If your occlusion is fine and you're not deformed, is jaw surgery worth it?

[skippy]

I probably got a mild case of short face, when i smile, my upper dental arch is only scarcely exposed. I could probably like most white people also benefit from some more maxillary forward growth too. That said, i'm not deformed or ugly. MY bite is fine. I just want to improve my facial aesthetics. I'm 25

how realistic is this pic and the wanted bone augmentation? Would they prevent me from having to wear braces?

[buzzhead]

Actually what you show is pretty much what I just had done this past week.  Except I suffered from sleep apnea so had to have the airway opened.

[jesterofmalice]

This is what i've been asking myself recently.
It's a big decision and could be extremely expensive, but at the moment i'm trying to save up money with the intention of some sort of jaw surgery.

I have a bad bite (overbite and crossbite on one side), but it doesn't seem to really effect me. I don't have any pain in my jaws, I can eat fine, etc etc.

I basically see myself as a little on the ugly side, and I think that moving my jaws forward could potentially make me at least somewhat 'attractive'.

I also worry that, since I don't think i'm 'deformed' (as you put it) then I run the risk of losing whatever it is about my face that seems to make some people think that i'm OK looking, should surgery not work out as I expect.
Even though I see my face as a little 'off', I am occasionally told that i'm 'not ugly'.

It's a shame that the outcome of surgery seems so unpredictable

[Breakingbad]

I also worry that, since I don't think i'm 'deformed' (as you put it) then I run the risk of losing whatever it is about my face that seems to make some people think that i'm OK looking, should surgery not work out as I expect.
Even though I see my face as a little 'off', I am occasionally told that i'm 'not ugly'.

Yes, that seems to be the case for many of us, looking off as you say. The only hope then is that by studing everything through, doing enough consultations, and careful planning, one can know what is needed and what isn't, and go into surgery knowing that everything SHOULD go well. Tough enterprise.

What is it that makes you look "off" though?

[jesterofmalice]

What is it that makes you look "off" though?

I think my face looks chubby (especially when I smile) no matter how lean I am or how low my body fat percentage is.
After YEARS of wasting time getting my body fat down to very low levels through daily intensive exercise and being utterly confused as to why my face still seemed 'shapeless' and heavy, I finally realised that it must be to do with my jaws being recessed and just not having enough bone in general to support the underlying tissues properly.

I also look very young for my age (which isn't a good thing in your late 20's no matter what people say) as well as often being asked why I look so serious or why I am frowning or why I am looking 'scared', lol. I think this is due to a *form* of early jowelling often seen in people with deep bites with recessed jaws. Can make the face look short, too. It is the position of the chin caused by a deep overbite that makes the normal sized chin appear significantly smaller and the lower face shorter.

Despite not having an especially big nose in terms of measurements, it looks quite big on my face.  Advancing the jaws is often said to make peoples nose look a lot smaller. (however, it can also make it look wider which is one concern of mine, as I already have massive nostrils!)

I basically don't like my face is most photographs (I've posed one or two on this site).
I think I know what I need, but i'm yet to get a ceph ($$$) which I hope would confirm my thoughts.

I play with the idea of something like damon braces alone, but I imagine i'd be dissapointed and am being sold by the clever marketing that claims to be able to 'lift' the face (which I feel as though I need) which I likely wouldn't notice!

[buzzhead]

I do wonder - what actual % of jaw surgery cases involve complications though? For the most part they seem to be relatively stable proceedures from all the research ive done and people I've spoken to in the field, however whenever I come on this forum theres always a new thread about how much someone regrets the proceedure or how they are still numb years later...

Could it be a case of different levels of maxillofacial expertise depending on the country? I've only heard good things about the surgeons i've consulted with.

I also wondered about this and what made me jump in so to speak was living (or not living) with sleep apnea.  I took some comfort though from people who had the procedure that we are probably more inclined to hear from those with bad experiences.  Those that work out may not be inclined to comment and to move on with their lives.

I just found out that a local person of mine just had a redo back in June. They had a bimax done before the lower jaw completely grew so had to go in several years later to have it pulled back in.  They put themselves through it twice. So........I don't know.  A call we all have to make on our own.  I hope that I can have some success with what I have had done and not at least totally regret it.

[jesterofmalice]

Someone on here told me that my maxilla looks vertically deficient. I don't actually see it, personally, but it could well be the reason! who knows!

But if it was 'lengthened', wouldn't that give me a really gummy smile?
Or Do they like cut a slice out of the back of the maxilla (effectively lowering your top molars so the bite meets lower)?
Maybe you can draw me some picture in pain, because I struggle to get my head around what most of the surgeries talked about on this sire actually entail!

I often get the feeling that adding mass/bone almost 'anywhere' on my face would give me improvement, in the sense that it would 'stretch' out the tissue. So moving the jaws forward, or making them wider, or bigger cheekbones, or a sharper jaw angle/lengthen the ramus etc etc etc.
It's why I often wonder about things like a faceflit and other camouflage surgeries as a possible, cheaper, less invasive alternative

And yes, I'd never realised until recently that if I  shove my fingers on top of my 2 front teeth (mimicking the effect of advancing the upper jaw) my big nose disappears!

I find that some pictures of my taken at a distance best highlight the issues I hate about my face. Maybe I can PM you a few, seeing as we seem to have similar concerns!

[skippy]

I often get the feeling that adding mass/bone almost 'anywhere' on my face would give me improvement, in the sense that it would 'stretch' out the tissue. So moving the jaws forward, or making them wider, or bigger cheekbones, or a sharper jaw angle/lengthen the ramus etc etc etc.
It's why I often wonder about things like a faceflit and other camouflage surgeries as a possible, cheaper, less invasive alternative

And yes, I'd never realised until recently that if I  shove my fingers on top of my 2 front teeth (mimicking the effect of advancing the upper jaw) my big nose disappears!

Legit.

I got the same deal, my face seems to lack the needed bone structure to get that taut skin/masculine -angularity look. If i slighty suck in my cheeks, pout my lips and use my fingers to push the skin at my jaw angles to simulate stronger gonial angles, my face looks insanly better. Feels like i'm millimeters away from looking significantly more attractive.

Then i read all these complains about jaw surgery, how lefort 1 will transform you to a chimp and ZSO give you that jigsaw look. Basically a death sentence regarding angularity...

get potentially f**ked up trying to look good or stay average/ugly i guess

[jesterofmalice]

Legit.

I got the same deal, my face seems to lack the needed bone structure to get that taut skin/masculine -angularity look. If i slighty suck in my cheeks, pout my lips and use my fingers to push the skin at my jaw angles to simulate stronger gonial angles, my face looks insanly better. Feels like i'm millimeters away from looking significantly more attractive.

Then i read all these complains about jaw surgery, how lefort 1 will transform you to a chimp and ZSO give you that jigsaw look. Basically a death sentence regarding angularity...

get potentially f**ked up trying to look good or stay average/ugly i guess

Exactly! We're on the same page.
What your bite like? What's your plan regarding surgeries?(if any)
You have any pics here?

[PloskoPlus]

I think if you look normal, stick with what you got.  Work on dressing well, white teeth, keep yourself as sharp as you can.... And have things to talk about, be well rounded.  That all goes a long way.

White teeth are genetic. I did the take home kit thing first, 2 weeks ago I blasted my teeth at the  dentists (hurt like hell!). Looked great for all of 3 days. Teeth are returning to their natural yellow state in no time. I had surgery to increase tooth show. The irony.

[jesterofmalice]

If i pout my lips and use my fingers to push the skin at my jaw angles to simulate stronger gonial angles, my face looks insanly better.

I find I don't even need to pout.
If I just, ever-so-lightly pull the flesh near my cheekbones back and up then I feel I stop looking so ugly. It lifts the 'downturned' upperlip and the mouth, and it gives my face a little much needed definition.

I keep wondering if there's a simply cosmetic operation that i'm failing to consider that could achieve this, and, if there is, I could combine it with something like Damon braces, and maybe get enough improvement to make me happier in my skin (even though I imagine it wouldn't be close to the improvement that jaw surgery could potentially give me)


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[jesterofmalice]

Im sure there are many more well-versed people here like lazlo ploskoplus notrain etc who could help you but at a brief glance it seems you are not well supported around the mouth area (I have a similar looking mouth region myself and Paul Johnson said I'd benefit from advancement as I'm very 'badly' supported) and I would guess you'd also stand to benefit. I forgot - did you actually ever have a maxfac consultation?

I've not had a maxfac consultation yet.
Paul Johnson is in Guildford? Did you just arrange a consultation through his website without a referral required? How much did it cost you for the consultation? And any idea on jaw surgery price with him??

As you say, I'm also pretty sure where my issues lie, and that I would benefit from advancement, but at the same time, the fact that If I 'lift' the soft tissue (so lightly, to the point that I barely apply any pressure) my sad, downturned mouth improves, I find myself wondering about 'alternatives'. (cleverly placed fillers? some sort of mini facelift? skin tightening procedures? Damon braces and the 'bracelift' effect???) (Possibly all an expensive waste of time, though!......)
I know that I'd still look a little recessed from profile view, and certainly far from perfect, but 'lifting' the face does seem to help improve lots of the problems with my face. It even helps give me a chin from the front view

[Gregor Samsa]

Paul Johnson is in Guildford? Did you just arrange a consultation through his website without a referral required? How much did it cost you for the consultation? And any idea on jaw surgery price with him??

You just arrange it through the website. I can't remember exactly how much the consultation ended up costing me but it was pretty expensive. I think it was 250 pounds for just the consultation and if you don't have any x-rays etc then that will add to the cost. He's the first guy I would see if I lived in the UK though.

[jesterofmalice]

Man... you seriously have been asking these questions for what I believe is months and you havent actually even consulted with a maxfac? Thats moronic.

I know, man. I am a bit of a moron if truth be told.
But I just wanted to save up lots of money so that i'm in a position to be able to afford surgery once I know what I want.
Still got a good few K to go, but i'll get there!

[jesterofmalice]

We have an expression for such behavior and it's called 'mental masturbation'. But maybe that's better than actually undergoing expensive and potentially dangerous surgery with high long term nerve damage rate, which may be totally unnecessary as it's often the case on these boards.

It might look like mental 'masturbation', but I promise that I do intend to Fvck at some point.
I'm just very cautious when it comes to such things as i've seen lots of 'afters' of people getting their jaws moved in the way I think I need, and i've been VERY underwhelmed by some of the results. I want to make sure that there's no other 'alternatives' before I start throwing money at surgeons.
I've got about 8K GBP saved up (not easy on a minimum wage job) and when I get to 10K or so, I'll have enough to be able to do some consultations and then jump straight into getting the ball rolling.
It's just how I want to do things, but I can assure you, it's not all just theory. Either jaw surgery or coesmtic procedures WILL happen!

Jester you are right with your observation you look so much better when you lift your under cheek aerea.
I know the procedure which can give you better support on this region of the face. Its called
submalar  implants (not the same as malar/cheek implants its under your cheek not on your cheeks that it will give you more support). Many plastic surgeon can do this surgery its not invasive. The cuts for the implants will be in your mouth.
Look here:
http://www.customfacialimplants.com/submalar-augmentation.htm
and some results:
http://www.customfacialimplants.com/photo-gallery-before-after-submalar-implants-4.htm

And most astonishing result on a woman that I have ever seen with malar and submalar implants:
http://www.drhaworth.com/procedures/cheek-implants

So I came to the conclusion that implants can give equally good results like zygomatic oestotomie. But Jester as said your problem is below your zygos your submalar region is recessed the zygos looks good developped on you. And can I give you an advice......dont wear this hillarious glasses you look like someone in the 1800 century make laser surgery for your eyes or contact lenses but dont wear this glasses....

Honestly I dont think you have weak jaw and jaw surgery in your case is too invasive period. now tumerican say to me that I only talk bulls**t...

I'll look into that.
I also tried 'copying' my mouth from the picture of me pulling the flesh up, and pasting just the mouth on the original, and it actually looks a fair bit better than the original.
It's now go me thinking that, from the front, my mouth shape is actually a bigger issue that I first realised
(although possibly a very easy/cheap thing to fix? WOuld it be a 'CORNER  lip lift or something??)

PS - Your comment about my hilarious glasses, (although offensive), genuinely made me giggle when I read it!
I can't help but find such brutal honesty amusing!!

cheers