The CAUSE of underdeveloped jaws

[ODog]

I'm wondering what some of you believe that CAUSE of underdeveloped jaws to be. I don't believe it's oral posture. Not at all. Facial structure is marked at birth. IMO much depends on the nutritional/ physiological health of your parents' germ cells prior to conception. Or it could be genetics as well... but these problems seem to manifest a lot more in modern societies than in traditional/ primitive societies.

Therefore, I think much of what we call 'genetics' is multi-generational decline in nutritional status, i.e. compromised nutrition in one generation after another after another... and that's what you call "genetics" or "we don't know what causes it so we say genetics." For example, the health status of your great grandparents when they conceived your grandparents has a great deal with how healthy/ developed you will be; it doesn't necessarily mean if YOU had great nutrition growing up or had excellent oral posture that you'd develop normally... it's a trans-generational phenomenon. (unless someone can really convince me of the mouth-breathing hypothesis, but I'm doubtful). Moreover, just because a defect takes time to manifest itself doesn't mean it's due to something that YOU personally did wrong, e.g. nutritionally or physically, etc. Your craniofacial developmental plan is laid out at conception, and it just so happens that it takes time for defects to unravel and manifest themselves.

More specifically, does anyone think one of these physiological effects of degenerated nutrition (or physiological effects by some other cause) seems to be growth hormone deficiency ? I was just reading this article http://www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.2319/011905-17 and it turns out GH has a big impact on ramus and mandible length and some impact on maxilla projection as well.


Thoughts?

[ODog]

Another specific culprit could be animal protein deficiency. We know bones are mostly made up of protein. Calcium has more to do with bone density and not the BUILDING of bone, which is proteins job. And btw, humamn growth hormone happens to be a PROTEIN.

Unfortunately, we tend to live in a society that still believes "saturated fat is bad for you" or that "eating animals is evil" etc. and so these developmental problems are becoming more common, whereas they were practically non-existent in primitive societies.

Weston Price in the early 20th century very persuasively showed through observational research of a dozen primitive societies around the world that what these cultures - which were full of people with perfect cranio-facial development - had in common was a diet based heavily around animal and organ meats. Dental and jaw problems only started to manifest when modern foods like sugar were introduced into the societies via trade.

[PloskoPlus]

Infanticide was rife even in the West right up until modern times. With everyone living on the edge of starvation deformed babies were the first to go.

[ODog]

Just because these problems have been around doesn’t prove that deficient nutrition isn’t a causal factor.

[ODog]

Also it’s not just about nutrition it’s about health status in general. I guess what I’m looking for are people who believe different theories, I.e that the problem is developmental rather than genetic/ prenatal nutrition. What do you believe Plosko ?

[PloskoPlus]

Also it’s not just about nutrition it’s about health status in general. I guess what I’m looking for are people who believe different theories, I.e that the problem is developmental rather than genetic/ prenatal nutrition. What do you believe Plosko ?

It's a genetic lottery. If you don't believe me, look up the typical "poor starving ghetto kid grows up to be a 190 cm tall NFL star with massive jaws ("we never had enough food at home when I was growing up")."

[earl25]

It's a genetic lottery. If you don't believe me, look up the typical "poor starving ghetto kid grows up to be a 190 cm tall NFL star with massive jaws ("we never had enough food at home when I was growing up")."

I agree. Ebery one forgets models around my age grew up eating the garbage everyone else ate.

[ODog]

But what did their parents eat? And their grandparents? It doesn’t matter what Tom Brady ate growing up, vegan or whatever, it matters what his parents ate, and his grandparents’ etc. Cait Shanahan talks about this in her book deep nutrition. She calls it genetic momentum when the nutrition is right across generations. She also describes a phenomenon where first born child is usually the tallest, most robust and subsequent born children are less healthy. This often shows in the facial development, and the jaws specifically where the jaws become narrow and teeth crowded. I’ve personally seen this pattern countless times, including in my own family. The reason she says is because it takes 4 years for a mother’s nutritional stores to replenish. People often don’t wait 4 years between kids. Genetic lottery is a lazy answer in my opinion. How does genetic lottery account for that ? We actually have always intuited a connection between the personalities of first born and latter born children (first born being the hero’s/ leaders; latter-born being more dependent)... but maybe after all it has less to do with birth order and more to do with the child’s health.

[earl25]

But what did their parents eat? And their grandparents? It doesn’t matter what Tom Brady ate growing up, vegan or whatever, it matters what his parents ate, and his grandparents’ etc. Cait Shanahan talks about this in her book deep nutrition. She calls it genetic momentum when the nutrition is right across generations. She also describes a phenomenon where first born child is usually the tallest, most robust and subsequent born children are less healthy. This often shows in the facial development, and the jaws specifically where the jaws become narrow and teeth crowded. I’ve personally seen this pattern countless times, including in my own family. The reason she says is because it takes 4 years for a mother’s nutritional stores to replenish. People often don’t wait 4 years between kids. Genetic lottery is a lazy answer in my opinion. How does genetic lottery account for that ? We actually have always intuited a connection between the personalities of first born and latter born children (first born being the hero’s/ leaders; latter-born being more dependent)... but maybe after all it has less to do with birth order and more to do with the child’s health.

Their parents ate the same-stuff everyone else parents ate for the most part. I use me as an example i look like a relative who was born in 1900 on a small farm in rural germany. He had same issue i had. Assymetrical face,recesed everything, small skull. He grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I didnt know him well but i doubt they even had processed foods in his small rural town. His parents lived on that farm same part of town all there lives. I wish the answer was as-simple as nutritiom it isnt.

[GJ]

It's genetics.

There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.   

[Dogmatix]

It's genetics.

There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.

No hope for males with recessed jaws?

[babyjaw206]

It's genetics.

There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.

My father and grandfather both share my recessed jaw (I haven’t seen pictures of relatives beyond my grandparents generation), but I ended up with it worse than either of them. I think it’s your classic genetic predisposition combined with environmental factors scenario in my case. But clearly women are willing to reproduce with men with recessed jaws so it can’t solely be explained by that trait being considered attractive in women.

[PloskoPlus]

It's genetics.

There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.

I remember reading that people's jaws are getting smaller ever since the paleolithic. The average mandible was bigger 1000 years ago and even bigger 1000 years before that and so on.  Something to the effect of jaws being 50% smaller than 10,000 years ago.

Also apparently the general trend is for women to choose husbands with softer faces than 100 years ago.

[earl25]

No hope for males with recessed jaws?

A person can still be good looking with a recessed jaw.

[Dogmatix]

A person can still be good looking with a recessed jaw.

Hmm, interesting thought.