Author Topic: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles  (Read 4032 times)

mediumdrinkofwater

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2021, 08:50:35 PM »
Correct. The venue is secondary chinwing procedure.


Is this a side wing? I dont understand why dr.Z would not have done this in the initial surgery, to avoid blunting of the angles?

What i might do instead now is undo the chin wing and bsso in one procedure. Meaning putting the mandible back in its place and then doing a bsso in one surgery, to fix the 4mm overbite.

kavan

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2021, 09:04:04 PM »
Is this a side wing? I dont understand why dr.Z would not have done this in the initial surgery, to avoid blunting of the angles?

What i might do instead now is undo the chin wing and bsso in one procedure. Meaning putting the mandible back in its place and then doing a bsso in one surgery, to fix the 4mm overbite.

It's done in a SECONDARY SURGERY. It can be referred to as a side wing. As I said prior, to perform the whole advancement, they cut all the way through the back of the jaw angles and advance the WHOLE segment. Blunted angles addressed in a secondary surgery. End of Story.
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Gadwins

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2021, 02:07:20 AM »
I am sorry to hear, that Z didn't clarified everything to you in your consultation. That is his job to do that. That is a violation against german federal laws, especially if the surgery is an elective one. In the german bimax facebook group you can read more about this and some law cases about that.

Like kavan said before, it is unfourtnately an effect of chin wing and well-known for a surgeon. I would confront him directly with that and ask for a revision. What kind of revision, you would have to decide.

Probably he will do it for a much lower cost or even for free, if you really make your point clear and remind him of his duty.

Tomasjohn

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2021, 05:26:41 AM »
I would not focus to much on terminology like side-wing etc. I don't think there is an official definition of what a side wing is. You can start the cut anywhere at the mandible border and basically move the segment(s) in every direction (forward, back, outwards) - the question is if it makes sense and if its safe enough. So its best do discuss this with the surgeon.


About the initial surgery (my theory could be wrong): If they would not cut all the way through the back of the jaw angles they would most likely be limited with vertical movement of the segment and correction of asymmetry (depending on the case!!). But if you only get forward movement then i guess it is more possible not to cut all the way back through the angles.

But I think even when the cut does not go through the angle but stops a little bit before the angles the face still can get a bit more round. Take a look at dr.bruscos instagram/imgur page. Look at the female patients there and look at the cut and the outcome. I would like to hear what other users think about that. Sometimes the asymmetry is really noticeable in the after photos.


Each procedure has pro's and con's. Sometimes there is a clear path to take and there is the "perfect" surgery for you but most of the times there will be a trade off. A genio can also have a negative impact on the face from the front.

Again: For only 4mm horizontal movement I think movement of the whole mandible border is not a good solution. It would be so interesting to see before/after because you say that you got very blunted angles from just 4mm. But I also understand that you don't want to post them!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 05:56:41 AM by Tomasjohn »

mediumdrinkofwater

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2021, 07:59:09 AM »
Yes, looking back, a chin wing was not the right solution and I should not have aped in the way I did. I am also not ready to do a second chin wing, since I feel it’s just too unpredictable and there are not enough references.

Fortunately it is possible to reverse the surgery and restore the old face. I will go the safer and longer route of pursuing a orthodontic treatment to fix my overbite of 4mm, in order to get the face that was always intended for me.

Does anyone know how the front view of the Face from the chin wing and high bsso differs? How are the gonial angles affected by a bsso in comparison to a cw?

kavan

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2021, 06:51:14 PM »
I would not focus to much on terminology like side-wing etc. I don't think there is an official definition of what a side wing is. You can start the cut anywhere at the mandible border and basically move the segment(s) in every direction (forward, back, outwards) - the question is if it makes sense and if its safe enough. So its best do discuss this with the surgeon.

This is  correct. I would add that the border of the chin is part of the mandibular border. Also, the BASIC segment is one that cuts through the chin all the way back to the gonial angles. I say basic segment because that's the one someone should familiarize themselves with first if they expect any explanation as to cuts through the basic segment as to what can be done with different cuts in secondary surgery.  I've included a simple chinwing diagram that shows the basic segment. As to when it's not safe to cut all the way through from front to back (as illustrated in the diagram), it's when the jaw bone is too steep and or the nerve would be too close to the cut. As to a second procedure, if the first one was safe, the second one would tend to be also because they go through the SAME cut. However, I tend to think that risks could go up if they have to remove prior bone grafts. If no removal of bone grafts,the secondary procedure is one like you mentioned prior. The release the (whole) segment (via the prior cut they made to release the first time). A vertical cut is made to part of the segment which allows them to put the jaw angle back where it was (and also flare it out for more definition prominence). From there, they fill in the vacant space between the moved jaw angle part and the rest of the segment. They fill in with a graft from the hip area. I agree, safety and risks should be discussed with the surgeon. However, safety is different aesthetic effect or aesthetic preference. If a patient was incapable of expressing to the doctor such things as; 'more flare, articulation to the back jaw angles' or making clear what he was aiming for, it wouldn't matter how 'safe' the surgery was.

About the initial surgery (my theory could be wrong): If they would not cut all the way through the back of the jaw angles they would most likely be limited with vertical movement of the segment and correction of asymmetry (depending on the case!!). But if you only get forward movement then i guess it is more possible not to cut all the way back through the angles.
 But I think even when the cut does not go through the angle but stops a little bit before the angles the face still can get a bit more round. Take a look at dr.bruscos instagram/imgur page. Look at the female patients there and look at the cut and the outcome. I would like to hear what other users think about that. Sometimes the asymmetry is really noticeable in the after photos.

Your theory is  CORRECT. If they didn't cut all the way through the back jaw angle and just left it there, they would not be able to do what you are saying. I would add that if they didn't cut all the way back through the jaw angles and just left them there where they were and just moved the rest of the segment forward, the back jaw angles would not look the same RELATIVE to the forward displacement of the rest of the segment. That's because the mandible gets wider and wider the further back you go. So they are moving a WIDER width more forward which will increase the width of the FRONTAL face (usually a desired goal of the CW). However, if the back jaw angle is LEFT BEHIND, a WIDER width to the front of the face would result in the back jaw angle looking more NARROW via RELATIVE COMPARISON. That's why I think a good thing to move the WHOLE basic segment and not leave the jaw angle area behind. Could even explain what you're seeing in Brusco's photos when jaw angle is left behind, a type of roundness to frontal face. (Only when the patient's jaw is too steep and/or the nerve too close to the cut for safety do they have to leave the posterior part of the mandible where it is.


.......
Again: For only 4mm horizontal movement I think movement of the whole mandible border is not a good solution. It would be so interesting to see before/after because you say that you got very blunted angles from just 4mm. ......

Not sure I would agree entirely with that part. For example, the CW is a good solution for someone wanting some additional movements that can be done during the first CW, like 'dropping down' the border for more facial height or wanting more WIDTH to the front of the face which one can get with even a 4mm advance of the basic segment. However, it's not a good solution for someone wanting only an isolated genio or someone just landing in the doctor's office who's done no basic research, not even looking at a basic diagram before hand of the cut made and the segment it creates where to most people it would be OBVIOUS that part of the back jaw angles would be changing their position with the advancement of the segment. As to blunting with a small 4mm movement of the whole segment, the perception of blunting would still be there if they left the jaw angle area behind for reasons I stated above. width is being transferred forward. So, if the back angles are left behind, a wider width than that of prior would also make the jaw angles look blunted by relative comparison.



« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 10:22:16 PM by kavan »
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kavan

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2021, 07:09:58 PM »
I am sorry to hear, that Z didn't clarified everything to you in your consultation. That is his job to do that. That is a violation against german federal laws, especially if the surgery is an elective one. In the german bimax facebook group you can read more about this and some law cases about that.

Like kavan said before, it is unfourtnately an effect of chin wing and well-known for a surgeon. I would confront him directly with that and ask for a revision. What kind of revision, you would have to decide.

Probably he will do it for a much lower cost or even for free, if you really make your point clear and remind him of his duty.

I don't recall calling it an 'unfortunate' effect. It's something that can be expected, well, at least by someone with basic observational skills who at least, included in their research looking at a very basic diagram of the chin wing cut. Only if they were lacking in basic observation capacity or didn't bother to even track down a basic diagram of the chin wing cut would they be unable to figure out before hand that part of the jaw angles would be moving forward. So, personally, I wouldn't hold Z's feet to the fire based on the OP not having the observational skills needed. My 'interlude' (and exit from more dialogue with him) resulted from his not observing what's in my signature and then expecting answers to all the details of SJ's surgery when I said NOTHING about SJ in my post. In this case, I'm not holding Z's feet to the fire.

Diagram included.
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Gadwins

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2021, 10:27:48 PM »
I am sorry. I shouldn't say "like kavan said", because after that I didn't repeat literally what you said, but pointed out again, that it is an effect of the chin wing.

I didn't criticize you about stopping to talk with him further. I just wanted to point out, that you already said, that blunted jaw angles are a result of chin wing procedure. Nothing more.

You can think from your point of  view (maybe because of moral or different culture background), that this is the fault of the patient not to do their resarch. That's okay, nothing wrong. I am just giving OP some advice. Even if he did some mistake, there are law which is protecting him.

Anyway for everybodyelse who undergo a procedure in germany: the law in germany is very strict about elective surgery. So I can only recommend OP to seak out  legal consule. Surgeons in germany lost cases for similiar things, like not explicit telling the patient about a breast implantat surgery, that the result may be different from what they discussed before. The surgeon has always somehow to prove, that he really told this.

But since germans don't really like to sue, except when the neighboors apples from the tree are falling on their garden, many surgeons just have luck.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2021, 11:12:45 PM by Gadwins »

kavan

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2021, 11:50:14 PM »
I am sorry. I shouldn't say "like kavan said", because after that I didn't repeat literally what you said, but pointed out again, that it is an effect of the chin wing.

I didn't criticize you about stopping to talk with him further. I just wanted to point out, that you already said, that blunted jaw angles are a result of chin wing procedure. Nothing more.

You can think from your point of  view (maybe because of moral or different culture background), that this is the fault of the patient not to do their resarch. That's okay, nothing wrong. I am just giving OP some advice. Even if he did some mistake, there are law which is protecting him.

Anyway for everybodyelse who undergo a procedure in germany: the law in germany is very strict about elective surgery. So I can only recommend OP to seak out  legal consule. Surgeons in germany lost cases for similiar things, like not explicit telling the patient about a breast implantat surgery, that the result may be different from what they discussed before. The surgeon has always somehow to prove, that he really told this.

But since germans don't really like to sue, except when the neighboors apples from the tree are falling on their garden, many surgeons just have luck.

Well, nice to see you back on board Gadwins. Thanx for clarifying.

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Tomasjohn

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2021, 01:24:33 AM »
....   
I would add that if they didn't cut all the way back through the jaw angles and just left them there where they were and just moved the rest of the segment forward, the back jaw angles would not look the same RELATIVE to the forward displacement of the rest of the segment. That's because the mandible gets wider and wider the further back you go. So they are moving a WIDER width more forward which will increase the width of the FRONTAL face (usually a desired goal of the CW). However, if the back jaw angle is LEFT BEHIND, a WIDER width to the front of the face would result in the back jaw angle looking more NARROW via RELATIVE COMPARISON. That's why I think a good thing to move the WHOLE basic segment and not leave the jaw angle area behind.
...

This an important point for everyone (relative comparison of width after a segment is moved forward). I have never read this before. Glad it got mentioned!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 01:40:17 AM by Tomasjohn »

mediumdrinkofwater

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2021, 01:02:57 AM »
Rather than undo the whole chin wing your doctor maybe could just move a segment of the mandible border back to its original position at the angle and fill the new gap in with bone graft. I think that would be the best solution if it is possible.

For this procedure, the initial hip bone graft from the first surgery would have to be removed right? Are there higher risks of blood supply issues with having an additional bonegraft in the mandible?

Tomasjohn

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Re: I had a chin wing - it blunted and rounded my angles
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2021, 02:10:09 AM »
For this procedure, the initial hip bone graft from the first surgery would have to be removed right? Are there higher risks of blood supply issues with having an additional bonegraft in the mandible?

I honestly don't know about the blood supply and I am not 100% sure about the following: I would say that if you wait long enough you don't have to remove anything because the bone is healed.

Because Most bone grafts are expected to be reabsorbed and replaced as the natural bone heals.

This could be informative for u: https://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,8432.0.html
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 03:40:31 AM by Tomasjohn »