Beady small eyes.

[beyondconfusedtbh]

In the latter study:

1) 95 patients total
2) 72 of these patients were less than 8 years old

3) 23 patients were in the older age group (9-27 yrs)
4) The average age of this group was 16.7

5) There were two mortalities, one being a 20 yr old woman

Now we have to assume a few things from what we know. I only skimmed through the study so someone feel free to correct me.

Using more common knowledge & points (1) & (2) we can assume that most patients that undergo BO are young children, specifically < 8 years old.

So then we can assume that the ages in the older group follows a normal binomial distribution with positive skew with most of the ages being less than the mean of 16.7 years.

Now realise that there were 95 BO's performed since 1971. 23 of these had patients older than 8. Most likely, less than half of these would be >17. Lets just be generous and say that leaves us with 6/7 adult patients. One of these patients DIED.

Now theres A LOT wrong with the statistical inference I displayed here (anyone with a background in stats kindly save me the lecture) & perhaps I'm scaremongering but honestly the point is there's probably a REASON this isn't commonly done among adults for aesthetic reasons.

If you want to educate yourself & in doing so you discover that there isn't & that it's just people being scared or something then good for you! But otherwise be careful.

We can't fix EVERYTHING that we'd like to fix. Be realistic & focus your efforts into fixing what you can, whether thats concerns aesthetics or your mental wellbeing.

[CCW]

What kind of extractions do you mean? teeth?

He means don't get teeth extracted to camouflage a skeletal deformity. Extractions are fine and sometimes necessary for surgical cases.

[kavan]

Oh yeah doctor's can totally ask for non-disclosure agreements. Also, I don't think there's anything unethical about this.

From what I've learned the docs who can do this say the risks are superminimal. I know Sinn says there is very little risk. So there you go.

A doctor requiring a GAG order is a red flag for highly skewed disproportionate information/feedback. In the case of reviews, the poor ethics come in when doctors use them to selectively preclude patients from mentioning an unfavorable result. That, in turns skews the reviews to mostly or only positive reviews, in which case available patient feedback on the procedure is disproportionate and misleading to other potential patients.

That's WHY it should be determined whether or not Wolfe would require a gag order for this.

Did Sinn also tell you there were minimal risks to the buccal fat extraction he did for you?
Rhetorical question because 'risk' for the patient even with a successful surgery is not liking the outcome and the costs associated with an aesthetic outcome they are dissatisfied with.

As to the OP, the surgery you are suggesting he pursue, even if successful (and god knows the costs) would just make his 'small beady eyes' a few mms further apart. It will not relieve him of the smallness of them. So even if little 'medical risk' with the doctors you mention, there still exists the risk of aesthetic dissatisfaction.

[beyondconfusedtbh]

As to the OP, the surgery you are suggesting he pursue, even if successful (and god knows the costs) would just make his 'small beady eyes' a few mms further apart. It will not relieve him of the smallness of them. So even if little 'medical risk' with the doctors you mention, there still exists the risk of aesthetic dissatisfaction.

Box osteotomy is not the solution. According to users on this forum though there is a solution. Figure out what makes a male eye aesthetically pleasing and search the appropriate terms.

/thread

[kavan]

Just contact the surgeon(s) mentioned. Most likely they'll say no to performing a box osteotomy.

If they say yes & they make you sign a non-disclosure agreement then think about what the implications are. Do you trust someone who doesn't trust themselves?

If they don't make you sign a non-disclosure agreement (& provided you've read the appropriate scientific literature & perhaps take some initiative to ask REAL surgeons with experience about the risks, complications etc) then go from there. It's not like you'll be able to afford it straight off the bat anyway.

I know nothing about the matter but BE CAREFUL. I'm only basing this off of how the surgery looks & the areas in question, but this doesn't seem like something that should be taken lightly. I'd advise against it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154976/

https://deschamps-braly.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Hypertelorism_Correction___What_Happens_with.28.pdf

See for yourself.

Thanx for the information you provided. I do think that the OP if he consults should find out IF he would have to sign a gag order. Even if he doesn't and can the surgery with said doctor, he still would be left with what he describes as; 'beady small eyes'. They will just be further apart. Then will come the need to also make them horizontally WIDER as to increase the distance between inner to outer eye (increase APERTURE of eye)  which to the best of my knowledge is a pot shot pursuit. In fact if you look at the doctor answers on RealSelf, a lot of doctors avoid telling the patient that can't be done. Instead, they get around the direct question and give suggestions as to the surgeries they CAN do.

Here's a link to RS where the person asks a very DIRECT question as to if the aperture can be made horizontally wider. Note that most of the docs circumvent the question, asking for photos where, in fact, no photos are needed to ask about a surgery  that can make the apertures horizontally wider or they just don't confirm surgeries to make the eyes horizontally wider. Just one of them tells the patient she might be unhappy with it. Although a cantho procedure could help SLIGHTLY, for the most part it is to uptilt the outer corner. It is most certainly not a thing for someone having in the back of their mind they want 'hunter eyes' those very horizontally long and vertically narrow eyes male models have.

Anyway, I think the OP should FIRST consult with an occuplastic surgeon (and he should give the NAME just in case it's an unethical one I know of) to establish IF he can get a surgery to make eyes HORIZONTALLY wider that is NOT a cantho aimed at just uptilting them, lest he find out the hard way after a procedure to increase the eye to eye distance just leaves him with the same small eyes just set further apart.

[kavan]

Box osteotomy is not the solution. According to users on this forum though there is a solution. Figure out what makes a male eye aesthetically pleasing and search the appropriate terms.

/thread

What makes the male eye aesthetically pleasing is basically what male models have going on to the eyes which is a horizontally WIDE aperture; horizontally 'long' palpebral fissure . Basically what they call 'hunter eyes' and BETWEEN them the width of 'one eye'. Both are factors.  If he gets the distance between both eyes made wider, they could not make it much wider than his horizontally NARROW width of 'ONE eye' and highly unlikely to have surgery to significantly increase the 'one eye' width. (palpebral fissure)

[beyondconfusedtbh]

What makes the male eye aesthetically pleasing is basically what male models have going on to the eyes which is a horizontally WIDE aperture; horizontally 'long' palpebral fissure . Basically what they call 'hunter eyes' and BETWEEN them the width of 'one eye'. Both are factors.  If he gets the distance between both eyes made wider, they could not make it much wider than his horizontally NARROW width of 'ONE eye' and highly unlikely to have surgery to significantly increase the 'one eye' width. (palpebral fissure)

Exactly. I don’t want to mislead OP but I’m sure you’re aware of one thread on the matter. All aspects have been discussed however until talking to the surgeon in question I’d call it speculative at best.

A final note to OP, the medial canthus plays an important role in the perceived width of the eye. Shape and horizontal length of it matter. Unfortunately there’s nothing that can be done to address it. Just saying.

[Austinou88]

So what do you think my option is?
Going to see Dr. Wolfe, or see someone like Dr. Taban who performs a lot of different eyes surgerys's like Canthoplastys?

Either one I could do.

[kavan]

You would have to see both and tell both about both surgeries you are wanting to establish which one is to be done first. Box osteo would increase  distance between the eyes but you still would have what you describe as 'beady small eyes' which would just be further apart from each other. Lets assume Wolfe would do a box osteo. (no idea but take the assumption for the logic that follows). So, you would want to find out FIRST whether the 'eye guy' could actually make your eyes horizontally wider and significantly so. Cantho won't yield horizontally wider eyes. But they will try to 'sell' it. It might not be done first but it needs to be cross referenced first if you are to get a box osteo to separate distance between eyes and will LATER need to ALSO make them horizontally wider since that is a problem in ADDITION to them being close set. You don't want to find out LATER after you get box osteo that all it does is make your small eyes further apart yet can't be complimented with a surgery that increases the WIDTH of the eye (palprebral fissure) significantly so. Based on my searches on Real Self, a lot of doctors AVOID answering the 'small eye' question directly and will just suggest other things they can do (be employed by). Like they avoid telling you outright that the palprebal fissure 'length' (width of the eye aperture) can't be significantly widened. Neither of these surgeries INDIVIDUALLY will give you what you want. It would take BOTH.

Again, if we assume the box osteo could be done, you would also want to find out if a surgery for significant width to the eye could be done and you would want to find that out BEFORE you invest in box osteo even if you are to get the direct eye surgery after it. I have NO reason to believe that 'hunter eyes' or anything close to that can be done even to people who's 'beady small eyes' (your description not mine) are naturally set further apart.

[PloskoPlus]

Kavan is correct on every point. Eyes cannot be made horizontally wider. They can be made to look wider by making them vertically narrower, but that's only worth it for those with big prominent eyes. Not your case.

[Bobbit]

From what I've seen Dr. Wolfe does not issue gag orders or keep it secret that he does any of these procedures.

From someone who had a consult with him I have heard he said: "I don't need a neurosurgeon, neurosurgeons come to me for advice. I've done this procedure many, many times and the risks are very low."

So I'm just saying, he's a guy who does it and he doesn't use a neurosurgeon which would make the cost much more affordable I thnk.
     . . .
 

Laz,  I do  not think you understand what the underlying issue really is.  It is a hospital risk mitigation requirement. 

Unless Dr. Wolf does those procedures in his own office surgery facility (which is almost inconceivable - - for that type of surgery, with the potential for that much blood loss)  I am pretty sure that the hospital in which he does those procedures will require, as a matter of policy and credentialing, that a neurosurgeon be present when the brain is exposed by another surgeon who is not a neurosurgeon. 

I know a neurosurgeon who attends those types of procedures.  He seldom has to actually do anything but be helpful and "be there" in case something that is within the "wheel house" of the neurosurgeon  arises during the surgery and that requires the immediate attention of the neurosurgeon.

 

[Lazlo]

Yeah honestly OP you're gonna need to see a few different people.

Reconsidering things I think probably see Taban (occuloplastic surgeon) first. And ask him about making eyes larger and more wide-set. He doesn't do the op but might know someone who does. of course you know wolfe will do it. but i don't think he can help with size of eyes which you also need to have made larger.

[kavan]

Oh forgot to add a link. This wasn't the link I wanted to add but they are all similar where the docs AVOID telling the patient like it is and just use/ DIVERT the question and 'answers' to it to NOT answer the question. Instead the look for things that they can do.

https://www.realself.com/question/new-york-ny-1-hunter-eyes-surgery#

Many links where the realself docs avoid giving the real answer which would be an admission they can't do what your asking them if can be done. All they do is divert focus on what they can do and they CAN'T do the 'hunter eye' look and they AVOID telling you that outright and instead devote themselves to other things they can do.

Stiensapir, is an 'eye guy'. He tells the patient he has upper lid ptosis with high eyebrows. So he looks for what he can do but avoids answering directly as to the hunter eyes the male model has which are function of his brow bone being forward and his internal orbit anatomy and NOT a direct function of the model squinting as he tells the patient. So, he doesn't tell the guy no way he will get the eyes he wants. Avoids telling why and just demeans his colleagues who 'don't understand what's going on. He doesn't either.

Next comes a  DOLT of a doctor (Benjamin Paul) tells the patient wanting hunter eyes that the models eyebrows are 'ptotic' or 'droopy' and the patient should try some botox. The models brows are NOT droopy. They are low due to his brow bone being forward and also other relationships going on within the orbit. Then he IDs the canthal tilt as a reason the model has 'hunter eyes'. NOT SO either. Because the model does NOT have an upward lateral canthus. He has a downward medial canthus. Something else they CAN'T do. So he suggests something he can do which canthopexy to uptilt the lateral corners.

The other doc, James Gordon is also a dummy. He too tells the patient the models brows are ptotic (droopy) which is WRONG for reasons cited above.


Point I'm making is this is one of the BIGGEST AVOIDANCE questions out there, even with a lot of eye guys. Chances they will advise you in terms of employment opportunities for themselves and avoid direct answer to question (which is NO) that they can't give anything close to hunter eyes or make small eyes much wider. They will just find and suggest something else for them to do.

Thanx for the information you provided. I do think that the OP if he consults should find out IF he would have to sign a gag order. Even if he doesn't and can the surgery with said doctor, he still would be left with what he describes as; 'beady small eyes'. They will just be further apart. Then will come the need to also make them horizontally WIDER as to increase the distance between inner to outer eye (increase APERTURE of eye)  which to the best of my knowledge is a pot shot pursuit. In fact if you look at the doctor answers on RealSelf, a lot of doctors avoid telling the patient that can't be done. Instead, they get around the direct question and give suggestions as to the surgeries they CAN do.

Here's a link to RS where the person asks a very DIRECT question as to if the aperture can be made horizontally wider. Note that most of the docs circumvent the question, asking for photos where, in fact, no photos are needed to ask about a surgery  that can make the apertures horizontally wider or they just don't confirm surgeries to make the eyes horizontally wider. Just one of them tells the patient she might be unhappy with it. Although a cantho procedure could help SLIGHTLY, for the most part it is to uptilt the outer corner. It is most certainly not a thing for someone having in the back of their mind they want 'hunter eyes' those very horizontally long and vertically narrow eyes male models have.

Anyway, I think the OP should FIRST consult with an occuplastic surgeon (and he should give the NAME just in case it's an unethical one I know of) to establish IF he can get a surgery to make eyes HORIZONTALLY wider that is NOT a cantho aimed at just uptilting them, lest he find out the hard way after a procedure to increase the eye to eye distance just leaves him with the same small eyes just set further apart.

[Lazlo]

What kind of extractions do you mean? teeth?

no penis

[Austinou88]

So where do you think would be good to start kavan?