Modified lefort 3 or other ways of cheekbone augmentation?

[kavan]

My reply didnt register properly when I quoted you, but I said I will look into more articles.

I edited out the statement that you put inside my quoted comment.

[kavan]

I've seen this reply of yours before Kavan. I undertand where it's coming from. I assure you I've rented a TON of articles. I would appreciate to know if there are noteable articles on it that are hard to find. Like I said, i've even tried contacting said doctor of said article. I even had a consultation with one.

The take home message of my statement is that I don't spoon feed with help about pursuing ML3. So, those wanting this need to rely on their own smarts and ability to research and go on many consultations as did Earl. Not my task here to compensate for any lapses of abilities or luck in that regard.

[BurnSoul]

Alright that is your choice. I respect that.

I will still be open to anyone here who has information on this. I'd greatly appreciate it. Mentally it's really leading me to weird places and I'd rather get it treated or if not consulted with someone who knows about malar region osteotomies extensively. I'm also open to new articles on the matter. I am at a dead end where I do not know where to go from here.

[kavan]

Alright that is your choice. I respect that.

I will still be open to anyone here who has information on this. I'd greatly appreciate it. Mentally it's really leading me to weird places and I'd rather get it treated or if not consulted with someone who knows about malar region osteotomies extensively. I'm also open to new articles on the matter. I am at a dead end where I do not know where to go from here.

Here's a CLUE that you may have missed in Earl's story that I relayed.

1: He went on MANY consultations. Gee, that must have because he knew enough to know that going on many consultations with doctors who did Lefort 3's would kick up more information then bemoaning on this board that he couldn't get all the info he needed from here. I bolded out the word; 'many' and also your word; (only) 'one' (consultation) in hopes that you would get the CLUE that MANY in person consults are needed in this pursuit.

2: The other CLUE inherent in the mention of consulting (in person) with MANY doctors is that a large 'dragnet' would need to be cast to find ANY doctor who would be willing to perform the type of modification of the (whole) L3 that earl wanted. So, he made the LOGICAL DEDUCTION, that doctors who could do L3s MIGHT be able to MODIFY it for his needs. So, the fact he had to consult with MANY doctors who did L3s to find ONE who would do a ML3 suggests he didn't really find a selection of doctors actually openly offering ML3. If there were doctors out there openly offering ML3s  to target for ML3s, he would not have had to cast a large net to consult with MANY doctors who did L3s just to FIND OUT if ANY could accommodate him. From this MANY, he found ONE.

So, the 'conCLUEsion' to be made here is this isn't a procedure doctors want to openly offer or foot e-mail questions about. Some say to do that type of surgery, a neurosurgeon needs to be on board. Others who do L3s would rather do the complete ones only syndrome cases who also need the L1 aspect of it. So, if you even hope to find one, you too would have to consult with MANY doctors who perform L3 (and don't say anything in writing about wanting ML3). It boils down to a situation where you need to be IN the doctor's office as to let him see you don't need a full L3. When he tells you that you don't need a full L3, THEN ask if there is any way he can just advance the part you want advanced. You need to get your foot in the door to a doctor's office who performs the (whole L3's) to bring forth the possibility of it being modified for you and you've gotta be able to foot a lot of rejections in the asking just to find ONE out of the many. That is how it goes.

[GJ]

The take home message of my statement is that I don't spoon feed with help about pursuing ML3. So, those wanting this need to rely on their own smarts and ability to research and go on many consultations as did Earl. Not my task here to compensate for any lapses of abilities or luck in that regard.

Why? If you know something share it. That is the purpose of the forum. It's not to hoard information, increasing the odds someone gets a failed procedure, and then judge people who don't want to read textbooks. This makes you look worse than the person asking a question.

[kavan]

Why? If you know something share it. That is the purpose of the forum. It's not to hoard information, increasing the odds someone gets a failed procedure, and then judge people who don't want to read textbooks. This makes you look worse than the person asking a question.

Did you not notice I took some time in my last entry to share some information with him? Keep in mind, I am a volunteer here and I don't like being obliged or given a guilt trip because I don't spoon feed or otherwise coach people coming in here in pursuit of ML3.  I've made my boundaries quite clear on that years back way before this guy signed up. In the event he signed up here for DIRECT access to me (which appears like he did given he 'jumped' my signature of 'NO PMs') or any expectation that I had some obligation to coach him just because he signed up here, I'm NOT the one who contributed to that expectation.

Again, I am a VOLUNTEER here. Someone who receives no financial contributions for volunteering here (nor do I request any). So, in the event he made a financial contribution here with the expectation I provide him with all the info he needs to pursue ML3 (which you are obliging me via a guilt trip to provide), then maybe he should get a refund.

[BurnSoul]

"The conCLUEsion"
Actually made me cheer up a bit thank you for that.
You are right Kavan. That makes sense. I've never straight up mentioned in the emails the Modified lefort 3 but I think i've phrased it in ways where they can conclude it. You're right I should be getting into their office first. The problem with this is that most of these people are international and in another continent so it becomes hard to even be consulted. I assume Earl traveled a ton for this consultations. I will keep on with my search. I tried tracing people who learned from Sinn but not many that do ML3.

    Something that also makes me wonder is how to phrase it. When I saw Earl's story and Varbrah. It becomes clear that their ML3 movilized only the malar region without the jaws, but the jaws were cut separate anyway. I will phrase it exactly like this. I will email as many that do L3 as I can. The other procedures I've seen that could work is a "lateral swing osteotomy" but there is no information of this anywhere except that one indian article. I continue looking for someone who does this. Discouraging that a doctor here where I'm from that wrote the MOST papers on the matter said he only could do implants.
    Implants are truly terrible in my opinion, if you have the problem me and Earl had, negative vector orbit with BIG eyes. Then you look bad and idk if he had  this but it's a constant pressure on the eyeball because it has no undereye support. Varbrah and Earl were lucky they got to Sinn before he retired. They seem to explain they even had less complications than a standard lefort 1. How is this even possible. Something that also happens with this kind of thing is that when you try to ask surgeons about complications or details they get kind of impatient sometimes. I will do anything on my power to not go to the ones the incels in looksmax forums recommend, for this is a reason I've Sherlock Holmed anything Varbrah or Earl have posted, both Sinn. I will continue searching.

We are not guilt tripping you. I am glad you helped me with the clue, but if you do not want to share information is fine but still saying "I do not spoon feed". We are just asking for help, wether that is "spoon feeding" or not is up to you, but forums are for sharing knowledge. I do agree with the "it's a serious thing so they should do their own research rather than non official source giving info" stuff. I did DM you because I've seen how actually reliable you are, and because you have YEARS in this forum talking about these procedures with mutliple people. I apologize for not noticing your "No pms" thing that was absolutely my bad for rushing it.
     I want to make it clear Kavan that you are obviously an informed person, you do not have obligation like you said to help anyone, forums are for sharing information and having the "People" perspective. The assumption that I signed in just to dm you is not correct. I dmed the people I saw were very informed. You, GJ, Varbrah, and Earl. Only you and GJ responded.

I really appreciate your last response. Even if small it is a stepping stone, that helps. Specially since most of the Article Authors are either retired, or non reachable.

[kavan]

"The conCLUEsion"
Actually made me cheer up a bit thank you for that.
You are right Kavan. That makes sense. I've never straight up mentioned in the emails the Modified lefort 3 but I think i've phrased it in ways where they can conclude it. You're right I should be getting into their office first. The problem with this is that most of these people are international and in another continent so it becomes hard to even be consulted. I assume Earl traveled a ton for this consultations. I will keep on with my search. I tried tracing people who learned from Sinn but not many that do ML3.

    Something that also makes me wonder is how to phrase it. When I saw Earl's story and Varbrah. It becomes clear that their ML3 movilized only the malar region without the jaws, but the jaws were cut separate anyway. I will phrase it exactly like this. I will email as many that do L3 as I can. The other procedures I've seen that could work is a "lateral swing osteotomy" but there is no information of this anywhere except that one indian article. I continue looking for someone who does this. Discouraging that a doctor here where I'm from that wrote the MOST papers on the matter said he only could do implants.
    Implants are truly terrible in my opinion, if you have the problem me and Earl had, negative vector orbit with BIG eyes. Then you look bad and idk if he had  this but it's a constant pressure on the eyeball because it has no undereye support. Varbrah and Earl were lucky they got to Sinn before he retired. They seem to explain they even had less complications than a standard lefort 1. How is this even possible. Something that also happens with this kind of thing is that when you try to ask surgeons about complications or details they get kind of impatient sometimes. I will do anything on my power to not go to the ones the incels in looksmax forums recommend, for this is a reason I've Sherlock Holmed anything Varbrah or Earl have posted, both Sinn. I will continue searching.

We are not guilt tripping you. I am glad you helped me with the clue, but if you do not want to share information is fine but still saying "I do not spoon feed". We are just asking for help, wether that is "spoon feeding" or not is up to you, but forums are for sharing knowledge. I do agree with the "it's a serious thing so they should do their own research rather than non official source giving info" stuff. I did DM you because I've seen how actually reliable you are, and because you have YEARS in this forum talking about these procedures with mutliple people. I apologize for not noticing your "No pms" thing that was absolutely my bad for rushing it.
     I want to make it clear Kavan that you are obviously an informed person, you do not have obligation like you said to help anyone, forums are for sharing information and having the "People" perspective. The assumption that I signed in just to dm you is not correct. I dmed the people I saw were very informed. You, GJ, Varbrah, and Earl. Only you and GJ responded.

I really appreciate your last response. Even if small it is a stepping stone, that helps. Specially since most of the Article Authors are either retired, or non reachable.

'WE'? I didn't claim that YOU were guilt tripping. But GJ clearly did.

Truth be told, I've never actually advised anyone (nor coached them) to pursue ML3. Instead, I've suggested those with 'negative vector' to look into customized orbital rim implants. But when someone is dead set against implants (which you are) and the known surgeon who does ML3 is retired, there's nothing else to suggest other than how Earl made his pursuit which involved many in person consultations to find anyone.

Of course, it would be great if Earl was around the board. But I think that when he was, people started obliging him to share his photos which was something he did not volunteer. Thank you for your understanding here and best of luck with the pursuit of more consults.

[BurnSoul]

It's a shame Earl is not around anymore. Varbrah does not seem to be around either. Doing his methodology is the only thing left. I am dead set against implants because of many things, but yeah negative vector orbit is bad, but terrible when you have big eyes like I do. I'm not a bad looking guy, but the worse thing is knowing I could've not only looked much better but also I could be rid of this weird feeling in my face. Negative vector isn't only having "bulging eyes" but also FEELING that your eyes have no support. Like the skin you can feel it hanging if that makes sense.

    I hope anyone here who finds this thread can please comment whatever they can also find to help come closer to a conclusion for everyone here and that in the future people can have it much easier time finding the specialists. Meanwhile I will keep this thread updated with whatever I can find. Hopefully Varbrah or Earl can comment here when they, if ever. Get online again.

[kavan]

It's a shame Earl is not around anymore. Varbrah does not seem to be around either. Doing his methodology is the only thing left. I am dead set against implants because of many things, but yeah negative vector orbit is bad, but terrible when you have big eyes like I do. I'm not a bad looking guy, but the worse thing is knowing I could've not only looked much better but also I could be rid of this weird feeling in my face. Negative vector isn't only having "bulging eyes" but also FEELING that your eyes have no support. Like the skin you can feel it hanging if that makes sense.

    I hope anyone here who finds this thread can please comment whatever they can also find to help come closer to a conclusion for everyone here and that in the future people can have it much easier time finding the specialists. Meanwhile I will keep this thread updated with whatever I can find. Hopefully Varbrah or Earl can comment here when they, if ever. Get online again.

Negative vector is an aesthetic deficiency due to lack of projection of the orbital rim area. If a vertical line is dropped down from the outermost convexity of the EYEBALL (cornea) and if the orbital rim area is 1-5mm behind that line, it's considered negative vector. Orbital rim implants can provide about 5mm of projection. ML3 advancement, I think less. Negative vector is also referred to as 'prominent eye'. Negative vector or 'prominent eye' don't usually result in physical sensations or FEELINGS of distress but rather just aesthetic distress when looking in mirror.

However, if someone's eyes are really BULGING out a lot, it could be GRAVE'S disease, something that can involve 'feelings' to the eye area. The surgery for very big bulging eyes that could associated with Graves disease is orbital decompression; removal of bone from the ORBIT (eye socket). Surgery is done by an EYE SURGEON. So, consult with an eye doctor to rule out Graves. Advancing the orbital rim area to address an aesthetic deficiency of the orbital rim area in a MF3 differs from removing parts of the ORBIT to give more room for big bulging eyes. An eye doctor would be able to advise you further in the event you actually needed more space in the eye sockets to accommodate the globes (eyeballs).

[BurnSoul]

Yeah.
For me not only the infraorbital area but also the Zygoma, malar, cheekbone area is behind. My eye has almost no support on the undereye area.
It's quite terrible. I just spoke with the Dr I went with in person consultation again by message and he says the only option he offers is implants. It causes me distress not only by mirror but also by feeling it. I feel it. When I smile for example, I feel how instead of there being something to hold the skin after I stop is not there. I only feel skin rising up and down and by consequence I have a weird smile where only skin and muscle moves into where cheeks are supposed to be. My jaws are normal it's only that third part that is inward or not grown properly.
      I just contacted Alfil. Apparently he doesn't do ml3. I will keep on looking. I just hope Dr Sinn was not the LAST of his kind willing to do this kind of procedure. Obwegeser just stopped replying a while ago altogether.

[kavan]

...if someone's eyes are really BULGING out a lot, it could be GRAVE'S disease, ... consult with an eye doctor to rule out Graves....

[GJ]

My point is that this forum is here to help people. If the answer is something like, "you didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help" it's completely missing the point. There are people with life alternating, negative deformities who are desperate and want help. It frankly borders on sociopathy to say something to the effect of, "I know the answer, but I'm not telling you."

You're better off completely ignoring a thread rather than posting s**t like that. Otherwise, it's conflicting in that you don't want to spend energy helping someone, but you do want to spend energy berating them. Again, this is sociopathic and domineering.

If you don't want to volunteer information you know, then don't volunteer, period. But to sign up to volunteer and then hold back information while dangling carrots in front of users is just messed up.

Note: I do agree if someone sets clear boundaries like "No PMs" and then someone sends a PM, they should be berated. But that's different than what goes on in some of these threads where you just get the user walking on egg shells as you domineer them.

[BurnSoul]

I consulted first with optometrist. Oculist (how we call them in spanis)
No graves disease. Even he could tell I just have big eyes and no projection of malar region. He called them cheekbones but I know what he meant.

[kavan]

My point is that this forum is here to help people. If the answer is something like, "you didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help" it's completely missing the point. There are people with life alternating, negative deformities who are desperate and want help. It frankly borders on sociopathy to say something to the effect of, "I know the answer, but I'm not telling you."

You're better off completely ignoring a thread rather than posting s**t like that. Otherwise, it's conflicting in that you don't want to spend energy helping someone, but you do want to spend energy berating them. Again, this is sociopathic and domineering.

If you don't want to volunteer information you know, then don't volunteer, period. But to sign up to volunteer and then hold back information while dangling carrots in front of users is just messed up.

Note: I do agree if someone sets clear boundaries like "No PMs" and then someone sends a PM, they should be berated. But that's different than what goes on in some of these threads where you just get the user walking on egg shells as you domineer them.

My point is that I don't volunteer for you to put a guilt trip on me in circumstances where I'm not volunteering to coach, coddle, advise or otherwise 'spoonfeed', especially in highly esoteric procedures like ML3 where people sign up for your board BECAUSE EARL HAD THIS, but isn't here and I'm 'the one who might (or might not) know all about this'. I've NEVER claimed I'm conversant in ML3s.

It is a FACT that Earl had the 'smarts' and educational background enough to do the research he did, which took YEARS which was needed to pursue such a procedure. That is a very salient aspect of such a pursuit. I never said: 'You didn't read enough academic journals or text books to warrant help' . Not my problem if you misconstrue my words. I pointed out the FACT Earl was able to do that. It's also true that IF I wanted the procedure for myself (which I'm not pursuing), I would be able to digest all the material, do the research as did Earl. But that doesn't OBLIGE me to be a PROXY for Earl. Nor does it warrant any guilt trips from you.

The issue here as far as I'm concerned is that when people sign up for your board (and provide a financial contribution to do so) and sign up to pursue what Earl had, there should be no expectation that 'because I could or would' know more than others on here that I'm obliged to advise them on this. Clearly, you furthered that expectation and went about shaming me for not catering to it and it is exactly THAT type of thing I rather not YOU volunteer my help for when I've made clear I'm NOT volunteering to coach or advise on ML3s. So, what ever expectations new sign ups might have that I 'should' be able to help with this should NOT part of any impression they might have with what ever financial contribution they provide for signing up here.

I would suggest you make clear to prospective members that what ever financial contributions they provide is for internet upkeep expenses only and does not involve specialized access, advice, coaching..etc from any one particular member. That would be preferable to your blatantly DISRESPECTING my choice NOT to cater to ML3 sign ups and TOTALLY IGNORING that I gave him some help. BECAUSE you put a guilt trip on me this way and continued to do so DESPITE my offering him some help, I'm not inclined to say anything more to him at all.

So, not only did you try to shame and put a guilt trip on me for NOT volunteering to advise, coach etc. But you CONTINUED to do so AFTER I did give him some helpful advice. Put a guilt trip on me for not volunteering what I don't choose to volunteer and go on to SHAME me after I DO volunteer some advice and call me  'sociopathic' in the process and you think YOUR statements will motivate me to give this member any further advice? On the contrary. You've done the OPPOSITE.
So, shame and guilt trip as much as you want. In that way, it should help 'Burnt Soul' understand WHY I won't be volunteering any more commentary to him given the environment that anything I say, don't say or isn't said in a way that YOU don't like it to be said will be held against me.