Author Topic: Opinions on wilckodontics  (Read 4659 times)

BlueShark7

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Opinions on wilckodontics
« on: January 01, 2016, 05:33:51 PM »
Hi everyone, firstly sorry if this is in the wrong category. Does anyone here have experience with or knowledge about wilckodontics?

My issue is I had an 11mm overbite that was treated with camouflage orthodontics. Since then I have anterior crowding of my mandible, tmj issues and still a skeletal discrepancy of around 11mm. In order to get mandibular advancement I would need extractions as there is nowhere to go to decompensate and recreate overjet (currently 1mm, overbite 3mm). I don't want extractions and ccw wouldn't be suitable in my case as I have a low mandibular plane angle and maxilla is fine.

Would wilckodontics be able to widen mandibular arch and create space for decompensation without extractions? My lower arch is narrow if I am correct.

Thanks in advance.

PloskoPlus

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2016, 05:36:12 PM »
Hi everyone, firstly sorry if this is in the wrong category. Does anyone here have experience with or knowledge about wilckodontics?

My issue is I had an 11mm overbite that was treated with camouflage orthodontics. Since then I have anterior crowding of my mandible, tmj issues and still a skeletal discrepancy of around 11mm. In order to get mandibular advancement I would need extractions as there is nowhere to go to decompensate and recreate overjet (currently 1mm, overbite 3mm). I don't want extractions and ccw wouldn't be suitable in my case as I have a low mandibular plane angle and maxilla is fine.

Would wilckodontics be able to widen mandibular arch and create space for decompensation without extractions? My lower arch is narrow if I am correct.

Thanks in advance.
One top surgeon I consulted with said it's not stable.  "Teeth don't like to be moved a great distance, you'll be in retention for the rest of your life to try to keep them in place".

BlueShark7

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2016, 05:47:47 PM »
One top surgeon I consulted with said it's not stable.  "Teeth don't like to be moved a great distance, you'll be in retention for the rest of your life to try to keep them in place".

Interesting, thank you. It's advertised as being able to move teeth in  3-6 months, I wonder if it would be anymore stable if the teeth were moved at a slower rate? There's not really many options to expand lower arch/ de compensate without extractions, is that true?

PloskoPlus

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2016, 06:25:37 PM »
Interesting, thank you. It's advertised as being able to move teeth in  3-6 months, I wonder if it would be anymore stable if the teeth were moved at a slower rate? There's not really many options to expand lower arch/ de compensate without extractions, is that true?
Total sub-apical osteotomy.  Same surgeon said the risk of permanent numbness is so high, that he doesn't do it anymore.  Another option is surgically assisted rapid mandibular expansion - split down the mandibular midline with a distractor.  He didn't like it either, but I don't remember why.  Maybe because it puts a lot of pressure on the condyles.  So for all practical reasons, expanding the top arch to mach the lower arch with SAPRE is the only expansion you can do realistically which is stable long term.  There is also 3-piece Le Fort I.

BlueShark7

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2016, 06:45:33 PM »
Total sub-apical osteotomy.  Same surgeon said the risk of permanent numbness is so high, that he doesn't do it anymore.  Another option is surgically assisted rapid mandibular expansion - split down the mandibular midline with a distractor.  He didn't like it either, but I don't remember why.  Maybe because it puts a lot of pressure on the condyles.  So for all practical reasons, expanding the top arch to mach the lower arch with SAPRE is the only expansion you can do realistically which is stable long term.  There is also 3-piece Le Fort I.

Thanks, yeah I had a feeling it wasn't so simple expanding the lower arch. It seems it's really extractions or bust when it comes to decompensation. Stability is obviously paramount and putting pressure on the condyles can never really be a good thing with the risk or condylar resorption and increased tmj symptoms.

PloskoPlus

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2016, 06:49:59 PM »
Thanks, yeah I had a feeling it wasn't so simple expanding the lower arch. It seems it's really extractions or bust when it comes to decompensation. Stability is obviously paramount and putting pressure on the condyles can never really be a good thing with the risk or condylar resorption and increased tmj symptoms.
Extracting the lower is not as bad as extracting the upper.  It allows for much bigger advancements of the lower.

needadvancement

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2016, 09:44:10 PM »
I had it done 7 months ago. It expands both arches significantly, adds a lot of bone mass on the alveolar bone which is great for your teeth and overall jaw health and aesthetically, and it even increased gum tissue around the teeth. About fast orthodontic movements being unstable, this is true for regular ortho work but the surgery you get for wilckodontics is designed for it. After the surgery the bone mass is soft and increasing. By the time your teeth are into new position it finally just about finishes consolidation. Key is that your bone and soft tissue has enough space and stability now so there's no relapse. Plus no extractions and only half a year+ in braces, Works on class 1 and 2 cases and severe crowding. If you need jaws moved for your health or looks you'll need BSSO of course.

terry947

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2016, 11:19:14 PM »
@needadvancment - do you have any detailed info regarding the mandibular arch? How much expansion did you get? Also did it reduce the binaxillary protraction look from the side view of your face? ( if that makes sense)

BlueShark7

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2016, 12:43:26 AM »
I had it done 7 months ago. It expands both arches significantly, adds a lot of bone mass on the alveolar bone which is great for your teeth and overall jaw health and aesthetically, and it even increased gum tissue around the teeth. About fast orthodontic movements being unstable, this is true for regular ortho work but the surgery you get for wilckodontics is designed for it. After the surgery the bone mass is soft and increasing. By the time your teeth are into new position it finally just about finishes consolidation. Key is that your bone and soft tissue has enough space and stability now so there's no relapse. Plus no extractions and only half a year+ in braces, Works on class 1 and 2 cases and severe crowding. If you need jaws moved for your health or looks you'll need BSSO of course.

Thanks for reply, out of curiosity did you get a bsso afterwards? And if you don't mind, which part of the world are you in?

needadvancement

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2016, 01:24:41 AM »
@ terry sorry I don't have all the info yet or maybe next week, and next month when last brackets on my upper arch are removed. I think they are still making my mouth look weird(protrusion from the brackets).

Thanks for reply, out of curiosity did you get a bsso afterwards? And if you don't mind, which part of the world are you in?

No I will get a sliding Genio soon and then I may be done. My problems aren't severe, but yours sound serious so I would advise you to meet up with a good maxillofacial surgeon. I'm in Europe and these jaw surgeries are usually covered by surgery. Are you in the US? Then you might have to pay out of your own pocket for everything including wilckodontics which is also very pricy.

BlueShark7

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2016, 02:44:01 AM »
@ terry sorry I don't have all the info yet or maybe next week, and next month when last brackets on my upper arch are removed. I think they are still making my mouth look weird(protrusion from the brackets).

No I will get a sliding Genio soon and then I may be done. My problems aren't severe, but yours sound serious so I would advise you to meet up with a good maxillofacial surgeon. I'm in Europe and these jaw surgeries are usually covered by surgery. Are you in the US? Then you might have to pay out of your own pocket for everything including wilckodontics which is also very pricy.

That's good that yours sounds like an easy fix after wicklodontics. My issues are a perfect example of the cascade of problems camouflage orthodontics can cause. I'm in Australia and there are a handful of orthodontists here that do it but I know I'm likely going to have to pay out of pocket. The trouble might be that essentially aesthetically by some miracle jaw discrepancy isn't that obvious, probably due to chin soft tissue/ prominence etc.

molestrip

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2016, 12:27:09 AM »
I never understood the stability argument. The teeth will be stable no matter where they are in the bone so long as they're held there for a few months, giving the bone time to settle on the new tooth position. The real issue is that once retention is removed, the forces around the tooth may move it back. However, that's not an issue if you're fixing a force balance issue by moving teeth into the right position. OTOH, I had braces as a teen and wore my hawley and night guard every night since and only two decades later my teeth are messed up again.

I'm looking into it for myself but mostly only because my case seems uniquely tailored for it. I'm a borderline case for a 3-piece. I only need a few mm of expansion on the upper arch and my front segment can be leveled with a little tipping. My concern is that afterwards I won't have much bone margin which means that I may develop periodontal problems and root blunting, both which PAOO seems to address. Otherwise, I would say that the main benefit is reduced risk of root resorption, especially for longer cases. However, given that the RAP exists after jaw surgery anyway I would say it's only useful pre-op and the same benefit could be achieved with Propel, avoiding the surgery. As for stability, to my knowledge that's still unknown. There are no long term studies on this stuff.

As for expanding the arches, I don't buy the argument others here have about it causing joint problems. However, teeth are impossible to replace so you really don't want to lose them. I would give PAOO a shot to avoid extractions. Osteotomies are possible to lengthen or widen the arches but not commonly done because it means an extra surgery and more complicated orthodontics. Orthodontists like to create plans up front in an hour or two then put you into the pipeline. Individual cases requiring babysitting cost them money and those that have time for it, don't have experience to do it so it has to be someone with a passion for complicated stuff.

I'm largely unimpressed by orthodontists so far, I don't know what these guys learn in school but they seem to cause a lot of problems in this world and lack fundamental understanding of a lot of topics like facial development, orthognathic surgery, periodontal problems, etc Pretty much all the topics orthodontists should know.

needadvancement

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2016, 08:41:02 AM »
Well corticotomies have been around for a long time and studies have shown that they are safe and life-lasting. They tweaked it a bit to create Wilckodontics so although we don't have 50+ year examples yet, all logics say that it's a far more effective and stable treatment than conventional orthodontics.

molestrip

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2016, 08:11:21 AM »
One question I have is whether wilcko is notably better than Propel, if you just want faster movements but not extra bone mass. One thing I don't understand is how remodeling moves the cortical bone outwards. Any thoughts on that? Bone is not homogeneous.

notrain

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Re: Opinions on wilckodontics
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2016, 01:36:46 PM »
My issues are a perfect example of the cascade of problems camouflage orthodontics can cause.

FWIW had you not had your compensation ortho, your treatment plan would be exactly the same. The mandibular arch would not be large enough to accomodate all teeth in their correct inclination, regardless of camouflage ortho or not camou ortho.

I had your exact treatment plan carried out and I'm like 5 months post op now. You won't notice the two missing premolars after surgery at all, so the only issue is if you can tolerate the 12-15months decomp ortho it takes to close the gaps and create the overjet.