Chin Wing after Bi-Max ??

[ODog]

Hi guys,

I emailed Dr. Z about doing a chin wing after my bi-max surgery to lower my jaw angles but he replied saying “BSSO typically destroys the lower mandible border making CW very difficult or impossible.” I actually don’t even want a CW but a side wing. He also said the same thing for the zygoma osteotmy after a “high lefort 1 advancement of maxilla,” (it makes it difficult/ impossible), although I’m not sure what he meant by “high” as I’m just getting the traditional lefort cut.

I was positive I’ve read of accounts of people getting bi-max first and then CW. Wasn’t there a poster SJ who did just that? Would another osteotomy surgeon in Europe be willing to do this ?

 I’m disapointed.

[kavan]

Hi guys,

I emailed Dr. Z about doing a chin wing after my bi-max surgery to lower my jaw angles but he replied saying “BSSO typically destroys the lower mandible border making CW very difficult or impossible.” I actually don’t even want a CW but a side wing. He also said the same thing for the zygoma osteotmy after a “high lefort 1 advancement of maxilla,” (it makes it difficult/ impossible), although I’m not sure what he meant by “high” as I’m just getting the traditional lefort cut.

I was positive I’ve read of accounts of people getting bi-max first and then CW. Wasn’t there a poster SJ who did just that? Would another osteotomy surgeon in Europe be willing to do this ?

 I’m disapointed.

SJ engaged in a lot of DECEPTION on this board. If his accounts of having a chin wing/side wing post BSSO influenced you to seek out dr. Z, then the ball was in your court to have asked Z about accounts you read on here that said he did chin/side wings after a BSSO.

Even if you ask the OTHER CW doctors; Brusco and Triaca in Switzerland, consider you are asking them if they can give you a chin wing after a surgery you haven't even had yet. All 3 of them can't tell you for sure, not knowing what they will be dealing with. I mean, you DON'T have X rays to show regarding a surgery TO BE done later down the line. (No one would.)

They might want to do ALL the surgery in order to do the chin wing with it or later down the line because it's probably easier for them to do the CWs where they alter the cuts or rotations with the Lefort and/or the BSSO in order to do the chin wing.

Other than that, if you really want a chin wing, either wait until your surgery is done so you have X rays of the cuts that they can see and then tell you if possible OR consult directly with them regarding either 1 of those 3 doing ALL your surgery.

[ODog]

Thanks Kavan. The latter isn’t an option because bi-max + side Wing is out of my budget range at the moment. That would be around $35,000. I’ll have to consult them afterward I guess. Visually speaking I’m not sure why a BSSO would make a side wing harder, chin wing yeah I can understand because  you’re cutting further down where the BSSO cut was made, which is probably what he means by “the border is destroyed with BSSO,” but with SW the cut is at the back only, I.e there’s no sliding forward movement or anterior mandible dropdown needed in my case as that will be accomplished with my genio and BSSO. I just want a wider, squarer jaw at the back

[PloskoPlus]

Thanks Kavan. The latter isn’t an option because bi-max + side Wing is out of my budget range at the moment. That would be around $35,000. I’ll have to consult them afterward I guess. Visually speaking I’m not sure why a BSSO would make a side wing harder, chin wing yeah I can understand because  you’re cutting further down where the BSSO cut was made, which is probably what he means by “the border is destroyed with BSSO,” but with SW the cut is at the back only, I.e there’s no sliding forward movement or anterior mandible dropdown needed in my case as that will be accomplished with my genio and BSSO. I just want a wider, squarer jaw at the back

Then you're better off with implants some time after your bi-max.

[ODog]

Yeah at least I’ll have that option but I wanted to a more natural result. Oh well.

Polsko I’ve read some of your past posts about your surgery. Did everything work out? Did you end up getting a revision. How are your nerves ?

[kavan]

Thanks Kavan. The latter isn’t an option because bi-max + side Wing is out of my budget range at the moment. That would be around $35,000. I’ll have to consult them afterward I guess. Visually speaking I’m not sure why a BSSO would make a side wing harder, chin wing yeah I can understand because  you’re cutting further down where the BSSO cut was made, which is probably what he means by “the border is destroyed with BSSO,” but with SW the cut is at the back only, I.e there’s no sliding forward movement or anterior mandible dropdown needed in my case as that will be accomplished with my genio and BSSO. I just want a wider, squarer jaw at the back

IDK. Maybe still too close for comfort. He probably wants to make his own cuts with bi-max to give him leeway for any cuts he does to the mandible or now prefers people with 'virgin' jaws.

[GJ]

'virgin' jaws.

 

[ODog]

Hahahaha LoL

[Lazlo]

Uhm as far as I know Dr. Z has done ching wing and/or side wing on a number of bi-max patients.

I personally don't think SJ was lying about having had two chin-wings (or side wings I don't know which) after having had bi-max with another Italian surgeon.

This is very concerning/strange news. Also not doing the ZSO after bi-max sounds counter to what I've heard as well. So confused.

[ODog]

Uhm as far as I know Dr. Z has done ching wing and/or side wing on a number of bi-max patients.

I personally don't think SJ was lying about having had two chin-wings (or side wings I don't know which) after having had bi-max with another Italian surgeon.

This is very concerning/strange news. Also not doing the ZSO after bi-max sounds counter to what I've heard as well. So confused.

I think something has changed because I emailed Z last year indicating I was getting upper jaw surgery and asked about the zygoma procedure and he didn’t say I would be disqualified. This could be something new and I asked him if that’s the case but he didn’t respond. This was his response to me..

“if you will have conventional BSSO and not a higher one,
they very often destroy the lower border of the mandible, because of bone resorption at the end of the osteotomy line, therefore it can be that side wing or chin wing osteotomy is very difficult or impossible afterwards, in the maxilla it is the other way round, when higher Le Fort I is used,
zygoma osteotomy is more difficult and not so effective afterwards.”

[kavan]

Uhm as far as I know Dr. Z has done ching wing and/or side wing on a number of bi-max patients.

I personally don't think SJ was lying about having had two chin-wings (or side wings I don't know which) after having had bi-max with another Italian surgeon.

This is very concerning/strange news. Also not doing the ZSO after bi-max sounds counter to what I've heard as well. So confused.

Well time for you too  to know that SJ engaged in DECEPTION as far as this board goes. Con games are all about being truthful in some things TO BE deceptive about other things. So go figure.

[ODog]

Well time for you too  to know that SJ engaged in DECEPTION as far as this board goes. Con games are all about being truthful in some things TO BE deceptive about other things. So go figure.

I also do not think he was deceptive in the procedures he had done. I’m pretty sure he was class II before and had that fixed. Wouldn’t make sense for him to lie about getting jaw surgery because if his goal was to solely get referral kickbacks for CW, then it would’ve been in his best interest to pawn his results off as being the result of CW only.

It also doesn’t make sense why he would lie about getting “two” CWs as, again, if his goal was to attract interest in the CW this would detract from that as it would make it seem like an ineffective procedure if it needed to be repeated. If the whole thing was a lie, he would’ve just said “Hey look I got this one cheap procedure and it changed everything for me.” And didn’t he admit he STILL needed fillers afterward? I mean if he made all of that up then he’s a horrendous salesman because it makes CW sound sketchy like a crap shoot .

Obviously it’s possible he lied, but I think it’s  more likely Dr. Z may have recently experienced complications in post Bi-max patients and this has changed his mind on who he accepts.

[kavan]

I think something has changed because I emailed Z last year indicating I was getting upper jaw surgery and asked about the zygoma procedure and he didn’t say I would be disqualified. This could be something new and I asked him if that’s the case but he didn’t respond. This was his response to me..

“if you will have conventional BSSO and not a higher one,
they very often destroy the lower border of the mandible, because of bone resorption at the end of the osteotomy line, therefore it can be that side wing or chin wing osteotomy is very difficult or impossible afterwards, in the maxilla it is the other way round, when higher Le Fort I is used,
zygoma osteotomy is more difficult and not so effective afterwards.”

This is what I told you in other posts in this string which resolves to IF you don't get the type of BSSO that HE does SO he CAN do the the chin wing, he's not going to promise or imply to promise he will do your chin wing.

Who the f**k knows. Maybe he 's trying to distance himself from SJ promoting him and people coming in THAT way.

[kavan]

I also do not think he was deceptive in the procedures he had done. I’m pretty sure he was class II before and had that fixed. Wouldn’t make sense for him to lie about getting jaw surgery because if his goal was to solely get referral kickbacks for CW, then it would’ve been in his best interest to pawn his results off as being the result of CW only.

It also doesn’t make sense why he would lie about getting “two” CWs as, again, if his goal was to attract interest in the CW this would detract from that as it would make it seem like an ineffective procedure if it needed to be repeated. If the whole thing was a lie, he would’ve just said “Hey look I got this one cheap procedure and it changed everything for me.” And didn’t he admit he STILL needed fillers afterward? I mean if he made all of that up then he’s a horrendous salesman because it makes CW sound sketchy like a crap shoot .

Obviously it’s possible he lied, but I think it’s  more likely Dr. Z may have recently experienced complications in post Bi-max patients and this has changed his mind on who he accepts.

What the f**ck don't you understand about CON games? They are all about being truthful in ONE thing to gain confidence so they can be deceptive about OTHER things. Maybe Z doesn't want people coming in THROUGH SJ.  Good for Z if that is the case. Go ahead. Be an apologist for  SJ and I shall  consider you BEYOND help.

[ODog]

What the f**ck don't you understand about CON games? They are all about being truthful in ONE thing to gain confidence so they can be deceptive about OTHER things. Maybe Z doesn't want people coming in THROUGH SJ.  Good for Z if that is the case. Go ahead. Be an apologist for  SJ and I shall  consider you BEYOND help.

I’m not coming in through SJ in the slightest. In fact his isolated experience turns me off from it. I am interested in CW because of what it can theoretically do. I only commented on SJ because it’s relevant that he had prior jaw surgery. His relevance to this thread stops there.