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[Post bimax]

Obviously it's a complex issue, but the strange thing is, all the women that don't get what they want - Prince Charming, or whatever - don't start creating an ideology around it and start websites telling everyone they will 'take the neon green coloured pill' because now they are really, really so angry because they didn't get what they wanted... Sorry but the whole incel stuff is just so childish, like a toddler throwing a tantrum.

I don't think it's a technology related thing either; throughout history, a small percentage of men had the option to have as many women as they wanted, it's always been like this. Before, maybe it wasn't as based on looks and more on money and power, social position, but it was still the same thing. Before tinder, and even now, people hook up in clubs and other 'real life' situations, and it's the same story, a small percentage of guys get most of the girls.

I can understand that men are disappointed about this but women go through the same thing when they grow up and realise the perfect relationship / wedding / family / house or whatever they dreamt about only happens to a very few lucky people. Everyone else has to make compromises and so on, that's just life.

Well I think there's a real difference between not getting 'Prince Charming' and getting next to zero sexual attention from the opposite gender.  I'd say the latter is far more debilitating. That's like telling a homeless guy "well I didn't get my million dollar mansion, I guess we all have struggles".  The comparison is a bit silly.

Yes, it has always been this way to some degree.  My point is though that technology is responsible for deepening the crisis for young men which has lead to the generation of these communities.  This is borne out in the data over the last decade on involuntarily celibate men.  It's not clear whether technology is entirely responsible.  That's just my theory based on observation and experience, and the experiences of other guys I've talked to.

[InvisalignOnly]

On both sides people are using one another and using mind games/tricks to get in the pants.

I understand incels desires. Those are normal. Everyone wants to walk into a room and have their pick of the litter. Totally normal. Probably the most human and normal emotion incels experience, actually. The abnormality is in how they cope with not getting that. Moping is about the worst, most unattractive response. Good women are repulsed by mopers and guys who are under their thumb.

I totally agree with what you wrote here re: moping etc. Re: people using tricks etc. to get casual sex, it does not have to be like that. It's possible to do it in a very open and honest way if you find the right group of people. It sounds like you had bad luck / bad experiences in this respect.

[GJ]

This is borne out in the data over the last decade on involuntarily celibate men. 

Or is someone just finally keeping data on these things?
I'm sure in ancient Greece there were involuntary celibate men.

[Post bimax]

Is it great? So many disgusting things hidden by clothing, and so many unfortunate outcomes (STDs, pregnancies, etc).
It's fine it things go smoothly, but that rarely happens.

Personally I've never been disgusted by casual sex.  It's something I genuinely enjoy and seek out when I'm not dating someone.  In my experience, women enjoy it just as much.  It's all about being the right guy.

[InvisalignOnly]

Well I think there's a real difference between not getting 'Prince Charming' and getting next to zero sexual attention from the opposite gender.  I'd say the latter is far more debilitating. That's like telling a homeless guy "well I didn't get my million dollar mansion, I guess we all have struggles".  The comparison is a bit silly.

Guess what, having a loving life partner is more important and more fulfilling than casual sex (I say this as someone who has more positive views on casual sex than the overwhelming majority of women). I guess it's easy to dismiss the Prince Charming stuff because that's just a silly thing that women typically want, while obviously what men want cannot be dismissed quite so easily since that's the important stuff, right?

[Post bimax]

Or is someone just finally keeping data on these things?
I'm sure in ancient Greece there were involuntary celibate men.

Here's a wiki with some sources on the data.  The spike since about 08 is what I'm referring to.

https://incels.wiki/w/Demographics_of_inceldom

[GJ]

Personally I've never been disgusted by casual sex.  It's something I genuinely enjoy and seek out when I'm not dating someone.  In my experience, women enjoy it just as much.  It's all about being the right guy.

I'm disgusted by STDs, pregnancy, and bad smells. Not casual sex. In theory casual sex is ideal. In reality, people are flawed and have issues and/or things happen, and those things repulse me.

I also always hated the feeling of leaving someone's house after that. It felt like fleeing a crime scene where I just wanted to get the hell out of there as fast as possible and shower off the DNA evidence.

These could all be problems with me. If that's the case this is some mini therapy.

[InvisalignOnly]

I'm sure in ancient Greece there were involuntary celibate men.

Exactly! And probably involuntarily celibate and / or emotionally and sexually unfulfilled women too, seeing how it was quite common in ancient Greece for men to spend almost all their time outside the house, in the company of other men and handsome young boys, and women were kept pretty much as slaves for cooking and child bearing. Also in a lot of ancient societies - and even in some contemporary ones - higher status men have had several wives, so quite a few men of lower status would have ended up without even one.

[Post bimax]

Guess what, having a loving life partner is more important and more fulfilling than casual sex (I say this as someone who has more positive views on casual sex than the overwhelming majority of women). I guess it's easy to dismiss the Prince Charming stuff because that's just a silly thing that women typically want, while obviously what men want cannot be dismissed quite so easily since that's the important stuff, right?

No, you are misunderstanding. Maybe a better way would be to imagine a pyramid like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  At the very top, we can put 'true love', Prince Charming, and all that.  Down at the base we have things like basic attention and recognition.  My point is that while women don't always get Prince Charming, they at least get the base.  An increasing number of men go with all of these needs (or wants) unmet.

[GJ]

Here's a wiki with some sources on the data.  The spike since about 08 is what I'm referring to.

https://incels.wiki/w/Demographics_of_inceldom

What's interesting about that graph is there's only a 10% difference between women and men who are incels.
The graph only goes back to the 80s. And what was the methodology back then vs now? Is it all self-reporting?

It is interesting there's a spike. That coincides with the economic collapse...you could argue the guys who came out of that with jobs got women. Tinder wasn't founded until 2012, so how does it explain '08 through '12? Might be more going on.

I think women should be the selectors. I'm all for men's rights and think feminism has many flaws. But biologically speaking, they have a limited number of eggs. We pretty much have unlimited sperm. They should be more in demand, and they should be selecting. Our jizz is a dime a dozen. Have you seen the cost of eggs??

[InvisalignOnly]

For one, every time I hear that I can't believe adult women believe in fairytale romance, and secondly how bad does your judgment have to be to think you're in a fairytale and wind up dead?

Good points. My personal experience has been that if the guy is super nice and 'charming' in the very beginning, brings flowers, seems very romantic, spends loads of money, makes lots of compliments etc., it's the biggest red flag there is and one should run a mile from them. It's invariably these types of guys that turn out to be possessive, controlling stalkers sooner rather than later. Normal guys just behave normal, they don't put on an act in the beginning and spend time trying to get to know the other person before investing in them.

[GJ]

Good points. My personal experience has been that if the guy is super nice and 'charming' in the very beginning, brings flowers, seems very romantic, spends loads of money, makes lots of compliments etc., it's the biggest red flag there is and one should run a mile from them. It's invariably these types of guys that turn out to be possessive, controlling stalkers sooner rather than later. Normal guys just behave normal, they don't put on an act in the beginning and spend time trying to get to know the other person before investing in them.

Oh yeah, huge red flag. And for guys anything related to daddy issues is the equivalent red flag.

[Post bimax]

What's interesting about that graph is there's only a 10% difference between women and men who are incels.
The graph only goes back to the 80s. And what was the methodology back then vs now? Is it all self-reporting?

It is interesting there's a spike. That coincides with the economic collapse...you could argue the guys who came out of that with jobs got women. Tinder wasn't founded until 2012, so how does it explain '08 through '12? Might be more going on.

I think women should be the selectors. I'm all for men's rights and think feminism has many flaws. But biologically speaking, they have a limited number of eggs. We pretty much have unlimited sperm. They should be more in demand, and they should be selecting. Our jizz is a dime a dozen. Have you seen the cost of eggs??

I don't know the methodology.  Yes I also noticed that the spike begins around the time of the global financial crisis, but it also does not attenuate in the subsequent years.  I'm sure the crisis had an impact.

Biologically speaking, women are in fact the selectors.  That's why the disparity exists. 

[InvisalignOnly]

No, you are misunderstanding. Maybe a better way would be to imagine a pyramid like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  At the very top, we can put 'true love', Prince Charming, and all that.  Down at the base we have things like basic attention and recognition.  My point is that while women don't always get Prince Charming, they at least get the base.  An increasing number of men go with all of these needs (or wants) unmet.

Oh ok, I understand your point much better now and yes, you're right in that sense. I'd add though that not all women get attention and / or positive attention from men. I have been fortunate in this respect and it has not happened to me (yet), but I hear from others that for example overweight women, or women above a certain age become completely invisible to men or even get ridiculed.

[GJ]

Biologically speaking, women are in fact the selectors.  That's why the disparity exists.

But that's how it should be, no?
They have the rarer gamete.