The CAUSE of underdeveloped jaws

[GJ]

No hope for males with recessed jaws?

There's definite hope.
I date attractive women, and I've had a recessed jaw my entire life.
Some find it attractive, which is how the gene continues on.

Agree there are some environmental factors that could be in play, but disagree those are the primary causes.
Phenotype = Genotype + Environment

[PloskoPlus]

Hmm, interesting thought.

The eyes are the most important part of the face.

[ForeverAloneDude]

A person can still be good looking with a recessed jaw.

What people keep forgetting is that it's the SHAPE of their bones that's a problem.

[ForeverAloneDude]

Hmm, interesting thought.

Yeah people overlook the fact that it's the SHAPE of the bones that matter.

[Dogmatix]

The eyes are the most important part of the face.

Seeing is often underestimated compared to having balanced jaws.

On a serious note, someone told me that the impression of a face starts from the bottom and that you work your way up, meaning chin, before cheekbones etc, but you disagree?

[ForeverAloneDude]

Seeing is often underestimated compared to having balanced jaws.

On a serious note, someone told me that the impression of a face starts from the bottom and that you work your way up, meaning chin, before cheekbones etc, but you disagree?

Where is your source for that? If anything I see bad lower thirds being made up for by having an award winning eye area (pretty boy types) while I've always seen people with good lower thirds but terrible eye areas made fun of (Think Marko Jarić and how people mocked Lima for being with him).

[ODog]

Their parents ate the same-stuff everyone else parents ate for the most part. I use me as an example i look like a relative who was born in 1900 on a small farm in rural germany. He had same issue i had. Assymetrical face,recesed everything, small skull. He grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I didnt know him well but i doubt they even had processed foods in his small rural town. His parents lived on that farm same part of town all there lives. I wish the answer was as-simple as nutritiom it isnt.

Earl, I’ve read that post of yours. Very helpful observation. I look back to my own family with perfect wide and forward jaws and cheekbones In good harmony and they all grew up on farms. They just ate animals. No sweets. My grandfather wouldn’t even touch fried food when he came here and he had a robust skull, wide chin. But there is one relative in my family with a narrow face, but her jaws are forward at least and she has cheekbones at least. My father inherits that slightly narrow shape to the skull as a whole, but again his jaws are forward, square, square chin, and somewhat of midface projection... so he looks masculine enough. The relative narrowness/ smallness of the head IMO seemed the genetic part, but the proportions are still correct. I haven’t yet found anyone in my family line with recessed bones all around.

I, like you had, have recessed AND narrow everything - rims, both jaws, and cheekbones. Do you accept PMs I really want your advice about something.

[ODog]

Their parents ate the same-stuff everyone else parents ate for the most part. I use me as an example i look like a relative who was born in 1900 on a small farm in rural germany. He had same issue i had. Assymetrical face,recesed everything, small skull. He grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere. I didnt know him well but i doubt they even had processed foods in his small rural town. His parents lived on that farm same part of town all there lives. I wish the answer was as-simple as nutritiom it isnt.

Not necessarily my friend. Poor people who live on farms and have access to animal products are not malnourished. Poor people who do not and survive on breads, beans, jams, and anti-nutrient absorbing carbs, are.

[ODog]

It's genetics.

There are many malnourished people with perfect jaws.
A better question is why that genetic trait is allowed to propagate. My guess would be some males find recessed jaws submissive/cute/feminine. Then their male sons get that gene.

I’m not saying I’m right or your wrong as I’m only seeking the truth and an open to any logical hypothesis. But I want to reiterate to be clear, it doesn’t matter what the person himself or herself are growing up/ whether they were malnourished. It’s like foster kids who grew up in crappy half-way houses and ate cheese slices growing up ... but what did their family lineage eat is the real determining factor.

I believe it’s a Darwinian thing. When your ancestral lineage for multiple generations is right and clean, the germ cells that eventually conceive you outline a blueprint design of of your face and body right away, and what do these cells base their construction designs on, i mean your sex cells are BLIND - they have no idea what kind of nutritional material your environment will provide you, so a guesstimate is made based on generations of nutritional intake, so it’s decided that this environment will be good enough to support a robustly designed structure, and so the blueprint is set forth and unfolds from there. We don’t start as BLANK slates and grow or don’t grow according to the nutrition in on our own lifetime, that’s idiotic planning and risky andour genes are smart for that; they make calculated predictions I think.

[ODog]

I remember reading that people's jaws are getting smaller ever since the paleolithic. The average mandible was bigger 1000 years ago and even bigger 1000 years before that and so on.  Something to the effect of jaws being 50% smaller than 10,000 years ago.

Also apparently the general trend is for women to choose husbands with softer faces than 100 years ago.

You can blame the birth control pill for that. I wouldn’t place too much faith In That hypothesis.

[ForeverAloneDude]

There's definite hope.
I date attractive women, and I've had a recessed jaw my entire life.
Some find it attractive, which is how the gene continues on.

Agree there are some environmental factors that could be in play, but disagree those are the primary causes.
Phenotype = Genotype + Environment

Then that means that the rest of your features are perhaps ok. So the answer to the other guy's question is that is depends whether the rest of his features are good or bad.

Its not about some finding it particularly attractive. Its about women finding other features of yours being attractive enough to OVERLOOK the recessed jaw. Or maybe yours isn't super recessed.

[ForeverAloneDude]

I’m not saying I’m right or your wrong as I’m only seeking the truth and an open to any logical hypothesis. But I want to reiterate to be clear, it doesn’t matter what the person himself or herself are growing up/ whether they were malnourished. It’s like foster kids who grew up in crappy half-way houses and ate cheese slices growing up ... but what did their family lineage eat is the real determining factor.

I believe it’s a Darwinian thing. When your ancestral lineage for multiple generations is right and clean, the germ cells that eventually conceive you outline a blueprint design of of your face and body right away, and what do these cells base their construction designs on, i mean your sex cells are BLIND - they have no idea what kind of nutritional material your environment will provide you, so a guesstimate is made based on generations of nutritional intake, so it’s decided that this environment will be good enough to support a robustly designed structure, and so the blueprint is set forth and unfolds from there. We don’t start as BLANK slates and grow or don’t grow according to the nutrition in on our own lifetime, that’s idiotic planning and risky andour genes are smart for that; they make calculated predictions I think.

I read a study a while ago that when men are fat, something happens to their sperm which passes on genes that makes their children more predestined to overeating. I don't know if it applies in this context too.

[ODog]

I read a study a while ago that when men are fat, something happens to their sperm which passes on genes that makes their children more predestined to overeating. I don't know if it applies in this context too.

Yes it absolutely applies. Your sperm mutates with all kinds of toxins or environmental impacts. Why wouldn’t it. The human body is an engineered system. If you pour water on a electronic device, you destroy it. You drop your phone, you cause it to malfunction. You eat a crappy diet, every cell in your body including your reproductive cells get damaged over time.

Now, the diet thing will sound ridiculous if you DON’T accept that for the 250, 000 years of our evolutionary history, humans are mostly fatty meat, PERIOD. We were not sitting around in huts munching on kale leaves, starving our asses off. We wouldn’t have had the energy to survive let alone the robust health to reproduce. You see this a lot nowadays with long term vegans becoming sterile. The right there is proof that diet impacts your germ cells. Furthermore, there really isn’t any optimal nutritional food in itself. All that matters is what the species evolved to eat, and their physiology and genes adapted to that diet and EXPECT that diet. If you feed a species foods they weren’t designed to eat, they get sick and die. Vegetables are eternally healthy, right? Well, not for lions. Studies have shown that feeding lions a diet of vegetables basically makes them get sick and die. Lions are designed to eat zebras. Feed them broccoli, and the blind Genes in their bodies which are running the show (and keeping a sensitive ear to what kind of nutrition the environment is providing) they will eventually say “ok I don’t know what environment you’re in, but we don’t have the equipment to work with this s**t you’re eating. Let’s shut down this failed experiment. Enter: cancer.”

Deprive a baby lambs mother of Vitamin A ENTIRELY, it’s offspring is born WITHOUT EYES. Deprive it somewhat of Vitamin A, the offspring might have one eye, or half-formed eyes, or weakend eyes in some way. Your eyes need vitamin A. This is why I brought up the protein hypothesis. Your bones are made of proteins. If you don’t eat optimal protein, wouldn’t it make sense that you’d be born with “weak bone” structure ?

When you’re eating a crap diet, You can’t produce healthy robust children when you’re sick and dying. Now, there are degrees to “getting sick and dying.” A diet full of foods we didn’t have 250, 000 years ago are killing us slowly. They are mutating our germ cells, slightly, insidiously, over time. Cancer in the wild is way way rarer than in humans. But for this argument to make sense, you have to research the true optimal diet for humans, and I believe that is a meat and organ meat based diet. And then you have to realize that we have gotten away from this type of diet tremendously. Actually, we DEMONiZE the whole meat industry.

This is my story. Grandparents on both side are robust. Big and wide, wide square chins and square jaws, they were farm men in Europe. Ate the food they cultivated. Came to America during world war 2. Started eating the sweets and trans fats and processed  junk here. They had children who were slightly less robust but by far good enough... and then the next generation the problem has gotten worse. I would say most evidently in me. It’s not “genetics”. The recessed bones in my face are just one manifestation of general health problems I’ve suffered with my whole life. You can see traces of my genetic potential (I.e the true genetic phenotype of a person) but that has been distorted and not develop correctly. That to me is not genetic, it’s yours ancestors genes slowly sensing over generations the the nutritional intake is becoming vapid and degenerated and so it throws up the best design it can given its nutritional raw materials it Not only has at the moment in your parents’ bodies but that it PREDICTS will also be out there for you when you’re born. It’s like men who have high testosterone become totally dysfunctional when they’re get older and suffer from low test... they suffer more than men with lesser test to begin with, because their whole biological design was predicated and fueled on testosterone. Protein perhaps is the same thing ? If your parents’ Diets is not optimal in this area, why would your germ cells give you a robust bone structure when its incoming data shows that there won’t be enough protein out there to remineralize your bones throughout life. I could be wrong about this, but robust men tend to like their steaks. Maybe they need it. Less robust men can survive and apparently thrive on all kinds of twigs and shrubs, lol.
 
Humans are not supposed to not develop correctly. They are not supposed to end up with half-matured childlike bodies and/ or faces. In my mind that’s not genetic. That’s mutated germ cells that cause this before you were even conceived.

Why do cigarettes mutate germ cells ? Or antidepressants ? Or anabolic steroids ? I’ve noticed a pattern in steroid users having kids with autism and other developmental problems, Because they are all chemical insults the body is not DESIGNED to take in. And so they reek havoc.

Remember guys.. I am proposing this only as a HYPOTHESIS, I am not saying it is correct. I only simply believe it to be true given the information I have now, but that could change. Welcome to have my mind changed.

[ForeverAloneDude]

Yes it absolutely applies. Your sperm mutates with all kinds of toxins or environmental impacts. Why wouldn’t it. The human body is an engineered system. If you pour water on a electronic device, you destroy it. You drop your phone, you cause it to malfunction. You eat a crappy diet, every cell in your body including your reproductive cells get damaged over time.

Now, the diet thing will sound ridiculous if you DON’T accept that for the 250, 000 years of our evolutionary history, humans are mostly fatty meat, PERIOD. We were not sitting around in huts munching on kale leaves, starving our asses off. We wouldn’t have had the energy to survive let alone the robust health to reproduce. You see this a lot nowadays with long term vegans becoming sterile. The right there is proof that diet impacts your germ cells. Furthermore, there really isn’t any optimal nutritional food in itself. All that matters is what the species evolved to eat, and their physiology and genes adapted to that diet and EXPECT that diet. If you feed a species foods they weren’t designed to eat, they get sick and die. Vegetables are eternally healthy, right? Well, not for lions. Studies have shown that feeding lions a diet of vegetables basically makes them get sick and die. Lions are designed to eat zebras. Feed them broccoli, and the blind Genes in their bodies which are running the show (and keeping a sensitive ear to what kind of nutrition the environment is providing) they will eventually say “ok I don’t know what environment you’re in, but we don’t have the equipment to work with this s**t you’re eating. Let’s shut down this failed experiment. Enter: cancer.”

Deprive a baby lambs mother of Vitamin A ENTIRELY, it’s offspring is born WITHOUT EYES. Deprive it somewhat of Vitamin A, the offspring might have one eye, or half-formed eyes, or weakend eyes in some way. Your eyes need vitamin A. This is why I brought up the protein hypothesis. Your bones are made of proteins. If you don’t eat optimal protein, wouldn’t it make sense that you’d be born with “weak bone” structure ?

When you’re eating a crap diet, You can’t produce healthy robust children when you’re sick and dying. Now, there are degrees to “getting sick and dying.” A diet full of foods we didn’t have 250, 000 years ago are kissing us slowly. They are mutating our germ cells, slightly, insidiously, over time. Cancer in the wild is way way rarer than in humans. But for this argument to make sense, you have to research the true optimal diet for humans, and I believe that is a meat and organ meat based diet. And then you have to realize that we have gotten away from this type of diet tremendously. Actually, we DEMONiZE the whole meat industry.

This is my story. Grandparents on both side are robust. Big and wide, wide square chins and square jaws, they were farm men in Europe. Ate the food they cultivated. Came to America during world war 2. Started eating the sweets and trans fats and processed  junk here. They had children who were slightly less robust but by far good enough... and then the next generation the problem has gotten worse. I would say most evidently in me. It’s not “genetics”. The recessed bones in my face are just one manifestation of general health problems I’ve suffered with my whole life. You can see traces of my genetic potential (I.e the true genetic phenotype of a person) but that has been distorted and not develop correctly. That to me is not genetic, it’s yours ancestors genes slowly sensing over generations the the nutritional intake is becoming vapid and degenerated and so it throws up the best design it can given its nutritional raw materials it Not only has at the moment in your parents’ bodies but that it PREDICTS will also be out there for you when you’re born. It’s like men who have high testosterone become totally dysfunctional when they’re get older and suffer from low test... they suffer more than men with lesser test to begin with, because their whole biological design was predicated and fueled on testosterone. Protein perhaps is the same thing ? If your parents’ Diets is not optimal in this area, why would your germ cells give you a robust bone structure when its incoming data shows that there won’t be enough protein out there to remineralize your bones throughout life. I could be wrong about this, but robust men tend to like their steaks. Maybe they need it. Less robust men can survive and apparently thrive on all kinds of twigs and shrubs, lol.
 
Humans are not supposed to not develop correctly. They are not supposed to end up with half-matured childlike bodies and/ or faces. In my mind that’s not genetic. That’s mutated germ cells that cause this before you were even conceived.

Why do cigarettes mutate germ cells ? Or antidepressants ? Or anabolic steroids ? I’ve noticed a pattern in steroid users having kids with autism and other developmental problems, Because they are all chemical insults the body is not DESIGNED to take in. And so they reek havoc.

Remember guys.. I am proposing this only as a HYPOTHESIS, I am not saying it is correct. I only simply believe it to be true given the information I have now, but that could change. Welcome to have my mind changed.

Well your hypothesis has partial support doesn't it? With my point of fat dads etc. I wonder if it works with women too etc.

[PloskoPlus]

ODog,

What meat eating paradise did your ancestors come from?