it's been a while, aftermath DJS, genio

[kavan]

Self-reporting one's lived experience is ABSOLUTELY subject to bias and can very much be a 'mental' thing.  All of our experiences are filtered through our own state of mind.  If she was internally unhappy with her result, her perceptions of 'male interest' will be subject to that same pessimism.  The point is that she looks GOOD now, and members who have seen her before pics say she looks BETTER than before.

Agree. Also, there's another factor of attraction which is the 'available vs non available' vibe. A single woman, especially if she's 'looking' will have a vibe of availability where a happily married woman (or otherwise unavailable) won't.

[kavan]

She clearly has a recession in the upper middle part of the face. She experienced less attention from men. This is never something imagined, never a mental thing (despite people saying otherwise). It's her true life experience and should be taken seriously. She talks about her nose changing (becoming wider) after jaw surgery. This could have an impact on looks, even the slightest change (beauty is about millimeters).

Saying things like 'you look fine/good' aren't helpfull whatsoever. She posted before and was unhappy and still is unhappy and her life is clearly miserable because she's unhappy with parts of her face. Now, I won't say that she'll be happy with another surgery, but if the outcome is better than it is now, it might help her feel more confident.

I just don't agree with her judgement about bad jaw and chin. But this is no surprise. It's very difficult to pinpoint your own flaws (it's easier to pinpoint other people's flaws), it happens all the time: there's an overall dissatisfaction with the face and the person thinks the flaw lies somewhere while in reality it's another part of the face. I think you have a great maxilla, great teeth, great lips, good jaw and chin. That's my opinion. Now it could be I just don't see it on these particular pics. Pics can be disturbing.

When people say she looks nice/good now, it's in reference to the surgery she GOT. It isn't in reference to the surgery she DIDN'T get such as rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation you pointed out in your other post as her 'flaws'.

[ben from UK]

Self-reporting one's lived experience is ABSOLUTELY subject to bias and can very much be a 'mental' thing.  All of our experiences are filtered through our own state of mind.  If she was internally unhappy with her result, her perceptions of 'male interest' will be subject to that same pessimism.  The point is that she looks GOOD now, and members who have seen her before pics say she looks BETTER than before.

I do not agree. Male interest is not influenced by a woman's pessimism or chacracter. It's very simple in real life: good looking women get more attention, bad looking women get less attention. If she noticed a drop in male interest, there is probably something that has to do with her looks that changed (I don't know the reason). Her own intuition is the greatest source of knowledge. Dismissing this as a mental thing is really doing no good to the case. She knows best and is atributing this to a change in appearance, so we have to take this as how it is. You have to be really psychotic/delusional to think it's due to appearance while in reality it's due to a mental thing. Most people that are unhappy with their looks have a very strong intuition, they are very woke when it comes to human interaction and they know intuitively when something is wrong about their appearance, cause it usually has a direct effect on how people treat you.

She looks okay, a bit above average. I do underetand that she's not very happy with her face, there are some flaws that could be adressed. I''m not gonna sugarcoat things. She's not happy, and if she wants to change things to become happier, there are things that she could do. If she came here with a story that she's happy with her face but there are some minor things she wants to do, like teeth whitening or whatever, I'm not going to pinpoint the flaws in her face. That would be another story. But this woman is clearly very unhappy and she has posted before. Her before pic was very vague, so drawing conclusions based on that is not easy.

[ben from UK]

When people say she looks nice/good now, it's in reference to the surgery she GOT. It isn't in reference to the surgery she DIDN'T get such as rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation you pointed out in your other post as her 'flaws'.

Well, if that's the case, then yes, there's nothing wrong with her jaw and chin. But she talks about nose change and recessed maxilla as well. Maybe she's confused with other recessed parts, I don't know. Maybe she could react on the posts.

[Post bimax]

I do not agree. Male interest is not influenced by a woman's pessimism or chacracter. It's very simple in real life: good looking women get more attention, bad looking women get less attention. If she noticed a drop in male interest, there is probably something that has to do with her looks that changed (I don't know the reason). Her own intuition is the greatest source of knowledge. Dismissing this as a mental thing is really doing no good to the case. She knows best and is atributing this to a change in appearance, so we have to take this as how it is. You have to be really psychotic/delusional to think it's due to appearance while in reality it's due to a mental thing. Most people that are unhappy with their looks have a very strong intuition, they are very woke when it comes to human interaction and they know intuitively when something is wrong about their appearance, cause it usually has a direct effect on how people treat you.

She looks okay, a bit above average. I do underetand that she's not very happy with her face, there are some flaws that could be adressed. I''m not gonna sugarcoat things. She's not happy, and if she wants to change things to become happier, there are things that she could do. If she came here with a story that she's happy with her face but there are some minor things she wants to do, like teeth whitening or whatever, I'm not going to pinpoint the flaws in her face. That would be another story. But this woman is clearly very unhappy and she has posted before. Her before pic was very vague, so drawing conclusions based on that is not easy.

You misunderstood what I said.  I said her subjective experience, i.e, a perceived decrease in male attention, is likely a product of her own pessimism about her surgical result.  She is less likely to interpret an interaction as positive 'male attention' because internally she feels bad about the way she looks now.  Subjective self-reporting is bound up with all sorts of biases and questions about self-esteem and identity.  What is MORE reliable are numerous members with an outside perspective, unburdened by these biases, saying she is more attractive post-op than pre-op.

[GJ]

Self-reporting one's lived experience is ABSOLUTELY subject to bias and can very much be a 'mental' thing.  All of our experiences are filtered through our own state of mind.  If she was internally unhappy with her result, her perceptions of 'male interest' will be subject to that same pessimism. 

Yes, and also possible to give off negative or unattractive vibes if you don't feel good about yourself.
No clue what Ben is talking about it's clearly an individual case by case thing and complex. Not something that should ever be described in absolutes.

[ben from UK]

I said her subjective experience, i.e, a perceived decrease in male attention, is likely a product of her own pessimism about her surgical result.  She is less likely to interpret an interaction as positive 'male attention' because internally she feels bad about the way she looks now. 

There is no proof for this. I highly doubt it. Her story is different, she reports less male attention after surgery. Let's say she was used to having three random males a day talking to her and now it's only two (hypothetically, to give an example). If she experiences this, it has imo nothing to do with interpretation. These are cold harsh facts for her. Above all, it's how she experiences it, and her experience is way more important than any conclusion we draw.

I have to see good before and after pics to judge myself. The pictures before were not good enough to see what's going on.

Yes, and also possible to give off negative or unattractive vibes if you don't feel good about yourself.
No clue what Ben is talking about it's clearly an individual case by case thing and complex. Not something that should ever be described in absolutes.

My experience is totally different, for my case and from what I see in life. I see people feeling sick/bad/depressed/whatever, I see some with horrible characters, snarky attitudes etc. It doesn't have much effect on the way people treat them. What I see is people in general who solely base their behavior and attitude on other people's looks and first facial impression. Life is very simple and also unpleasant sometimes if you keep it simple and take away all unnecesarry political correct views like 'there must be some mental thing going on'. Most people are sane and their intuition is quite strong. They get sick and depressed due to external factors (environment), not the other way around. If that was the case, we wouldn't try to change our looks. Keep it real and simple is how I see it.

[GJ]

My experience is totally different, for my case and from what I see in life. I see people feeling sick/bad/depressed/whatever, I see some with horrible characters, snarky attitudes etc. It doesn't have much effect on the way people treat them. What I see is people in general who solely base their behavior and attitude on other people's looks and first facial impression. Life is very simple and also unpleasant sometimes if you keep it simple and take away all unnecesarry political correct views like 'there must be some mental thing going on'. Most people are sane and their intuition is quite strong. They get sick and depressed due to external factors (environment), not the other way around. If that was the case, we wouldn't try to change our looks. Keep it real and simple is how I see it.

Of course looks matter, and they're #1, but that doesn't mean she's not giving off a vibe that's turning people off. It could be she doesn't look as good and people are turned off, too. We just don't have enough info.

I've rejected 10s when I was a 5 due to their personality, and visa versa where a 5 became a 10 due to being awesome. So everyone is different in what they find attractive. What's funny is if you reject a 10 they suddenly like you more. Even they are insecure.

[ben from UK]

Of course looks matter, and they're #1, but that doesn't mean she's not giving off a vibe that's turning people off. It could be she doesn't look as good and people are turned off, too. We just don't have enough info.

I've rejected 10s when I was a 5 due to their personality, and visa versa where a 5 became a 10 due to being awesome. So everyone is different in what they find attractive. What's funny is if you reject a 10 they suddenly like you more. Even they are insecure.

Okay, but I would like to see before pics as clear as these ones to be able to judge. I have no problem admiting I was wrong. If her before pics indeed were worse, than there's probably a mental thing going on. The pic she posted before was not clear enough.

I have experienced similar cases before, where someone said 'you look way better than before, you should be happy' and it turns out the person posted a bad before-pic and a good-after pic. Then they sent me a good before pic and a bad after pic and I could see why the person was unhappy. Pics do not always show what precisely is going on, especially if there's bad lightening and angles etc. Also, lots of people tend to post better afterpics and worse beforepics. This is a psychological thing, we want to feel better about our procedures. I don't say this is the case here, but nothing can be excluded.

I've rejected 10s when I was a 5 due to their personality, and visa versa where a 5 became a 10 due to being awesome. So everyone is different in what they find attractive. What's funny is if you reject a 10 they suddenly like you more. Even they are insecure.
.

Of course,yes, this happens. But it's about statistics. Let's say person A is ugly and person B is good looking. They both encounter 100 people. Each person might react in a different way, but statistically, person B will encounter more sexual interest (usually), independent of how he/she feels inside.

My upper lip is unsupported now/philtrum elongated, it’s aged me. Face looks long and sad. With my open bite, my upper lip was fuller and more flirty, smile appeared bigger and more inviting.

OP, this is what you wrote before. This is new information for me. I indeed see a philtrum that might be slightly too long (I think maybe 1-2 milimeters).

[kavan]

Okay, but I would like to see before pics.....

Ben, she still has her before profile photos up.   Reply #3
on this string: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,7029.msg60404.html#msg60404
Her before is on the RIGHT SIDE of her 3 photo collage.

[PloskoPlus]

Self-reporting one's lived experience is ABSOLUTELY subject to bias and can very much be a 'mental' thing.  All of our experiences are filtered through our own state of mind.  If she was internally unhappy with her result, her perceptions of 'male interest' will be subject to that same pessimism.  The point is that she looks GOOD now, and members who have seen her before pics say she looks BETTER than before.

Yes, self-reporting is unreliable.

[ben from UK]

Ben, she still has her before profile photos up.   Reply #3
on this string: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,7029.msg60404.html#msg60404
Her before is on the RIGHT SIDE of her 3 photo collage.

Yeah, I see. It does look better (although I would like to see another before pic from the front). Less interest from people might be because of normal ageing process. Nothing you can do about it. Looking at these pics, I wouldn't touch the nose either.

Edit: wait, what are the pre op pics and post op pics? Are the first two pics pre op and the third post op? Or is the first pic pre op and the second pic post op? OP,  please clarify. Cause if the first two pics are pre op and the third post op, in that case, yes, she seems to have lost some atractiveness and her assesment is right.

[Post bimax]

Yeah, I see. It does look better (although I would like to see another before pic from the front). Less interest from people might be because of normal ageing process. Nothing you can do about it. Looking at these pics, I wouldn't touch the nose either.

Edit: wait, what are the pre op pics and post op pics? Are the first two pics pre op and the third post op? Or is the first pic pre op and the second pic post op? OP,  please clarify. Cause if the first two pics are pre op and the third post op, in that case, yes, she seems to have lost some atractiveness and her assesment is right.

She looks best in the third pic even though the difference is small from the front.

Also, look at her profile pics a couple comments down. Huge improvement from right to left.

[kavan]

Yeah, I see. It does look better (although I would like to see another before pic from the front). Less interest from people might be because of normal ageing process. Nothing you can do about it. Looking at these pics, I wouldn't touch the nose either.

Edit: wait, what are the pre op pics and post op pics? Are the first two pics pre op and the third post op? Or is the first pic pre op and the second pic post op? OP,  please clarify. Cause if the first two pics are pre op and the third post op, in that case, yes, she seems to have lost some atractiveness and her assesment is right.

I said in my post her pre op was the RIGHT side of the 3 photo profile collage. It's out of order given pre ops should be on LEFT and not right. Hence it's confusing. But I told you which was the pre-op in my post.

[some1afterall]

I did not expect to get so many comments, so thank you for engaging. So what did Gunson say? A plan with CCW, posterior downgrafting, overall about 10mm of vertical reduction. I would say I agree that my profile WAS improved, even though the surgery at Kaiser was disappointing to me. I’d say the things I’m most uncomfortable with post-surgery are my chin from the frontal view, my flattened/hanging upper lip at rest, and widening/more nostril show of nose. IMO these changes aged me and masculinized me. I so wish I had seen this website and community PRIOR to surgery, as to open my eyes to the reality that for many, orthognathic surgery is not some miracle fix all. I definitely had misproportionate expectations.

Right now I have to sort out how much of the dissatisfaction that I have with my appearance is related to the jaw surgery and how much of it is just genetic shortcomings. I have elongated philtrum, but don’t want to get a lip lift because of tooth show (not to mention unsightly scarring). Rhinoplasty could make my nose look more feminine, but it’s risky and could potentially off balance the rest of my features or make my philtrum appear even longer and nose more upturned/more nostril show, revision jaw surgery with CCW and maxilla advancement might give more support to my upper lip and help with lip incompetence, but then won’t my chin look more prominent and masculine then it already is?

It seems like so much can go wrong with facial surgery.