Author Topic: bimax vs bsso  (Read 9100 times)

lsubuilder

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2020, 01:43:43 PM »
So there is no way to move the maxilla forward without the ans? Thats what i thought but he made it sound like it is what he wanted to do.

Post bimax

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2020, 02:25:17 PM »
One thing to remember is that top maxfac surgeons are also businessmen.  They make a ton of money off of surgical fees and have an interest in getting you to agree to their plan.  So Alfaro may downplay the necessity of a rhinoplasty because his own skillset cannot fully address that issue.

GJ

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2020, 02:54:31 PM »
My guess is he said he'd cut down the ANS. Somewhat common to reduce it, if prominent, during surgery.

Clarify that with him.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

april

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2020, 04:44:54 PM »
Which is when he said he could cut around it. Ill have to get him to clarify.

this is correct. he does a modified le fort where the ANS is not moved nor touched. he cuts around it.

PloskoPlus

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2020, 06:53:40 PM »
On all the x-rays of Alfaro’s patients that I’ve seen he does bugger all fixation. I mean he does huge movements, yet uses few screws and plates. This is probably how he does his surgeries so fast.

lsubuilder

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2020, 07:15:03 AM »
Thought id give an update. Had consults with gunson, relle and alfaro. These are the two plans i got. Alfaro unfortunately wouldnt give me any plan until i go there for scans and molds. His consult was great but that makes me hesitant. All three want to do bixmax with rotation. Gunson seems to rotate more. im not 100% sure im reading these correctly or which one would be better.

Post bimax

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2020, 08:35:46 AM »
Thought id give an update. Had consults with gunson, relle and alfaro. These are the two plans i got. Alfaro unfortunately wouldnt give me any plan until i go there for scans and molds. His consult was great but that makes me hesitant. All three want to do bixmax with rotation. Gunson seems to rotate more. im not 100% sure im reading these correctly or which one would be better.

Hell of a downgraft from Gunson. My god. Yes he is rotating you quite a bit more whereas Relle is opting for more linear advancement.  Your ANS is coming forward by twice as much under Relle's plan.

Gunson's plan is the 'high risk, high reward' option here.  Relle's more conservative approach comes at the cost of more ANS advancement.  Personally under both plans I would like to see a stronger genioplasty, which you could probably request.  That's a personal preference though.

One option is to get the rhino with ANS adjustment and then come back to Relle for a more conservative rotation but add a genioplasty if you want a stronger chin.  I'm guessing the price of rhino + genio + bimax with Relle might be equal to the price of Gunson bimax alone; though I could be wrong.  I don't know much about Relle's prices.

There are still some questions in orthognathic literature about the stability of posterior downgrafts.  That risk is correlated with the size of the movement.  The above option may give you a good result that's more stable and for a more reasonable price.  IMO you're going to need the rhino regardless of the surgeon.  You've got quite an ANS.  For reference, here's my tracing from Gunson: https://imgur.com/xmsbhf1

lsubuilder

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2020, 08:53:37 AM »
I havent gotten a price from Relle yet but Gunsons quote was pretty heafty. Almost 20k more than alfaro(although he did not give me any measurements) for his fee alone. Gunson also threw in cheek augmentation.

Post bimax

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2020, 09:17:14 AM »
I havent gotten a price from Relle yet but Gunsons quote was pretty heafty. Almost 20k more than alfaro(although he did not give me any measurements) for his fee alone. Gunson also threw in cheek augmentation.


If Relle's prices are similar to Gunson's then my above statement regarding prices is true. 

Alfaro is likely to give a plan more similar to Gunson.  I think he may be a good option for you since your bite is not a significant issue.  The reason he won't give you a tracing right now is because he typically takes the 'surgery first' approach.  Other surgeons pretty much have to give you a plan because they can't just say "ok spend $7k on braces and i'll tell you my plan in 6 months".  He did give me one, but I think that's because he considered pre-op braces a possibility in my case.

All 3 surgeons are competent.  The way I see it is this:

Gunson: More attention to detail, large rotations.  Probably best for cases with complex bite issues.  Exorbitantly expensive.

Alfaro: Also large rotations.  Tends to propose a slightly better chin for men than Gunson.  More reasonable prices (both surgical fees and hospital).  Best for cases requiring large rotation where the bite is already pretty good.

Relle: More conservative rotations.  Prices are reasonable (I think, need to verify).  Best for people who are risk averse and/or needs less rotation.

My reading of this is that Alfaro could be the best option for you depending on his plan and your risk tolerance.  I think it's hard to justify Gunson's prices in your case since your bite isn't a major problem.  My concern with Relle's plan is how far forward he is bringing your ANS.  That's the opposite of what you need.  However if you got a rhino first, all that is potentially subject to change.

lsubuilder

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2020, 09:31:52 AM »
Awesome thanks for the advice. I am leaning towards Alfaro but getting so much info from these two and little from Alfaro threw me off. Pretty much every detailed question i had he said it will be determined when i get there. Which i understand but still scary.  Both Gunson and Relle want to do a 3 piece lefort to widen my jaw. Apparently thats still doable with surgery first but again Alfaro would only say he will determine if thats needed when i come.  The price differences are pretty crazy.

I was surprised how much Relle advanced my ans as well. In our consult he said 9mm upper advancement and 14mm lower. He seemed confident that my ans would be fine but i dont see how lol.

Post bimax

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2020, 10:58:20 AM »
Awesome thanks for the advice. I am leaning towards Alfaro but getting so much info from these two and little from Alfaro threw me off. Pretty much every detailed question i had he said it will be determined when i get there. Which i understand but still scary.  Both Gunson and Relle want to do a 3 piece lefort to widen my jaw. Apparently thats still doable with surgery first but again Alfaro would only say he will determine if thats needed when i come.  The price differences are pretty crazy.

I was surprised how much Relle advanced my ans as well. In our consult he said 9mm upper advancement and 14mm lower. He seemed confident that my ans would be fine but i dont see how lol.

If Alfaro is making you pay the surgical fees before giving you a preliminary CEPH tracing then that is not acceptable.  I would not go along with that if I were you.  If he's trying to do that then I think you need to push to see what you're getting into before coughing up that kind of cash.

It's difficult to compare CEPHs between surgeons because each surgeon rotates the CEPH to a different degree before performing the analysis.  Changing the orientation of the CEPH can shift the magnitude of the vertical and horizontal vector components for any given 'absolute' diagonal displacement.  For example, if Gunson's and Relle's A-P displacement readouts were the same but Gunson rotated the CEPH more clockwise for planning than Relle, then Gunson's A-P displacements are actually larger than Relle's when normalizing the CEPHs to the same orientation.

The upshot is that CEPH readouts between surgeons are not always apples-to-apples comparisons.  However, the differences here are so large that it gives you enough info to draw meaningful distinctions between surgical approaches.


lsubuilder

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2020, 12:15:32 PM »
They havent given me anything other than the quote. He explained his plan during the consult but no tracings or anything. I will email them again to see what the deal is

ArtVandelay

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2020, 12:35:50 PM »
They havent given me anything other than the quote. He explained his plan during the consult but no tracings or anything. I will email them again to see what the deal is

Did you see them in-person or remotely?

lsubuilder

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2020, 12:39:48 PM »
It was remotely. I sent in xrays and pictures from my orthodontist. All 3 consults were done remotely

GJ

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Re: bimax vs bsso
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2020, 02:53:37 PM »
Relle's plan looks nice. Walline is a great guy. Met him on the elevator while consulting with Relle...super nice, and I think he assists.
G's plan looks aggressive, but you are quite recessed so it makes sense to go that dramatic. You'd have to wonder if that large a rotation would remain stable. That would be my only concern there.
Millimeters are miles on the face.