have been given one? Are all of those neck images necessary? I assume 'no', and I doubt a lead guard over the neck would've blocked the TMJ as well.

And more specifically, this is the dose chart from the CD. I don't remember what exact examples have I read for head scans before, but I think this is larger. Is it?

[attachment deleted by admin]

molestrip

  • Private
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: 40
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2015, 01:25:04 PM »
Ask for a CBCT, 1/10 the radiation of a medical CT. All things being equal, less radiation is better but the risks are very low still and its indicated so don't sweat it. I've had 3 on my head + 3 CBCTs and will have a pelvic exam this week. My brother is a radiologist and my dad a doctor, both tell me not to worry. I checked myself of course and could elaborate but this post would get too long.

Anyway, I have an anterior open bite too. Your case looks pretty decent actually. Our cases are similar but to different degrees. We likely share a similar gene pool though ;) Where ours differs is that you simply have a maloclussion at this point, I don't see any other funcitonal issues. People do repeat surgeries, you can, but the risks increase short and long term. In your case, I'd opt for orthodontic camouflage. Remove the wisdom teeth and find an orthodontist to intrude the molars with TADs. You should be able to fix the asymmetry that way. It's not as bad as you'd think because a little movement in the rear makes a big difference in the front. You've got eye shadows but, really, you're fine I don't think you need repeat surgery.

I did a virtual consult with Dr Alfaro in Spain, not too far for you, and had a favorable impression of him. He's a volume provider with clients from Africa and Asia. We have one member on this board who had surgery with him from the UK and gave a glowing review. His selling point is a minimally invasive surgery, the biggest innovation being smaller incisions particularly for the maxilla. I think his website oversells it a bit but he's a good, conservative surgeon and it'd only cost you $200. You'll get more out of the consult if you can get a CBCT first.

As for nerve damage, it happens more often than surgeons claim. With your procedure, I'm very surprised to hear that. I suspect your surgeon cut the nerve. Happened to a guy in my office too. Could regenerate up to 3 years post op, give it time. Depending on location, could have been repairable potentially in the first few months afterwards. Your the first person to complain about it, everyone else I spoke to said they quickly forget about it and move on. You just had bad luck. Sorry.

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 03:51:27 PM »
Hey.
Well, I've already had the CT as I mentioned in the previous reply, so doing another one would be counterintuitive; I don't know whether I had a "regular" one or a CBCT, to be frank. Is there a way to tell?

Regarding my current condition: A. From what I keep hearing it's in many cases not suspected to be genetic (and I had a perfect bite as a young child so it's most certainly not congenital) but rather a result of things like an injury to the TMJ, bad muscle tone and so-forth during the growth period. I suspect it only became present, at least towards the level I had before the first surgery, while I went through my orthodontic treatment from 9th to 11th grade. I can't speak highly of the orthodontist, so who knows - maybe he at least managed to amplify the issue? Either way, that aspect of this is somewhat of a concern to me as I wonder whether it does stem from a genetic basis which could transfer to any children I'll might have. This isn't present in any of my siblings or parents, so I'm more leaning towards it being a result of environmental causes rather than an isolated "genetic defect" or lousy mom-dad chromo-combo.

B. With it supposedly not affecting functionality - it most certainly does. Both my eating and my speaking are more cumbersome than before the surgery. I have more of a struggle pronouncing certain consonants, and I also suffer from constant "knucks" in my left TMJ (you could hear them from across the room). Basically, none of the several orthodontists I have seen after the surgery wanted to treat me as it is; only the one who's done my treatment during school reluctantly agreed to one. Well, there was also the one the lady-surgeon brought with her during the last time I've met her, when she simply wouldn't admit the surgery went wrong - and he said kind of nonchalantly that he could fix it using what I suspect are the TADs you mentioned, but then again he spoke of a full 2-3 years treatment instead of what should have been a few months of fine-tuning after the surgery had it been successful. The asymmetry of the jaw and bite would not be fixed through orthodontics. I know it's still not the most extreme case you could find, but it's just "not it". Believe me - I would have loved it to work as expected and to not-need to go through this whole BS once again, but what can I do. Regarding the "eye shadows" - what's that? You mean the "bags"? I probably always had these. Is that even related?

About the Spanish doctor - well, I do have a sense the best option might be abroad, but I'm not sure any medicare here would cover these. I know it's not a small thing and I've probably rushed into surgery under a retarded surgeon which I shouldn't have, but it is very expensive and I hope that I would get a better, more solid impression of this surgeon or possibly someone else local. I'll try to sniff-around better this time (though what I did manage to get on the lady-surgeon who's done my surgery was overall good, but probably not from enough sources); this new surgeon actually asked me during our first (and until tomorrow, only) appointment whether I'd like him to connect me to a forum with the rest of his patients (which I assume have-went or will-go under his knife), so possibly he's less reluctant to reveal other patients to me, which is a good sign.

Regarding the nerve damage - I'm not sure I'm following. You said it "happens more often than surgeons claim", but that "with (my) procedure, (you are) very surprised to hear that". You mean there are other types of procedures where it happens more often than said, but that in mine it shouldn't have? The surgeon said they didn't cut the nerve, but frankly (I don't remember whether I've mentioned that already) - for the surgery, as I didn't actually have pre-op orthodontics, the surgeon said that if I want to shorten the surgery by about 40 minutes I should have brackets glued-on specifically for the purpose of using them with the IMF instead of their own non-brackets wire which takes longer to put during the surgery. Well, when I woke up I saw only my upper teeth had the brackets on while the lower ones had something else (I was too swollen to see exactly). She then said (while kind of laughing) that while they were trying to knot-together the two jaws the lower brackets (or at least some of them) suddenly fell off. How abruptly? I have no idea. They then had to use for the lower teeth a technique in which the wire was passed in-between my teeth to "tie it in", I suppose. Let me remind you that for whatever reason, I only had a tiny metal-plate screwing my lower jaw to the rest of the face solely on the left side (*the one that's now numb) - how much movement was forced on the basically free-hanging jaw while the brackets started falling-off, they took the rest of them out and then they pushed the wires in-between all of the teeth? I'm afraid that even if they haven't actually initially damaged the left nerve, they caused more movement while going through the IMF and got it at least partially-torn. It possibly didn't affect the right nerve as the incision there (for whatever reason) was different and most likely less proximate to the nerve.

And were you saying you're Jewish? We are known for some hereditary diseases (*ahm* cousin marriages *ahm*), but I'm not sure jaw deformities are part of the Jew-deformities (and only my father is Ashkenazi... so I think that mostly negates the issue).

Edit: Also, if it might show anything better, the hospital asked me last month to also have another cephalometric as the previous one apparently had some issues (and was from only ~3 months after the surgery, if that matters). Yup, I was a big 0-day-old baby on the day it was taken.

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 04:16:24 PM by SirUserName »

molestrip

  • Private
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: 40
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2015, 02:36:24 PM »
Difference would be in resolution and radiation between CT and CBCT. Resulting images are the same, no matter. Don't redo if you have it done already but given the time of the old one, sounds like a redo is warranted. Don't worry about radiation, it's fine really and I'm nutty about it. I just had a cat scan with contrast this morning elsewhere.

Growth is complicated but there's only a few ways it can fail. You can grow too little. Too much. or Asymmetric. It's roughly a total measure of health, from womb to adulthood so anything can cause it, from malnutrition to chronic illness to poor sleep to mouth breathing. It certainly could have been congenital, wombs have remarkable ability to deform people and it's not always apparent at all ages. Orthodontists in the 80s-90s often times made problems worse, especially if you had headgear. No matter, it's done now you need to fix it. Don't worry about passing on to kids, allergies affect 30% of the planet and growing and much of it is lifestyle. Find a healthy wife and make sure she eats a diverse, nutritious diet.

An open bite would certainly cause problems. You've got popping of your TMJ, that's not good but not a problem unless persists past one year. Your disc is getting displaced behind the condyle. Eventually it'll heal and stop or get stuck behind and you'll move on to the grinding sounds until a pseudisc of scar tissue forms in its place. Hard to know how to proceed with that, might sway you to surgery if the condyle is displaced. Yes I was referring to bags. They're related in etiology but no matter, forget them if not bothering you hard to fix anyway.

You'll have to pay for surgery outside Israel and it's not cheap. At least $50k, maybe more without insurance. He does some procedures outpatient, maybe you could get away with that and save some money. He might work with you on the price if you're tactful about it. You're not the first person to pick a surgeon poorly and won't be the last. In fact, you're case is typical but many people get lucky thanks to the misfortune of a few. Crap like this happens too. Very difficult for people to evaluate surgeons on their own and may get distracted by the wrong qualities.

What I meant is that the 10% rate for nerve damage is lower than what I've seen in practice. I think surgeons don't care too much and tend to be generous to themselves about it. OTOH, it's a function of procedure done and your particular movements were low risk. Not impossible, just saying for your level of paresthesia I'm surprised and suspicious that the nerve may have been cut. Happens sometimes, especially with surgeons out of practice. Happened to a guy in my office but doesn't bother him. Surgeon needs imaging to determine if nerve was cut, may not admit it. You can get a 2nd opinion there.

Everyone I've spoken to who had the arch bars hated them. I don't know why surgeons keep using them, I guess many people don't post online about them who liked them. But having braces pre-op helps because the teeth move faster when making minor adjustments during the healing phase. It's possible they caused damage in that phase when the arch bars came off. Surgeons can be rough but it's also normal to rely on the plates while you're healing. I still don't really see how the bite opened up during healing. You don't seem like the type not to follow instructions. Maybe her instructions were bad or you just had long term relapse.

You should know at this point braces aren't risk free either. Root resorption, cavities, periodontal defects, TMJ, all possibilities. 2 years is about average for an adult but ask surgeon during consult about the relative risks at this point. You can do the consult without committing to surgery. Just $200.

I am Jewish, some intermarriage but more at the town level. I tested negative for all the diseases, my wife is carrier for lots of them. You look sephardic though. There's Ashkenazi intelligence and they're also more resistant to plague. In fact, Ashkenazi Jews are the most resistant to HIV as a result. 1/13 are supercontrollers, compared to 1/300 for the general population. So I wouldn't complain about it too much :) A bit off topic lol. Anyway, I think I covered it all, feel free to PM if I missed anything. Long posts tend to cause people to gaze over and the conversation dies.

terry947

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
  • Karma: 15
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2015, 08:42:48 PM »
How can you tell if your condyle is displaced??  I hear poping sounds, but to me it sounds like my ear tubes are popping and not my actual tmj.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 12:58:42 AM by terry947 »

molestrip

  • Private
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 735
  • Karma: 40
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2015, 10:14:44 PM »
I've had the ear tube popping sometimes too. That's a different phenomenon. TMJ disc displacement is usually loud I hear. Like, people on the other side of the room can hear it loud. Ear tube popping is very quiet and comes and goes, with congestion typically. You can also get an MRI.

SirUserName

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: -1
Re: After a failed double-jaw surgery, I want to hear some opinions!
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2015, 07:42:03 PM »
I did this CT only about a week ago. Why would I need another one (mind you that I had no CT taken before my surgery)?

Regarding the origin of the condition - I was saying that there are certainly cases where babies are actually born with visible deformities of such kinds, or at least have them developed very early-on. I didn't go through too many pictures, but from a few I've found with the smile wide-open I had not a millimeter of asymmetry/discrepancy between the jaws during my kindergarten/elementary years. It seems to have had its evenness impaired at some point, so I suspect it having more of an external cause while the orthodontics I had certainly didn't help. The fact that some of the molars came out quite badly placed and I haven't had them extracted in time might have also helped.

Regarding the nerve damage - what is the procedure to analyze its current condition and whether it has been cut? And can/should the surgeon be able to tell the condition of my joint from the CT?

I assume what I have described being applied over my lower teeth are the arch bars - I'm not sure what were you referring to with the "teeth movement" and "adjustment", but as I was saying, I had brackets (of braces) glued onto my teeth about 2 days before the surgery, and what fell off were the lower brackets; the arch bars were put onto the lower teeth after some of the brackets there apparently didn't hold so they've replaced that whole lower set.

Regarding the healing process - I don't know what exactly has happened, but I suspect it wasn't actually put in a good position and basically what I had was my mandibular muscles held in an unnatural position by the IMF. There was probably a continuing relapse as well (though I was indeed apparently more concerned about being cautious while healing than the doctors), but I think that pretty much as soon as I had my IMF released and my muscles started to "untighten" I saw the bite closed at an absolute different position than intended.

Now I can also add what the surgeon from the new hospital had to say after looking at my CT a few days ago: he had it converted into a 3D model (I was concerned about artifacts but he said it seems fine) and basically told me that the lower jaw shows as if no movement was performed (!). Something is still different horizontally, so I wonder if it has really completely relapsed into its original position, but as they've apparently managed to get my upper jaw a bit off into the left, it could simply confirm my suspicion that even the somewhat of an "improvement" they kept saying I have in my midline is actually just a de-alignment of the upper midline. Great.

And, uh... Both of my father's parents were from Latvia, while my mother, hm... I don't think she knows exactly, because she kept calling her family Sephardis 6 generations in Jerusalem, but when I checked it a bit (considering a European passport... Latvia isn't currently providing dual-citizenship with Israel) I retrieved her grandmother being Sephardi (and she only spoke Ladino), but the rest seem to be Tripolitian, which aren't Sephardi as far as I understand. Either way, I'm not sure you can say much from these pictures (both being cropped and having a tinted lighting), but I would say I was completely blond and blue-eyed as  a toddler. Kind of changed shades later on.