jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: UKMaxfac on May 27, 2017, 08:38:53 AM
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I thought I understood, but I look at some of the men women go out with and I just cannot fathom why they would bother or be at all interested in them.
Then there's me who can't get a girl I'm attracted to even though I don't think I'm that ugly - but women think I am.
Is there just some kind of radar they have and they can pick up bad pheromones / asymmetries?
I'd like this to be an actual discussion based on facts and reasoning, not 'women like confidence' or 'women like a good sense of humor' - neither of those things are the basis of physical attraction. Danny Devito can be as confident as he likes but he's not getting any decent women without his celebrity status.
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I fully believe Tinder has proven what women find good looking in men.
IMO, zygos (width + high set) + eye area by far determine attractiveness.
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Bone proportions. They should my symetrical. Sexual dimorphism i.e strong square jaw and thick imposing brow. FORWARD GROWTH
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Symmetry of the face and a strong jawline are like 90% of the attractiveness in a mans face.
Handsome men grow massive beards and still look handsome.
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Yeah but those beards are growing ON JAWS.
JAWS OF THUNDER!!!!
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Symmetry is not important, because it's very hard to spot asymmetries in motion. Bradley Cooper is a good example. I also don't think eyes are as important as many believe. Eyes are quite important for selfies/tinder/instagram, but not so much when you see someone in real life.
I think the important thing is to not have significant recession anywhere, with jaw/chin protrusion being the most important trait. Also good looking males usually have low bodyfat, good skin and hair.
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Eyes are extremely crucial actually. They can make or break u.
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I think it comes down to milimeters, those world class surgeons who understand and analyze features down to every possible spacing, angle and position got the right idea. I don't think it's about a particular part of the face, I mean you can find handsome and average guys who can both have the same solid feature.
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There is an old school word - photogenicity. In the olden days it was common wisdom that some people may look better in real life than on camera. I thought it was a cop-out to make people feel better about themselves... but I've recently met people who look good in their photos, but are quite average when you see them in person. So maybe it's not a cop-out after all. However, with social networking being so big these days, it seems like it's more important to look good on camera than IRL. IMO, noses have a huge impact on photogenicity. Probably why almost everyone in Hollywood has had rhinoplasty.
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I disagree. Eyes area is extremely important. To me, having a very good eye area is indicative of a strong zygomatic area which frames the entire face.
People like shimansky or lachowski don't have particularly strong lower thirds/jaws. What they do have are solid eye + cheek areas.
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Having 32 nice straight teeth, or the space for them has got to be a good starting point.
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I disagree. Eyes area is extremely important. To me, having a very good eye area is indicative of a strong zygomatic area which frames the entire face.
People like shimansky or lachowski don't have particularly strong lower thirds/jaws. What they do have are solid eye + cheek areas.
https://fashionweekdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/BFA_10086_1218467-800x470-14128700011.jpg
in what world is this not a "strong" jawline?
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https://fashionweekdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/BFA_10086_1218467-800x470-14128700011.jpg
in what world is this not a "strong" jawline?
+1
And I do not think Shimansky has a "solid eye area" (for a mm)
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I disagree. Eyes area is extremely important. To me, having a very good eye area is indicative of a strong zygomatic area which frames the entire face.
People like shimansky or lachowski don't have particularly strong lower thirds/jaws. What they do have are solid eye + cheek areas.
Shimansky has one of the biggest, sculpted jaws I have ever seen... And Lachowski has a square jaw too
The only male model I can think of who doesn't have a perfectly square 90 degree jaw is David Gandy, funnily enough. His gonial angle looks very rounded off in some candid photos of him. But it's insignificant.
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It's quite complex. It can't be stated briefly. There are many distances, ratios and individual features to consider if you want a full answer to this.
To simplify it...
1. FACE SHAPE - Yes, basically strong cheekbones and jaw and the RELATION between these two. Cheekbones are more important. You must also consider the temples and cheeks. Light bulb shaped heads are very unattractive. Chubby cheeks are unattractive.
2. EYE AREA - The lower eyelid should be straight for men. Positive canthal tilt. Strong brow ridge which creates hooding of the upper eyelid over the eyes and low set eyebrows.
3. Skin, hair, etc.
Believe me, face shape and eye area are the two most elemental things. Address these first and foremost.
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It's quite complex. It can't be stated briefly. There are many distances, ratios and individual features to consider if you want a full answer to this.
To simplify it...
1. FACE SHAPE - Yes, basically strong cheekbones and jaw and the RELATION between these two. Cheekbones are more important. You must also consider the temples and cheeks. Light bulb shaped heads are very unattractive. Chubby cheeks are unattractive.
2. EYE AREA - The lower eyelid should be straight for men. Positive canthal tilt. Strong brow ridge which creates hooding of the upper eyelid over the eyes and low set eyebrows.
3. Skin, hair, etc.
Believe me, face shape and eye area are the two most elemental things. Address these first and foremost.
Well put.
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https://fashionweekdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/BFA_10086_1218467-800x470-14128700011.jpg
in what world is this not a "strong" jawline?
I mean it looks good dead on. The jawline is strong but I still wouldn't say its a strong jaw as from the side his jaw looks recessed at least in this picture:
http://ftape.com/model/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Brian-Shimansky-The-Model-Wall-FTAPE-03.jpg
Similarly with someone like Bateman - his side profile doesn't measure up to those with strong jaws imo. (Cavill, O'Pry, etc)
If both of those guys posted their side profiles here, there would be multiple people telling them they needed some form of jaw surgery to address the 'recession' they have.
I stand by what I said. Cheek + eye area are by far the most important elements for attractiveness.
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That guys brow bone is ginormous
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I mean it looks good dead on. The jawline is strong but I still wouldn't say its a strong jaw as from the side his jaw looks recessed at least in this picture:
http://ftape.com/model/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Brian-Shimansky-The-Model-Wall-FTAPE-03.jpg
Similarly with someone like Bateman - his side profile doesn't measure up to those with strong jaws imo. (Cavill, O'Pry, etc)
If both of those guys posted their side profiles here, there would be multiple people telling them they needed some form of jaw surgery to address the 'recession' they have.
I stand by what I said. Cheek + eye area are by far the most important elements for attractiveness.
He's looking down in that picture. He's not recessed.
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That guys brow bone is ginormous
Is that good or bad?
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How much do you guys think eye COLOR matters?
I think if you have got the shape etc then it can bump eyes up to an ethereal category. Otherwise , whatever.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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How much do you guys think eye COLOR matters?
I think if you have got the shape etc then it can bump eyes up to an ethereal category. Otherwise , whatever.
The shape is more important. Most people don't even notice or pay attention to the color of your eyes.
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The most important parts applicable to all males are first of all not having any significant deviations from proper facial growth/formation . After that it's soft tissue quality/complexion.
Other things depend on the particular male phenotype. For instance, for older males dimorphism is more important. For teenage pretty boys, dimorphism will be much less important. There's also the issue of the presence of particular features that 'halo' the individual. For instance a v shaped jaw or sparkling pretty eyes will halo the rest of the face.
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Bone proportions. They should my symetrical. Sexual dimorphism i.e strong square jaw and thick imposing brow. FORWARD GROWTH
You forgot good shape of the bones. People seem to not talk enough about the shape of the bones to a precise level and delve too much into forwards growth and symmetry.
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I think it comes down to milimeters, those world class surgeons who understand and analyze features down to every possible spacing, angle and position got the right idea. I don't think it's about a particular part of the face, I mean you can find handsome and average guys who can both have the same solid feature.
Which surgeons are the ones who can do that? I heard Gunson knows his stuff very well.
I'm certain that pretty much anything except a rhinoplasty and genioplasty won't help me when it comes to current technology. But I'm just curious what makes me so unattractive. I have a general idea, but I would wish to know elaborately even though I'm helpless about all these things for curiosity sake so I can do morphs to see how handsome I could have been in another parallel universe.
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There is an old school word - photogenicity. In the olden days it was common wisdom that some people may look better in real life than on camera. I thought it was a cop-out to make people feel better about themselves... but I've recently met people who look good in their photos, but are quite average when you see them in person. So maybe it's not a cop-out after all. However, with social networking being so big these days, it seems like it's more important to look good on camera than IRL. IMO, noses have a huge impact on photogenicity. Probably why almost everyone in Hollywood has had rhinoplasty.
Yes, a study showed that once social media became mainstream, the number of rhinoplasties done went up.
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Yes, a study showed that once social media became mainstream, the number of rhinoplasties done went up.
Right, which just indicates there are vast numbers of idiots in the world. Rhino's hardly do s**t, and mostly make people look worse.
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Right, which just indicates there are vast numbers of idiots in the world. Rhino's hardly do s**t, and mostly make people look worse.
Its because most people are dumbasses. They look at a particular celeb and be like "I WANT HIS/HER NOSE REEEEEEEEEE" without considering if it actually fits their nose and harmony.
Rhino would help me though, haha. But for most, its a waste of time.
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Right, which just indicates there are vast numbers of idiots in the world. Rhino's hardly do s**t, and mostly make people look worse.
Well, although I agree that dumb people far outnumber smart people, as far as rhinos are concerned, I would extrapolate that smart people isolate good reason(s) to get one which is
WHEN the nose detracts from the rest of the face, especially in cases where others give one GRIEF for one's nose (make fun of it) or in other clear cut cases where the nose is a key detractor. For example, people who are PICKED ON for the appearance of their nose, get the most RELIEF from rhinoplasty.
The other group of those getting them; 'not so smart' or just dumb are what I call the 'NOSE PICKERS'; those who don't have appearance problems with thier nose but are looking for some kind of 'perfection' or who have requests like; 'I want this or that celeb's nose.', 'I need surgery for this MINOR thing that no one else but me obsessing in the mirror notices.'....STUFF LIKE THAT. For example, people with ultra PICKY requests who get rhino to pick and choose, the 'exact' model of nose they want.
That said, when I ISOLATE rhino outcomes to those I would deem with a legit need of IMPROVEMENT, I see improvement in most of the people in THAT group who get it. The other group is what I call the 'NOSE PICKERS' where their picky reasons to get rhino might not give much to any improvement at all. For example an exacting request to have a nose just like 'this or that' celeb or in accordance to 'this or that' change can end up being the wrong nose for their face.
So, when you say rhinos 'mostly' make people look WORSE, which GROUP of people are you looking at, the ones who have noses that detract from their face or the ones who would look fine if they just left their nose alone?
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Well, although I agree that dumb people far outnumber smart people, as far as rhinos are concerned, I would extrapolate that smart people isolate good reason(s) to get one which is
WHEN the nose detracts from the rest of the face, especially in cases where others give one GRIEF for one's nose (make fun of it) or in other clear cut cases where the nose is a key detractor. For example, people who are PICKED ON for the appearance of their nose, get the most RELIEF from rhinoplasty.
The other group of those getting them; 'not so smart' or just dumb are what I call the 'NOSE PICKERS'; those who don't have appearance problems with thier nose but are looking for some kind of 'perfection' or who have requests like; 'I want this or that celeb's nose.', 'I need surgery for this MINOR thing that no one else but me obsessing in the mirror notices.'....STUFF LIKE THAT. For example, people with ultra PICKY requests who get rhino to pick and choose, the 'exact' model of nose they want.
That said, when I ISOLATE rhino outcomes to those I would deem with a legit need of IMPROVEMENT, I see improvement in most of the people in THAT group who get it. The other group is what I call the 'NOSE PICKERS' where their picky reasons to get rhino might not give much to any improvement at all. For example an exacting request to have a nose just like 'this or that' celeb or in accordance to 'this or that' change can end up being the wrong nose for their face.
So, when you say rhinos 'mostly' make people look WORSE, which GROUP of people are you looking at, the ones who have noses that detract from their face or the ones who would look fine if they just left their nose alone?
For the perfectionists I wonder why the emphasis on rhinos though? Often, the issues are more than just noses for all things considered.
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For the perfectionists I wonder why the emphasis on rhinos though? Often, the issues are more than just noses for all things considered.
Well, if the REST OF THE face is a big part of the problem and if the person thinks the whole problem is just the nose, a rhino won't give much satisfaction either to the possessor of the face or the onlookers of it because the decision to get it resolved to not noticing the rest of the face was mostly the problem. They might just look in the mirror after getting a rhino, for example after a request was fulfilled by a PS to give the same/similar nose as a celeb, and find in no way to they look like the celeb. Ultimately the expectation was if they got a PART of the face that looked like 'what a celeb has', they should 'therefore' look like the celeb. It's a FALSE expectation given the WHOLE of the celeb (or model's) face, the whole attractiveness of it is NOT solely attributable to ONE part; the nose. But rather the balance of the rest of their face where the nose they have fits into the whole GESTALT balance.
A good 'do it yourself' diagnostic to tell if the nose is the MAJOR problem to the face as in DETRACTS from the rest of the face is to simply COVER the nose with your hand in profile and frontal views. If the rest of the face looks good with the nose covered up, then it's highly likely the nose is the AESTHETIC CULPRIT where it competes with appreciation of the attractiveness of the REST of the face.
Similar diagnostic can also be used for people who want 'cheek bones like a model'. Take a photo of the front face. BLACK OUT only the CHEEK bone area and see if the REST of the face is very close to looking like the model. Likewise with jaw.
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Well, if the REST OF THE face is a big part of the problem and if the person thinks the whole problem is just the nose, a rhino won't give much satisfaction either to the possessor of the face or the onlookers of it because the decision to get it resolved to not noticing the rest of the face was mostly the problem. They might just look in the mirror after getting a rhino, for example after a request was fulfilled by a PS to give the same/similar nose as a celeb, and find in no way to they look like the celeb. Ultimately the expectation was if they got a PART of the face that looked like 'what a celeb has', they should 'therefore' look like the celeb. It's a FALSE expectation given the WHOLE of the celeb (or model's) face, the whole attractiveness of it is NOT solely attributable to ONE part; the nose. But rather the balance of the rest of their face where the nose they have fits into the whole GESTALT balance.
A good 'do it yourself' diagnostic to tell if the nose is the MAJOR problem to the face as in DETRACTS from the rest of the face is to simply COVER the nose with your hand in profile and frontal views. If the rest of the face looks good with the nose covered up, then it's highly likely the nose is the AESTHETIC CULPRIT where it competes with appreciation of the attractiveness of the REST of the face.
Similar diagnostic can also be used for people who want 'cheek bones like a model'. Take a photo of the front face. BLACK OUT only the CHEEK bone area and see if the REST of the face is very close to looking like the model. Likewise with jaw.
I guess most people also probably do the same with mandibles. Don't they?
Yeah I see what you mean, though. Sadly my nose isn't the only problem haha.
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I guess most people also probably do the same with mandibles. Don't they?
Yeah I see what you mean, though. Sadly my nose isn't the only problem haha.
Quite often they do. Tons of dummies on RS putting up photos of models and asking if they can have a jaw like that and being clueless about their not having anything near the rest of the model's face. Then come the doctors who 'answer' with out telling them like it is. I'll work on an example later down the line.
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Social media means more photos of your face online. Alas, the nose has a huge (pardon the pun) effect on photogenicity. Smaller noses photograph better. The trouble is that there is a limit to how much smaller the nose can be. Often the nose is too long and there is no way of changing that, yet surgeons still operate... and re-operate... and re-operate. Width is more controllable, but even this has limits. I wish I could find that photo of 3 identical triplets I once saw... which as often is the case, still had significant difference. In their case, it was the nose - from average, to big, to big and bulbous. The difference was mainly in the width and fleshiness. The brother with the biggest nose looked the worst by far, yet I don't see how his nose could have been significantly narrowed. Furthermore, the face is all about proportions. Taking away something in one dimension makes the other dimension look bigger. For example, all surgeons love to take down dorsal humps, because it's easy. But if the nose is long to begin with, it will look even longer after the dorsal hump is gone. Ditto if a big long nose is narrowed - it will look longer. Furthermore, proper rhinoplasty is not about simple destruction and removal. It's actually reconstruction - good surgeons will use a lot of cartilage grafts to reshape the nostrils, the tip. I've heard that while this stuff looks alright in photos, IRL those grafts look glistening and fake.
tldr; just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should be done. Most rhinoplasties are unnecessary and in the case of someone with a long nose - can be downright detrimental.
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Quite often they do. Tons of dummies on RS putting up photos of models and asking if they can have a jaw like that and being clueless about their not having anything near the rest of the model's face. Then come the doctors who 'answer' with out telling them like it is. I'll work on an example later down the line.
Ugh, RealSelf. I despise that site. Lots of surgeons giving bulls**t lies.
I've also seen doctors on that site give boilerplate advice of chin + rhino when they have clearly recessed jaws and where neither a chin job nor a rhino would help. Obviously they want to make money since maybe its what they do specifically.
Its just another step up from the nonsense gym + haircut + shower (yes, people assume that hygiene is an issue as disrespectful as it sounds) advice.
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Social media means more photos of your face online. Alas, the nose has a huge (pardon the pun) effect on photogenicity. Smaller noses photograph better. The trouble is that there is a limit to how much smaller the nose can be. Often the nose is too long and there is no way of changing that, yet surgeons still operate... and re-operate... and re-operate. Width is more controllable, but even this has limits. I wish I could find that photo of 3 identical triplets I once saw... which as often is the case, still had significant difference. In their case, it was the nose - from average, to big, to big and bulbous. The difference was mainly in the width and fleshiness. The brother with the biggest nose looked the worst by far, yet I don't see how his nose could have been significantly narrowed. Furthermore, the face is all about proportions. Taking away something in one dimension makes the other dimension look bigger. For example, all surgeons love to take down dorsal humps, because it's easy. But if the nose is long to begin with, it will look even longer after the dorsal hump is gone. Ditto if a big long nose is narrowed - it will look longer. Furthermore, proper rhinoplasty is not about simple destruction and removal. It's actually reconstruction - good surgeons will use a lot of cartilage grafts to reshape the nostrils, the tip. I've heard that while this stuff looks alright in photos, IRL those grafts look glistening and fake.
tldr; just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should be done. Most rhinoplasties are unnecessary and in the case of someone with a long nose - can be downright detrimental.
I heard rhino is the single most complex procedure in the face.
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Think this will be my last time 'promoting' this guy's channel, but I think about all his video's go into this thread topic in a very simple but holistic & well illustrated way. I particularly like how he shows the differences in weak vs masculine skull features with actual/virtual skull models.
For example, but there's another one called what makes a face attractive - part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxwKibwHYEw
I totally noticed the large neurocranium silhouette on myself, with relatively small "splanchocranimum", before ever watching this video, but wasn't sure how it mattered to my overall face aesthetic. Funny coincidence this video just validated my own insecurities with my entire skull shape, albeit I'm sure there are some exceptions to this skull shape 'rule'.
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Think this will be my last time 'promoting' this guy's channel, but I think about all his video's go into this thread topic in a very simple but holistic & well illustrated way. I particularly like how he shows the differences in weak vs masculine skull features with actual/virtual skull models.
For example, but there's another one called what makes a face attractive - part 1:
I totally noticed the large neurocranium silhouette on myself, with relatively small "splanchocranimum", before ever watching this video, but wasn't sure how it mattered to my overall face aesthetic. Funny coincidence this video just validated my own insecurities with my entire skull shape, albeit I'm sure there are some exceptions to this skull shape 'rule'.
Holy crap, I was just watching that video right now haha!
Yeah mine is kinda a mix between both.
Man, I wish we can one day fix all of this, :(((
Also what is wrong with his videos? He seems to be pretty informed and no-bs. This is the first time I saw a youtuber explain these things to the mainstream.
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Think this will be my last time 'promoting' this guy's channel, but I think about all his video's go into this thread topic in a very simple but holistic & well illustrated way. I particularly like how he shows the differences in weak vs masculine skull features with actual/virtual skull models.
For example, but there's another one called what makes a face attractive - part 1:
I totally noticed the large neurocranium silhouette on myself, with relatively small "splanchocranimum", before ever watching this video, but wasn't sure how it mattered to my overall face aesthetic. Funny coincidence this video just validated my own insecurities with my entire skull shape, albeit I'm sure there are some exceptions to this skull shape 'rule'.
Why the f**k are you posting Gandy fapper videos that make people feel bad about things they can't change about aspects of their structure that deviate from male models and neanderthal lunks. Try posting something intelligent. Jesus Christ. Try the Serenity prayer.
(http://www.12steps.nz/images/AA_Serenity_Prayer.gif)
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Had to google gandy fappers. Feel free to delete my post then, or at least the part where I b*tch about the back skull shape. I'm not trying to promote mopefests about s**t that can't be changed. I found it insightful though to get this kind of visual break down. It's pretty much encapsulating what was already stated here. Of course we're not transforming into models with today's tech, but thought this answers the mail for this thread.
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Had to google gandy fappers. Feel free to delete my post then. I'm not trying to promote mopefests about s**t that can't be changed.
Probably not in Google as I coined the term. A lookism type member who FAPS to male model photos. Usually mental masturbation about what models have that they (and 99% of the rest of the population) don't.
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Why the f**k are you posting Gandy fapper videos that make people feel bad about things they can't change about aspects of their structure that deviate from male models and neanderthal lunks. Try posting something intelligent. Jesus Christ. Try the Serenity prayer.
(http://www.12steps.nz/images/AA_Serenity_Prayer.gif)
Its not like we can change anything anyways in this day and age except move around jaws forwards and backwards.
Its good to learn and at least have reference to this knowledge.
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I landed on a lookism page on my first try googling it actually hah. They worship gandy, etc.. Really those videos I linked are only educational if the viewer already somewhat understands what's possible today. The editor didn't do a great job keeping his morphs etc. realistic at all. But one can make changes in the right direction if they understand the common denominator beauty norms & the limitations of different treatments, right?
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Its not like we can change anything anyways in this day and age except move around jaws forwards and backwards.
Its good to learn and at least have reference to this knowledge.
I can EXPORT you to Lookism if you like where you'll be in good company of the gandy fapper , incel and 'i'm so ugly and all is futile' crowd.
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I can EXPORT you to Lookism if you like where you'll be in good company of the gandy fapper , incel and 'i'm so ugly and all is futile' crowd.
Not a gandy fapper though. I just wished I looked normal let alone 1/5th of what he looks. And I’m not an all is futile until I see how things go when I’m like 32. Pessimistic but hopeful.
That site is usually the first site that comes up when aesthetics discussion is brought up even before this one lol.
In all honesty I don’t think most users there are actually decently looking but just mental to be gandy fappers. Most are actually ugly with literal potato shaped skulls.
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I landed on a lookism page on my first try googling it actually hah. They worship gandy, etc.. Really those videos I linked are only educational if the viewer already somewhat understands what's possible today. The editor didn't do a great job keeping his morphs etc. realistic at all. But one can make changes in the right direction if they understand the common denominator beauty norms & the limitations of different treatments, right?
They don’t understand what women actually want though. Anyways, those morphs didn’t consider medical realism. They only looked at trying to match the golden ratio and what not.