jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => General Chat => Topic started by: tyler18 on June 03, 2014, 12:13:39 PM
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If I get a sliding genioplasty, I will be left with an ape-like lower face because my upper jaw is overly prominent.
Are there many beautiful people with ante-faces? I have looked, and they are far and few between. This is making me reconsider my options.
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Most beautiful people have an ante face but not all people with an ante face are beautiful, if that makes sense? It depends on your facial proportions and the rest of the features.
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If you've naturally got a degree of protrusion then a genio will more than likely provide a nice balance rather than look freaky.
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Surgically enhanced ante-faces are very bizarre looking, especially when you compare it to a naturally looking result.
(http://i.imgur.com/z9WmNGt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/is3e058.jpg)
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I actually prefer the first one in this instance :-[
The second girl with the more natural result is really bland and instantly forgettable.
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Definitely prefer the first one. Although her gonial implant is too sharp.
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BTW, there was a MM study (I know everyone loves this guy), where it was shown that slight ante faces are preferred on women, stronger ones on men.
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The first one is a Sailer result and it looks comically bad, she doesn't even look human in the after.
The Richard Joseph result (red-headed girl) is tastefully done IMO.
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Sigh, no love for the ante face around here. I'm pre op and have one! The maxillary advancement will make it even stronger!
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Her gonial angle in the Sailer patient just looks too fake. It kind of freaks me out lol
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Oh yea, it does look fake. Like I've read on here multiple times, you cant have this surgery to look like someone else. Just enhance your own looks, which is all im going for.
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^too harsh. lol.
How much advancement are you going to have?
I used to have ante face before my bicuspids were removed and I want it back!
6 mm forward, 1 mm down
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Thanks for answering. Do you need any bone implants for the 1mm down movement?
Forgot to ask. This is all very preliminary. Final planning in September. I'm a class iii btw. Also, the cut can be made at a down ward angle rather than horizontally. No need for a bone graft then.
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Are you insane?
The first girl looks extremely good in the after.
Better than the second girl, for sure. Yes the gonial implants are fake looking IF you have done research on those topics. Normal people wouldn't notice at all. It looks strong and good.
And I'm not a Sailer fan usually.
I think Sailer gets critized too harshly. His patients are usually older adults, so it's not like he is disfiguring kids who cannot make informed decisions. Sailer's patients go to him, because they share his vision of beauty and want to radically change their appearance - and that is exactly what he does for them.
Personally, I think his blanket approach (slap a hyper ante face on everyone) to beauty is wrong, but he does have some good results. And no one of his patients can complain about looking underdone, so if you decide on having surgery with him, at least you can be sure to have a vastly altered appearance afterwards.
The woman in the before and after does look better after her surgery with him.
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Can someone please explain what an ante-face is and what qualifies one as having an ante-face?
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Ante-face: Middle and lower face that protrudes forward to a great extent (e. g. Angelina Jolie), corresponding to our ideal of absolute beauty.
Left picture = ante-face
(http://i.imgur.com/FHzb83M.jpg)
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IMO an attractive face must have strong cheekbones. How would they pop on an ante face? OTOH, Sean Opry has anante face and his cheekbones pop.
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Can someone please explain what an ante-face is and what qualifies one as having an ante-face?
Both jaws are prognathic in the "ante-face." It's basically the classic ape face.
I don't think any of this mental gymnastics changes my mind. An orthognathic profile is always better.
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what the hell is with head position in all these pictures. Each post-op picture trying to portray a strong jaw depicts the person with their head tilted in an upward gaze. It's deceiving when trying to compare different results.
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That's exactly what I've been thinking! What's going on? I can't tell if that's their new normal, or if the person taking the photos had them posture that way, or if they're looking up, or even bringing their head forward. I think they all look fine post-op, I just can't figure out what's going on...something's weird.
I would love to see these patients in normal, everyday life. I think that would be the only way to tell.
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IMO an attractive face must have strong cheekbones. How would they pop on an ante face? OTOH, Sean Opry has ananteface and his cheekbones pop.
I have a suspicion that in order to have defined cheekbones or even concave cheeks with an ante-face, then they have to be high set.
In an average profile high or low set could "pop" but like I say, I have a feeling that strong low set cheekbones may not be very visible with an ante-face.
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I think they have to have a certain amount of lateral projection too to stand out on an ante-face.
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Re: fassbender
Long vertical ramus is important. The cheekbones are more likely to pop.
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Fassbender gives me the creeps, with or without ante face.
*shudders*
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If you're white and don't have an ante face (per the description above) then you have midface hypoplasia or something. HOW can a white person have a flat face? I don't think this is possible without being syndromatic (?).
I believe ante-face was coined to describe the more pronounced protrusion of the maxilla and lower jaw. Just because they're in front of the radix doesn't mean it should be ante imo.
Finally, I feel it's overhyped. The Marquardt Mask isn't particularly ante, yet looks incredibly good regardless of whether you agree with all of its markers or not.
P.S Those morphs above were shocking lol. He looked like s**t when you tried liquifying a strong anteface onto him.
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Well both girls look far better than they did before...
I think my female face preference would be somewhere in between the two.
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It sounds like folks are divided on those two surgery results. I like the second one better. She's very pretty in this angled after pic:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The first one is a Sailer result and it looks comically bad, she doesn't even look human in the after.
The Richard Joseph result (red-headed girl) is tastefully done IMO.
Comically bad really? I wonder what the responses would be if this was an unknown surgeon's work.
It's just hip to bash Sailer on here.
I agree with Modigliani that the Joseph girl looks bland and forgettable.
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Comically bad really? I wonder what the responses would be if this was an unknown surgeon's work.
It's just hip to bash Sailer on here.
I agree with Modigliani that the Joseph girl looks bland and forgettable.
Just lol @ your denial. If you even think this after is the real after I feel sorry for you because you're about to get seriously burnt by whichever surgeon you fall for.
Sailer is guilty of:
- Photoshopping after results on his website
- Using make-up on afters
- Creating intentionally bad befores with patients looking downwards
- Creating deceptive afters with patients looking upwards to accentuate results and ante-face
- Being deceitful about his "inventions"
- Performing botched rhinoplasties on males and females
- Having no understanding of true aesthetics and his own surgical ability to achieve that
And yes the other result isn't amazing, but she clearly didn't go to her surgeon for a cosmetic makeover. Plus her starting point was markedly different.
You can NOT surgically create a good looking face. You can NOT surgically create a natural looking ante face. Most of Sailer's (photoshopped) results have a very monkey-eqsue appearance to them.
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(http://i.imgur.com/z9WmNGt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/058jDV3.jpg)
brb I couldn't find a proper wall to have my before taken against. brb looking sad. brb oops I forgot make-up. brb oops I also didn't do my hair that day. brb brb.
brb in my after I had perfect make-up. brb my complexion was perfect that day. brb for no apparent reason my after has shadows despite surgical photography methods making this occurance at best extremely rare. brb I did my hair. brb jewellery. brb star gazing in my after
Sailer shill please.
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Disillusioned, I'm very aware of everything you say, yet clearly don't agree with your last bullet point.
Her head is also turned slightly more towards the camera as in more of a 3/4 angle in the after.
Still, from the photos that are provided, I believe that I really like her result.
Most of Sailer's (photoshopped) results have a very monkey-eqsue appearance to them
Yes I like that.
I appreciate you're nervous about your upcoming surgery but there's no need to throw your muck at me.
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Disillusioned, I'm very aware of everything you say, yet clearly don't agree with your last bullet point.
Her head is also turned slightly more towards the camera as in more of a 3/4 angle in the after.
Still, from the photos that are provided, I believe that I really like her result.
Yes I like that.
I appreciate you're nervous about your upcoming surgery but there's no need to throw your muck at me.
It has nothing to do with that. It's because you're defending a known con man by dismissing criticisms as "hip" - implying there is no factual basis for them.
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It has nothing to do with that. It's because you're defending a known con man by dismissing criticisms as "hip" - implying there is no factual basis for them.
I didn't mean to defend photo manipulation (despite it being prevalent in every market that I can think of, including orthognathic surgery).
I just disagree that her result is "comically bad" and question whether his response would change if the surgeon's identity was hidden.
Sailer being a "known con man" is quite a serious accusation.
I don't think I can say anything else on the subject until next year as I don't want to speculate.
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I didn't mean to defend photo manipulation (despite it being prevalent in every market that I can think of, including orthognathic surgery).
I just disagree that her result is "comically bad" and question whether his response would change if the surgeon's identity was hidden.
Sailer being a "known con man" is quite a serious accusation.
I don't think I can say anything else on the subject until next year as I don't want to speculate.
I don't agree with saying she looks comically bad either. At least not once her head is rotated to a natural angle.
Con man: a man who cheats or tricks someone by means of a confidence trick.
Sailer-style photo manipulation is not prevalent at all in my opinion. I've seen deceptive head angles in afters. And I've seen koreans use lots of make-up. But the blatant photoshopping is really some next level s**t.
Just look at the woman's gonial angle. That is without a shadow of a doubt photoshopped as well. The shading is very unnatural and I often get similar results when editing photos in a hurry.
The one of the man they photoshopped was even worse again, as the real result was quite bad and had a botched rhino. I tried finding it but they appear to have taken it off their website after we had a thread on it here a while back.
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It does look shopped to hell, any surgeon that employs such tactics is pretty shady in my book.
Having said that though, I do favour the striking look of ante face but I'm not sure it's necessarily right for everyone and I personally would avoid any surgeon that was pushing a 'one size fits all' approach.
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I had double jaw surgery on July 23rd and I am very unhappy with my results. I am now 2.5 months post op and with the more swelling that decreases the more unhappy I get. I had an underbite and my surgeon decided to move both my upper and lower FORWARD! I already had a long jaw start with so I told him I was not comfortable with that but he assured me everything would turn out great. He is a well known surgeon considered one of the best and was referred to me by both doctors and patients so I trusted him.
His original plan was to move my upper 6.3mm and only rotate the bottom. I asked him for a chin reduction but he kept insisting that I did not need one. From all the research I did I had seen that chin reduction gave a better result. Specially since he wasn't planning on moving my bottom back. As we discussed more options the plan to move the lower 1.5mm came up. That meant the upper would have to move forward a little more to 7.5mm instead of 6.3mm. This was supposed to open up my airway even more. He still didn't want to do a chin reduction but I insisted. This was only two days before my surgery. We agreed on that plan and I went home.
I couldn't sleep all night because I was so worried. I had heard cases where with such aggressive upper jaw movement people ended up with a chimp look but he assured me I wouldn't. I also told him that I didn't want my bottom jaw to look longer but he said it wouldn't and not to worry. That night I decided not do go through with that option so I emailed him saying to go back to his original plan and not move my lower forward and to also reduce my chin vertically. He only responded to the email about the chin saying he didn't recommend reducing it too much. I thought, he knows better so I agreed.
The next day was surgery. He said he received my email but again told me not to worry about the bottom coming forward because it was only a little bit and that it would be ok. I was still uneasy but I still thought, he knows better.
Well, 2.5 months later and I regret agreeing with him so much. I had shown him plenty of pictures of results I liked and he said he understood what I wanted. He gave me completely the opposite. I know have an even worse ante-face than before, and it does not look good on me, specially since I don't have prominent cheekbones under my eyes. I'm so devestated. To think I went through all of that and spent all of that money to end up this unhappy. I am trying to get him to fix it. It's not fair!!! I'm very anti-anteface!
Not only is my lower jaw still long, if not longer, but now my upper jaw protrudes as well. And he only reduced my chin very little so it still looks super pointy and ugly. He has not agreed to fix this. I don't know what to do. I don't have the money to pay for a revision on my own.
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Adding more pictures
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I think you look fine from the front but I do agree with you that you don't have enough support under the eyes to move both jaws forward like that. Did you really have that big of an underbite? It hardly looks like you have an underbite in the before pictures. I'm amazed at the projection you got in the midface from such "small" movements.
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Was it the very famous Santa Barbara surgeons?
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I had a small underbite. Only 6mm. I really wish he would have move my upper forward about 4mm and lower maybe 2 BACK not forward! :( and the chin reduction is almost none existent! I'm so disappointed in my results. Something else he did that I am not happy about is he impacted my upper jaw about 1mm. Apparently moving my upper jaw forward 7mm was going to cause a gummy smile or something. When I smiled my teeth used to show really nicely. Now my lip covers half my teeth. :(
No it was not the Santa Barbara doctors, however, I did schedule an appointment with one of them in December for another opinion. Are they known to cause results like this?
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Sorry that you're unhappy with the result, I agree that your chin should be reduced in height slightly but only in the last image and the one that you've labeled "long pointy", in the others it looks fine so I don't know if it's lens or angle distortion making it appear longer?
I honestly think the jaws look very nice and even exotic on you but maybe I've developed some sort of sick ante-face fetish :o
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I really liked my smile a lot better before surgery :( Besides the fact that I think it looks masculine, I don't like the ante-face on me because I have a very small body frame. I am only 5'2" and these features do not go with me at all.
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Arnett and Gunson do like the whole ante-face thing and are known to make large movements but they're hardly known for producing bad surgery results.
I don't think you need a chin reduction by the way.
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I don't like how my jaw points downward so much. I really wanted it to be a little more horizontal. *sigh* I really don't want to put myself through genioplasty again. But I do want to move both upper and lower jaws back a bit. I feel like an ape. Completely the opposite of what I told my surgeon I wanted.
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I love this girl's results. I really wanted something like this. She still has a defined jaw but very feminine and delicate. Her entire mouth and chin do not protrude beyond her forehead line.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It's difficult because of scar tissue and stuff but it can be revised, I'm getting both my jaws set back in a few months after they were advanced too much a year ago My new surgeon reckons he can move them back 3 or 4mms which will be about right, so don't panic it is fixable :)
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Oh thank you so much! I think you are the first person that I have found in the exact same situation as mine! What did you have before your first surgery? Underbite or overbite?
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It's difficult because of scar tissue and stuff but it can be revised, I'm getting both my jaws set back in a few months after they were advanced too much a year ago My new surgeon reckons he can move them back 3 or 4mms which will be about right, so don't panic it is fixable :)
Fixable yes, but at what cost? She said she didn't have any money for a revision.
I think you should have a consultation with Arnett and Gunson because they understand this whole ante-face bulls**t. If they don't even like the result then you should go back to your previous surgeon and demand a revision. How was the first surgery funded? Insurance?
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LOL, I remember exactly how you feel, I couldn't find any info either, I was going out of my mind...we're special snowflakes ;D
I was a class ii, so overbite and overjet but I had the worst surgeon in the world and he did literally everything wrong.
Definitely go and see A@G, they're disgustingly expensive to have surgery with but the consultation is well worth it judging from what others have said. I'm in Europe so didn't see them myself but would have done if I'd been in the US.
Dr Sinn is in Texas, he might be worth a consultation if you haven't seen him already. My UK surgeon spoke very highly of Dale Bloomquist in Seattle I think, bit of a trek for you but he might be a good stand by.
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I'm consulting with Gunson on December 4th and taking his workup to my surgeon. I'm still trying to get him to agree to redo my surgery. I know it's too soon right now and I will have to wait until 6 months post op but I want him to at least agree already so that we can get the ball rolling. My current surgeon still claims everything is perfect. Right now not even my bit is right. It is still asymmetrical but supposedly orthodontics will be fixing that.
Insurance covered my surgery but I had to pay $3,500 out of pocket plus $3,500 for chin reduction plus the braces!
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Fixable yes, but at what cost? She said she didn't have any money for a revision.
I think you should have a consultation with Arnett and Gunson because they understand this whole ante-face bulls**t. If they don't even like the result then you should go back to your previous surgeon and demand a revision. How was the first surgery funded? Insurance?
I just wanted to reassure her that it is doable. Perhaps she has grounds for a legal case?
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Thanks Modigliani! I will look into those surgeons. It will be difficult getting surgery with someone else since most likely insurance won't cover a second surgery because my bite is technically fixed. :(
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I'm consulting with Gunson on December 4th and taking his workup to my surgeon. I'm still trying to get him to agree to redo my surgery. I know it's too soon right now and I will have to wait until 6 months post op but I want him to at least agree already so that we can get the ball rolling. My current surgeon still claims everything is perfect. Right now not even my bit is right. It is still asymmetrical but supposedly orthodontics will be fixing that.
Insurance covered my surgery but I had to pay $3,500 out of pocket plus $3,500 for chin reduction plus the braces!
Would you trust your original surgeon to fix it?
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I just wanted to reassure her that it is doable. Perhaps she has grounds for a legal case?
I hope it doesn't have to come to that. My surgeon is actually a very highly recommended surgeon. I don't know what happened in my case. I think he rushed through it. He is always overbooked and has like 5 surgeries per week, probably more.
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I hope it doesn't have to come to that. My surgeon is actually a very highly recommended surgeon. I don't know what happened in my case. I think he rushed through it. He is always overbooked and has like 5 surgeries per week, probably more.
If the surgical plan is wrong it doesn't matter how technical proficient the surgeon is.
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You are right... ugh! I could really use winning the lottery right about now!
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Wouldn't the insurance company need to approve the revision? Even if the surgeon agrees to waive his own fee then you'll still be left with the hospital cost and what not and that part can be ridiculously expensive.
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yes, which is why i am trying to get him to agree right now. There must be something he can do to get insurance to cover it. He cannot leave me hanging like this!
Modigliani, when is your revision surgery?
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Jan/Feb some time, I've had to have another 6 months in braces to prepare the teeth, again ::) Just want it all over with and my life back, you know?
Saw your other post, what makes you think it hasn't healed?
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I am only 2.5 months post op. So I have to wait for the scar tissue to disappear. And I know what you mean, I want to move on with my life too!! Do you mind sharing any pictures?
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Don't feel comfortable sharing pics yet, the bastard left me with an open bite as well as everything else so I'm a real sight for sore eyes :o
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I like ante faces, but this is too much!
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Yes, it is too much. And since I have no support under my eyes it looks worse.
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I am only 2.5 months post op. So I have to wait for the scar tissue to disappear. And I know what you mean, I want to move on with my life too!! Do you mind sharing any pictures?
What areas do you still have scar tissue? Im around 2.5 months post op too
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You guys are not considering the Frankfurt horizontal line when assessing the ante-faces in the pictures.
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Whiz KaKhalifa is a guy. Those features do not look good on most girls.
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This is what I wish my face would look like vs what it looks like now.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The morph is beautiful, pinky, you should take it along to your consultations.
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My surgeon is still not cooperating. I don't know what to do.
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What do you mean, 'not cooperating'?
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He still claims there is nothing wrong with the way my face looks. It is not what we discussed before surgery. I do not look like my family anymore or my ethnicity. My upper is too forward and my lower is still so long.
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He's clearly talking out of his arse but getting the bastards to admit they've f**ked up is pretty much impossible unless it's something functional.
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You need a second opinion from a reputable surgeon. Once you have that then you have more options for how to proceed. Have you talked with your insurance company so that you know if a revision will be covered?
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This is what I wish my face would look like vs what it looks like now.
did you get your surgery done in prof&dr. sailer, the one who claims he discovered anteface?
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I realize this is an old thread but I can't believe folks are saying the post-surgery blonde girl looks better than the post-surgery brunette. What a joke! The brunette wins by a landslide - it's not close. I don't know about Photoshop and what not, but judging from those pictures alone, she went from ugly to hot. The blonde... eh.