Misaligned jaws and posture

[Dogmatix]

I would like to discuss if there's any relation between posture and corrective jaw surgery. I've been trying to discuss this with different specialist and I'm very frustrated as no one want to address these questions and the doctors seems very annoyed with me asking about this, I've even been told that this is ridiculous and that I have no business there if I'm not going to trust them. It may be ridiculous, but it's also ridiculous for a doctor not to treat me with respect and give me a proper answear.


When I go to the dentists office, I'm always asked to tilt my head backwards, and show my bite. My experience from being examined this way is that my lower jaw slides backwards and the overbite is increased. When I sit at home examining my bite, I notice a clear difference in how my teeth meet depending on how I hold my head. If I look up in the ceiling, the bite is as at the dentists office, but if I tilt my head to look at the floor, I experience the opposite and the lower jaw slides forward. If I hold my head at what I think is a correct posture and bite, I notice that my molars don't meet and I only have occlusion between some of the canins, and if I continue to bite deeper, it feels like my neck is tilted back as in the dentists office, and I land in a bad posture and occlusion between the molars as well.

So from my point of view, it's like the doctors focus on the overbite, but to me it's more about that the angle of the upper of lower jaw is incorrect and what I need first is that the molars of the upper and lower jaw gets closer, to hold my neck up, and then maybe there will be room for some additional movements to get the lower jaw forward.

I'll attach a picture that sort of explains what I mean.
https://imgur.com/a/d1HhP

And also the following link showing the same thing.
http://starecta.com/body-posture-depends-teeth/

So what I want to discuss is if this a ridiculous claim from me that the posture and spine needs to be addressed when performing a corrective jaw surgery, and that my neck pain and bad posture can be related to bad jaw position. What I'm afraid of with a jaw surgery is that they might only slide my lower jaw forward and lock in the neck problem I have even further.

[kavan]

I would like to discuss if there's any relation between posture and corrective jaw surgery. I've been trying to discuss this with different specialist and I'm very frustrated as no one want to address these questions and the doctors seems very annoyed with me asking about this, I've even been told that this is ridiculous and that I have no business there if I'm not going to trust them. It may be ridiculous, but it's also ridiculous for a doctor not to treat me with respect and give me a proper answear.


When I go to the dentists office, I'm always asked to tilt my head backwards, and show my bite. My experience from being examined this way is that my lower jaw slides backwards and the overbite is increased. When I sit at home examining my bite, I notice a clear difference in how my teeth meet depending on how I hold my head. If I look up in the ceiling, the bite is as at the dentists office, but if I tilt my head to look at the floor, I experience the opposite and the lower jaw slides forward. If I hold my head at what I think is a correct posture and bite, I notice that my molars don't meet and I only have occlusion between some of the canins, and if I continue to bite deeper, it feels like my neck is tilted back as in the dentists office, and I land in a bad posture and occlusion between the molars as well.

So from my point of view, it's like the doctors focus on the overbite, but to me it's more about that the angle of the upper of lower jaw is incorrect and what I need first is that the molars of the upper and lower jaw gets closer, to hold my neck up, and then maybe there will be room for some additional movements to get the lower jaw forward.

I'll attach a picture that sort of explains what I mean.
https://imgur.com/a/d1HhP

And also the following link showing the same thing.
http://starecta.com/body-posture-depends-teeth/

So what I want to discuss is if this a ridiculous claim from me that the posture and spine needs to be addressed when performing a corrective jaw surgery, and that my neck pain and bad posture can be related to bad jaw position. What I'm afraid of with a jaw surgery is that they might only slide my lower jaw forward and lock in the neck problem I have even further.

The jaw surgeons won't be addressing your spine during the surgery. So, your discussion would be limited to practitioners who can help with the postural problem BEFORE you get jaw surgery. Looks like one of the links is one where the Italian entrepreneurs behind it want you to invest in their product.

[Chello]

From what I've read about this a recessed jaw reduces the size of your airway so you adjust your posture by moving your head forward to take in more air. I would think that once your jaw has been aligned and you can take in more air you would be able to work on your posture.  My son was told by his dentist / orthodontist (not sure which) that he should try to breathe through his nose as mouth breathing can change the shape of your face, so it makes sense that it could affect posture too. I don't know if poor posture causes a recessed jaw, or the recessed jaw leads to poor posture.

Sorry your specialist is not being helpful, I found the doctors I saw in the 80s extremely dismissive when I tried to discuss what had caused my problems. Can you discuss it with another specialist to get another opinion?

[Dogmatix]

Are you a mouth breather? I think that bad posture is more linked to mouth breathing than to jaw posture. But, an overbite can definitely cause mouth breathing and thus bad posture.

It's always funny when someone asks this question, and you start thinking about your breathing and try to remember how you did it before you started thinking about it . No, I don't think I'm a mouth breather, at least not while awake, not sure what's going on when I sleep. I see that you focus on the overbite, but the point in my post was kind of that I'm not sure that my problems is an overbite issue primarily, but more the angle and position of the occlusal plane.

[Dogmatix]

The jaw surgeons won't be addressing your spine during the surgery. So, your discussion would be limited to practitioners who can help with the postural problem BEFORE you get jaw surgery. Looks like one of the links is one where the Italian entrepreneurs behind it want you to invest in their product.

So this is kind of the problem, to me there are chickens and eggs involved here, what comes first? When I talk about spine, I dont mean the entire spine, but more the upper part, shoulders and up that is affected of the heads position and the occlusal plane.
As I said, I tried discussing this with my orthodontist, when looking at my bite. I put my head in what I figure is a straight position and bite, which gives me a malocclusion since my teeth are not aligned for this and I've grown into another bite. This was with the same orthodontist that called me ridiculous, and the reaction was something like, oh no, you dont fool me, and he shoves my jaw back and tilt my head backwards.

When you say that I need to address the postural problems before getting surgery, that kind of answears the question that you don't believe that there's any real cause from from misaligned jaws.

[kavan]

So this is kind of the problem, to me there are chickens and eggs involved here, what comes first? When I talk about spine, I dont mean the entire spine, but more the upper part, shoulders and up that is affected of the heads position and the occlusal plane.
As I said, I tried discussing this with my orthodontist, when looking at my bite. I put my head in what I figure is a straight position and bite, which gives me a malocclusion since my teeth are not aligned for this and I've grown into another bite. This was with the same orthodontist that called me ridiculous, and the reaction was something like, oh no, you dont fool me, and he shoves my jaw back and tilt my head backwards.

When you say that I need to address the postural problems before getting surgery, that kind of answears the question that you don't believe that there's any real cause from from misaligned jaws.

IF you have a forward head posture, I don't see what precludes you discussing that and seeking physical therapy for that from a practioner (perhaps a chiropracter) who can help with the proper alignment.

IF you can post a link to practitioners who have some kind of method for correcting jaw position so that the head posture is in straight alignment and no more forward head posture, I don't see what precludes you from looking into that further.

Clearly, you need to seek out some kind of practioner (other than your dentist/ortho) who can help obtain the proper head posture relative to the neck whether it's by fixing the 'chicken' (neck alignment) or the 'egg' (jaw and tongue posture).

I don't know what you need other than to find a practioner who's on target with what ever you think the problem is.

[Dogmatix]

IF you have a forward head posture, I don't see what precludes you discussing that and seeking physical therapy for that from a practioner (perhaps a chiropracter) who can help with the proper alignment.

I almost feel like you're attacking me, asking me to defend what I'm asking for. I'm here asking questions, seeking advices and trying to understand how everything relate. I can of course seek physical therapy, chiropractors etc. I've done so in the past, and I can do so again. The reason why I'm asking here is because I've gone through a lot of this, and when orthognatic surgery proposed as an option, it's absolutely important for me that I understand every aspect of it and don't make anything worse.

IF you can post a link to practitioners who have some kind of method for correcting jaw position so that the head posture is in straight alignment and no more forward head posture, I don't see what precludes you from looking into that further.

I don't have such link. Again, I don't have the answers for this. I wanted to ask in this forum, because this might be a well know topic and people could point me in the right direction or educate me. I can only explain how I experience my bite and why I'm terrified of surgery. The only thing that's worse than not fixing a problem, is fixing it in an incorrect way. I don't think forward head posture is an accurate description, more like backward tilted posture.

Clearly, you need to seek out some kind of practioner (other than your dentist/ortho) who can help obtain the proper head posture relative to the neck whether it's by fixing the 'chicken' (neck alignment) or the 'egg' (jaw and tongue posture).

I don't know what you need other than to find a practioner who's on target with what ever you think the problem is.

It seems accurate that I need to seek help from someone who can target the problem. I don't know if you rule out maxilofacial surgeons as well when you talk about orthodontics, or if you still think that's on the table and that they might understand this?

The problem I've experienced with orthodontics and jaw surgery is that there's so much business around this that I'm stuck with trust issues, not knowing who actually want to help me in the best way possible, and who want to sell me treatment plans. My orthodontic is the one proposing surgery to me to get the best result, but after profile x-ray he told me that I didn't meet the qualifications to get it from the hospital, and unfortunately that's the only way here. So I'm stuck with seeking help abroad if I want surgery and there is of course no doubt that I'll find a surgeon who wants my money, but it's very scary for me if I don't fully understand how everything relates.

[kavan]

JF** Christ. I spent TIME addressing  your post and I'm 'attacking' you??? Welcome to my IGNORE list.

ETA: You posted such a link in your opening thread.

I almost feel like you're attacking me, asking me to defend what I'm asking for. I'm here asking questions, seeking advices and trying to understand how everything relate. I can of course seek physical therapy, chiropractors etc. I've done so in the past, and I can do so again. The reason why I'm asking here is because I've gone through a lot of this, and when orthognatic surgery proposed as an option, it's absolutely important for me that I understand every aspect of it and don't make anything worse.




I don't have such link. Again, I don't have the answers for this. I wanted to ask in this forum, because this might be a well know topic and people could point me in the right direction or educate me. I can only explain how I experience my bite and why I'm terrified of surgery. The only thing that's worse than not fixing a problem, is fixing it in an incorrect way. I don't think forward head posture is an accurate description, more like backward tilted posture.




It seems accurate that I need to seek help from someone who can target the problem. I don't know if you rule out maxilofacial surgeons as well when you talk about orthodontics, or if you still think that's on the table and that they might understand this?

The problem I've experienced with orthodontics and jaw surgery is that there's so much business around this that I'm stuck with trust issues, not knowing who actually want to help me in the best way possible, and who want to sell me treatment plans. My orthodontic is the one proposing surgery to me to get the best result, but after profile x-ray he told me that I didn't meet the qualifications to get it from the hospital, and unfortunately that's the only way here. So I'm stuck with seeking help abroad if I want surgery and there is of course no doubt that I'll find a surgeon who wants my money, but it's very scary for me if I don't fully understand how everything relates.

[Dogmatix]

ETA: You posted such a link in your opening thread.

Ok, if you mean that link. It's like you say, a site designed to sell an e-book, and I'm sure if there's any real science behind it, I would expect to find some support for it in here and from more serious sources. I think it shows an interesting concept, but there is also a lot of jibberish on the net, and thats what I'm trying to sort out and discuss.

[Eilerson]

 Mike Mew talks alot about this sort of stuff on his orthotropic channel. Various opinions about him but even he seems to think Straceta is a bit of a whack job.