Only Kavan is smart enough to answer this

[Lazlo]

So I know I've brought this up before, but are they actually claiming that once implanted this will be colonized by REAL BONE and then they say something about it following the osteoblast cycle or something. Does that mean it will regenerate etc. like normal bone? In essence it becomes your own bone. So, for example, if there was a small hairline fracture in that new implant/bone area, it would simply heal like real bone. Or is there still an implant there, just like medpor and others that might have bony ingrowth, but remains a forever foreign object and is prey to many of the same problems?

https://www.xilloc.com/ct-bone/

Also, Kavan, just given your knowledge of science etc., do you think we can see real bone 3-D printing or regenerative technologies that could produce bone for facial implants in the near future? What are your predictions as someone who is more informed than most? Thanks.

[kavan]

Not sure I like the TITLE heading of the post as I would not extrapolate what ever 'smarts' I might have to this particular field which you are more interested in than I am. I'm not really a 'bone only or bust type' as to patently reject the concept of implants made from bio-compatible materials just because they are 'not your own bone'. Besides, I don't want to preclude others from answering your question too.

Maybe there is someone on here who's direct field of study is/was biology. Although I had some pre-med courses at MIT, I got alienated by the 'Be a doctor, be a doctor and make lots of money' types and subsequently gravitated to 'Materials', things like making Samurai swords, Crystallography, laser labs, labs having to do with bio-compatible materials, hanging out with walter Lewin and cross registering at Harvard in Fine Arts with stint at the Fogg in curation.

That said, my 'take' on this:

There are materials that become infiltrated or surrounded by 'your own bone' but they REMAIN there. For example a porous hydroxyappetite block of what ever shape needed whether it be a buttress between separated bones or an 'onlay' as in implant to shape face will always remain there AS HA material even though your own bone (or other tissue) grows into it or surrounds it. So, what ever SHAPE it makes will always be there even when you get old and are making more osteoCLASTS than osteoBLASTS.

Biological materials (as opposed to bio-compatible ones that remain permanent) such as bone taken from a living being (or once alive) high up on the food chain (mammal to man) can be used as a bone BUTTRESS in direct contact with the cut surfaces of your bone (sandwiched between) can eventually be replaced by your own bone providing the osteoCLASTS direct themselves to degrading the material and the osteoBLASTS infiltrate it fast enough to keep it's SHAPE.

They are using Calcium phosphate and depending on re-mineralization of it with your own bone to maintain the shape and form of the implant generated with it. But I can't tell you if their claim that your osteoBLASTS will take over in time to maintain the SHAPE of the implant before your osteoCLASTS dissolve the thing.

Also, it looks like they're not getting very far with it. Implants made from THAT particular material (Calcium phosphate)  happen to be THE ones that are NOT available despite being listed as 'available soon' for, (I think a few years) and despite their saying they get a lot of INTEREST in those, I didn't see their even including questions about it in their FAQ section.

[Lazlo]

Thanks man, that was very helpful.

[kavan]

Thanks man, that was very helpful.

A Japanese company, sometimes listed as 'Bone Factory' has a patent (or filed for one) as to the 3-D process. But it looks to be in the developing stages. That's the company the webite you linked to, I guess is waiting for. It says the company is promoting DEVELOPMENT of this.

They can also do your implants in Gypsum and with coral



ref= Custom made ARTIFICIAL bone.
http://www.next21.info/lab/ctbone/index01.html

Bone Factory

http://www.bonefactory.jp/

contact: Contact
bonefactory@next21.info

---
Each person's osteoBLAST vs. osteoCLAST activity is going to DIFFER and then the size, shape, volume which would differ for each person's implant will differ and all those things would have to be factored into into some 'hairy' (complex) statistical equation to predict--or otherwise take a GUESS at--some kind of EQUILIBRIUM so the osteoBLASTS take over the shape BEFORE the substrate the shape is made from 'DISSOLVES'. They don't say that but IMO that's what they would have to deal with to market/advertise WITH the CLAIM the thing will 'turn into your own bone' in SAME shape as implant relative to a claimed period of TIME.

[Lazlo]

Wow that's interesting Kavan, thanks I didn't know about that company.

Their website looks a bit iffy and the guy says he's in "clinical trials". Somehow, though, I don't think the answer will be building custom implants with gypsum, sounds like it has the same problems as xilloc custom bone CT.

Now if anything happens with THIS company, that'll make things really exciting. Apparently they're beginning human trials and the CEO, Nina Tandon has given talks at conferences and MIT emphasizing that this will happen.

I have a feeling this will be availble in the 2020s at some point.

For all you young'ins this will be a very positive development and will certainly change how we think about implants and cosmetic surgery.

http://www.epibone.com/#

If anyone can find any news about epibone or similar efforts I'd be very interested.

[kavan]

Wow that's interesting Kavan, thanks I didn't know about that company.

Their website looks a bit iffy and the guy says he's in "clinical trials". Somehow, though, I don't think the answer will be building custom implants with gypsum, sounds like it has the same problems as xilloc custom bone CT.

Now if anything happens with THIS company, that'll make things really exciting. Apparently they're beginning human trials and the CEO, Nina Tandon has given talks at conferences and MIT emphasizing that this will happen.

I have a feeling this will be availble in the 2020s at some point.

For all you young'ins this will be a very positive development and will certainly change how we think about implants and cosmetic surgery.

http://www.epibone.com/#

If anyone can find any news about epibone or similar efforts I'd be very interested.

MIT (course "3") has good CERAMICS department.  All these bone substrates, substitutes, scaffold materials for bone replacement, bio-materials, bio-medical is within field of 'ceramics'. Mostly the technology is used in orthopedic applications.

[Lazlo]

MIT (course "3") has good CERAMICS department.  All these bone substrates, substitutes, scaffold materials for bone replacement, bio-materials, bio-medical is within field of 'ceramics'. Mostly the technology is used in orthopedic applications.

a lot of times in this type of literature I've heard talk of what "hydrogels" that hydrogels are what they will build scaffolds out of and that those hydrogels will then dissolve after tissue ingrowth.

Are hydrogels ceramics too? Man MIT sounds like it must have been an awesome place and experience.

[kavan]

a lot of times in this type of literature I've heard talk of what "hydrogels" that hydrogels are what they will build scaffolds out of and that those hydrogels will then dissolve after tissue ingrowth.

Are hydrogels ceramics too? Man MIT sounds like it must have been an awesome place and experience.

'Ceramics' refers to study of materials that are inorganic and non-metallic and can be used in wide variety of applications. For example, stuff like hydroxyapatite and calcium phosphate (not an exhaustive list though) are inorganic materials similar to what bone is made from.

Most common early tech example of ceramics is making BONE china from animal bones where the bone ash is used in process. Burning the bones gets rid of all the organic materials in them and allows for extracting the inorganic calcium and phosphorous containing compounds within the bones. Bone ash has a lot of properties that are useful in different applications.

Minerals found in bones can also be extracted from rocks, eg. hydroxyapatite and calcium phosphates. So, some of these materials used in 'ceramics' to make ceramics like bone china when it's made FROM bones can also be extracted from non living things (like rocks) and can be used in applications having to do with bone substitutes or bone growth/repair in bio-medical applications.

I don't know if I'd call a hydrogel 'a ceramic'. What ever the GEL is made from is it's own thing. But materials used in ceramics when mixed with it can give the gel mechanical properties and some 'structure' that it would not otherwise have if it were just left there to jiggle around on it's own. So, the gel is NOT the ceramic. But a material similar to bone USED IN ceramics can be 'complexed' (complexation) with the gel to turn it into a scaffold to be used in bone repair. So, say the gel is collagen and the material used in ceramics is hydroxyapatite  or calcium phosphate. The 2 are 'mixed' together (complexed, process of complexation) to form a hydrogel with mechanical and bioactive properties conducive to use in bone repair.

[Lazlo]

'Ceramics' refers to study of materials that are inorganic and non-metallic and can be used in wide variety of applications. For example, stuff like hydroxyapatite and calcium phosphate (not an exhaustive list though) are inorganic materials similar to what bone is made from.

Most common early tech example of ceramics is making BONE china from animal bones where the bone ash is used in process. Burning the bones gets rid of all the organic materials in them and allows for extracting the inorganic calcium and phosphorous containing compounds within the bones. Bone ash has a lot of properties that are useful in different applications.

Minerals found in bones can also be extracted from rocks, eg. hydroxyapatite and calcium phosphates. So, some of these materials used in 'ceramics' to make ceramics like bone china when it's made FROM bones can also be extracted from non living things (like rocks) and can be used in applications having to do with bone substitutes or bone growth/repair in bio-medical applications.

I don't know if I'd call a hydrogel 'a ceramic'. What ever the GEL is made from is it's own thing. But materials used in ceramics when mixed with it can give the gel mechanical properties and some 'structure' that it would not otherwise have if it were just left there to jiggle around on it's own. So, the gel is NOT the ceramic. But a material similar to bone USED IN ceramics can be 'complexed' (complexation) with the gel to turn it into a scaffold to be used in bone repair. So, say the gel is collagen and the material used in ceramics is hydroxyapatite  or calcium phosphate. The 2 are 'mixed' together (complexed, process of complexation) to form a hydrogel
with mechanical and bioactive properties conducive to use in bone repair.

Cool! Thanks for the interesting explanation. You're a very clear teacher and explicator of ideas Kavan, so thank you!

[kavan]

Cool! Thanks for the interesting explanation. You're a very clear teacher and explicator of ideas Kavan, so thank you!

TBH, I liked Harvard (Fine Arts courses) better than MIT stuff. Ironically, I financed some of the MIT tuition by writing Fine Arts papers for PRE-MEDS who 'had to' take some 'Humanities' courses as opposed to wanted to. A good number of them had no interest in art or aesthetic evaluations (art 'analysis'/critique), needed A's but didn't want to do the work because they had to devote 'tooling time' for the hard core sciences to get the A's in those.

[Lazlo]

Well Kavan, you have an aesthetic sensibility which is always appreciated.

For those of you dreamers the future may be fast approaching. Not directly related to jaw augmentation, this could be a MAJOR development along the way. Esp. if you need a rhinoplasty as several of us do.

This could make the whole procedure f**king magic. I want push-back from you Kavan or anyone else who think these results are bogus. They sound pretty legit to me. But it proves that they can actually synthesize human tissue like cartilage in a lab. And bone would be something that is next.

Maybe Kurzweil is right and these things are going to ahieve exponential growth in the near future.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-medical-team-cartilage-nose-reconstructions.html

[Lazlo]

f**k this type of thing makes me skeptical and despondent

Like apparently some Swiss people actually did this way back in 2014 and they even implanted it in people noses.

But why hasn't it become mainstream? Why has Dean Toriumi who regularly does advanced nasal reconstruction with coastal cartilage not started using this. Makes me think something was wrong or its not working according to plan. Or maybe the technology is just too expensive to scale up. I don't know.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/need-new-nose-scientists-can-grow-one-your-cartilage-180950502/

[kavan]

Some years back--and it could have been around year 2000!-- I used to get the invites from MGH to attend Dr. Vacanti's talks on tissue engineering. He had grown a LIVER via the scaffold for it and then seeded it with liver cells. Unfortunately, I live too far away now to keep up with a lot of the academic talks as to how much more they advanced things.

I think I mentioned Vacanti to you  as an innovator in field of tissue engineering (on some other post about this).

Vacanti is the lab director at MGH Tissue Engineering group and Professor Langer from MIT, also part of team.


Vacanti also grew an EAR on a mouse's back via the cartilage cells. So, YES, cartilage can be grown in the lab.


Not up to opining/ruminating on why it's not mainstream or on Torimumi, Kurzweil etc. INSTEAD, here's a few links to Vacanti, Langer, and MGH Tissue Engineering Lab. Those are ones I know of  who are advancing the field.


Ear on Mouse article

https://www.newsweek.com/tissue-surgeon-ear-mouse-human-organs-transplant-cell-phones-666082



Langer Lab at MIT 

http://langerlab.mit.edu/

MGH Tissue engineering Lab

https://www.massgeneral.org/regenmed/research/researchlab.aspx?id=1129&display=overview

[Lazlo]

Thanks Kavan!

OMG that poor mouse. Hi! My ear lived in a mouse for several weeks. That's gotta be a weird feeling.

[dardok]

Kavan is a genius, all hail him.