The limits of surgery

[PloskoPlus]

Just realised that the best that max fac can do is take away the deformity.

So:

ugly + deformed + surgery -> just ugly
beautiful + deformed + surgery -> beautiful

Case in point:
http://drrichardjoseph.com/photos/113.php

"Beauty is created in the womb, not on the operating table" - kizarq

The key to happiness is to have low expectations.

[Modigliani]

Wise words indeed 

[PloskoPlus]

Wise words indeed 

Yeah, now my expectation is to look no worse.

[Modigliani]

Yeah, now my expectation is to look no worse.

LOL, I'd settle for that at this point. I think you can probably allow yourself to be a little more optimistic than that, PP 

[PloskoPlus]

LOL, I'd settle for that at this point. I think you can probably allow yourself to be a little more optimistic than that, PP 

Well, the 6mm LeForte 1 advancement kind of worries me.  I already have a negative profile.  The fat loss hollowed out my cheeks and the mouth looks almost protrusive as it is from some angles (yet the maxilla is recessed - weak smile, no gum show... go figure).  Then I read something like this:

http://www.jawsurgeryblog.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12303#p42381

And it won't fix the orbital rim weakness, possibly make it more obvious, if anything.  Then all the funky stuff that happens to the nose.  Class IIs have it so easy!

[Gregor Samsa]

Having no obvious flaws will go a long way to make a person attractive. Once you've reached that point then you can raise yourself above most of the male population simply by dressing well and taking care of your body. This becomes especially true as you age.

[Modigliani]

Well, the 6mm LeForte 1 advancement kind of worries me.  I already have a negative profile.  The fat loss hollowed out my cheeks and the mouth looks almost protrusive as it is from some angles (yet the maxilla is recessed - weak smile, no gum show... go figure).  Then I read something like this:

http://www.jawsurgeryblog.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12303#p42381

And it won't fix the orbital rim weakness, possibly make it more obvious, if anything.  Then all the funky stuff that happens to the nose.  Class IIs have it so easy!

I can understand why you're concerned, too much upper jaw advancement can wreak all sorts of havoc on the features themselves as well as surrounding soft tissue and the proportions of the rest of the face. On the other hand it if it's done right it can do wonders, such a fine line with it.

Have you consulted with a few different surgeons? While their opinions can vary wildly, if they're all proposing similar movements, there or thereabouts, then it's probably right for you.

[Gregor Samsa]

I remember reading about a Korean man that sued his wife when the children came out ugly because she had apparently transformed herself to a real beauty with plastic surgery. Jaw surgery alone will probably not make you look good unless you already have good features but if combined with other procedures then it can really transform a person.

[overbiter]

Having no obvious flaws will go a long way to make a person attractive. Once you've reached that point then you can raise yourself above most of the male population simply by dressing well and taking care of your body. This becomes especially true as you age.

True, an ugly person with a jaw deformity is much uglier than someone who just has bad features. Only someone with a serious jaw deformity can really appreciate this. Being an ugly person with a class I jaw is infinitely better than being a weirdo with a messed up jaw and an ugly face.

[PloskoPlus]

I remember reading about a Korean man that sued his wife when the children came out ugly because she had apparently transformed herself to a real beauty with plastic surgery. Jaw surgery alone will probably not make you look good unless you already have good features but if combined with other procedures then it can really transform a person.

Ate you sure that story is not an urban myth?

[PloskoPlus]

I can understand why you're concerned, too much upper jaw advancement can wreak all sorts of havoc on the features themselves as well as surrounding soft tissue and the proportions of the rest of the face. On the other hand it if it's done right it can do wonders, such a fine line with it.

Have you consulted with a few different surgeons? While their opinions can vary wildly, if they're all proposing similar movements, there or thereabouts, then it's probably right for you.

Yeah, I know, lefort 1 is probably the most transformative common procedure in existence.  The first surgeon I saw said 6 mm advancement of the upper, 4 mm retraction of the lower.  He's considered a top surgeon around here.  The next one said wtf, you don't have that much of an under bite. 6mm upper only.  I really liked him, but his or tho was lukewarm "you are gonna spend all that money to look different, but not better." My current surgeon said the same as the second one, but apparently he also trained him, so maybe in reality I have only two opinions to go by.   My current surgeon is considered the best in town (yet he was also the cheapest of the lot).  I'll be seeing another surgeon tomorrow, and another one in a couple of weeks.

Regarding aesthetics, the second surgeon said you'll look like yourself had you developed normally. People will still recognize you as you. My current surgeon was evasive regarding "will I look better, or just different". But he seems to be the most attuned to aesthetics of the lot.  Or maybe it's because he was the last one I saw, so I had more questions to ask.  What worries me is that I only saw a single before and after from his ortho.  I saw him recently and he didn't want to show me any due to patient confidentiality.

[Modigliani]

Regarding aesthetics, the second surgeon said you'll look like yourself had you developed normally. People will still recognize you as you.

I like that answer a lot, it's pretty much what I wanted from surgery - to look like I should have looked without distorting the decent features that I did have.

Glad you're getting some more opinions, will be interesting to hear what they come up with. You in the US? I only ask because I feel like I've seen your look a lot more in the UK, the hair and everything...nfact there's a woman who lives directly opposite me that has a really similar jaw set up to you...it's definitely more becoming on a man 

[Gregor Samsa]

Ate you sure that story is not an urban myth?

The story has been reported by several respected news sources:
http://www.examiner.com/article/man-sues-ex-wife-over-ugly-children-and-wins-daughter-s-looks-horrified-him

This news site claims it's false though: http://www.abc15.com/news/local-news/water-cooler/man-sues-over-ugly-baby-jian-feng-chinese-man-sues-wife-after-she-has-extremely-ugly-baby-girl1384191149764

[nrelax11]

I like that answer a lot, it's pretty much what I wanted from surgery - to look like I should have looked without distorting the decent features that I did have.

This is basically all I want out of surgery too. I grew up having normal facial growth, and then somewhere along the way, things went south.  I think its when I hit puberty,  I started slowly getting verticle growth and it really sped up around 20 years old. My gummy smile kind of came out of nowhere. It seemed my maxilla just suddenly grew down over the course of a few years

[Tiny]

I remember reading about a Korean man that sued his wife when the children came out ugly because she had apparently transformed herself to a real beauty with plastic surgery. Jaw surgery alone will probably not make you look good unless you already have good features but if combined with other procedures then it can really transform a person.

I think this is a bit silly anyway, because features can skip a generation or two.  I look absolutely nothing like my mother - not in face, figure or colouring

I think surgery (plus the right makeup) can make a significant difference.  You can't make ugly beautiful but I think you can go from ugly to OK looking, and from attractive to pretty, and from pretty to beautiful.  I did a little filler, a touch of botox, rhinoplasty (post accident but that's a moot point) and chin lipo and honestly...well as Lazlo said in my thread, it took me from about a 5 to about a 7.
 Most surgeons do a lot more 'anti aging' surgeries than 'beautification' surgeries.  In fact many are actually somewhat reluctant to do anything other than fillers, rhinos and chin implants if it's purely cosmetic and not anti-aging.

Posko, from what I've read it does seem that the 'class 3' facial set up doesn't really show itself until the late teens, especially in guys.  I'd be cautious about reducing the chin/lower jaw too much because a) you're a guy and b) it's balancing your nose.