Author Topic: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question  (Read 1910 times)

eranthe

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Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« on: October 16, 2019, 10:59:23 PM »
Hello again ... deep breath ...  as some of you know, I had a maxilla-only revision last October.  It was my third osteotomy on the maxilla, and my sixth surgery in six years.  There was a lot of discussion during the planning of this single-jaw revision surgery about whether we should be re-doing both jaws (bi-max) or just a single-jaw revision. 

One of my main concerns through all of these revisions has been the fact that I have never experienced lip-competency, and that my mandible continues to collapse open on my airway when I try to lie down to sleep (which I cannot live with).  After six maxfac surgeries, I continue to sleep propped upright with pillows, and I have to use strong surgical tape to pull my throat skin up an over my chin to keep my airways open when I recline to sleep). 

As the planning of my last revision involved advancement of the maxilla in order to perform a cw rotation (to replace the mid-face elevation lost during the last surgery), I was very concerned at the time that this may make the relationship between my jaws even worse (my surgeon had previously acknowledged that my mandible was never advanced adequately in my original bi-max surgery).  I raised this concern many times and asked if I should also have a bsso as part of my revision.  My instinct was that a bi-max was required ... however,  whenever I raised this possibility, my surgeon would agree in theory, but panic and tell me that there was "not enough bone-stock" to perform another bsso, that my jaw would "shatter", and that the whole idea of trying to do another cut to my mandible "terrified" him made him "very nervous".  During our conversations he would focus on the possibility of bad-splits and non-unions and would then tell me that more surgery on the mandible was not really an option.  A week before my surgery, he finally told me it was "off the table".

When I think back to how I made my decision to go with a single-jaw revision last time, I realize it was strongly influenced by my surgeons acute anxiety about all the things that could go wrong.  Whilst it's true that I was somewhat ambivalent about the thought of another bsso - it was his palpable fear that seemed to be driving the decision making process for both of us until the decision was finally out of my hands.  In retrospect, I wish he had been more optimistic and encouraged me in the direction of the surgical response that would have been most likely to resolve all my functional issues.

Forward to today ... it's now been one year ... my sleep apnea is worse than it's ever been.  I have no lip competency ... not even when upright and walking and certainly not when lying down.  It is patently clear to me that advancing the maxilla to perform the cw rotation to elevate the mid-face and improve tooth-show - in the absence of mandible advancement - was a really terrible idea.  I may not look like a 90 year old crone with a collapsed mid-face anymore, but now I can't keep my mouth closed, and I still can't get any sleep.  I have been asking for a meeting with my surgeon to discuss revision, but my calls and emails have been ignored. Like many patients with unsuccessful outcomes, I have become persona non-grata!

In the absence of further surgery, my only option now (after 6 years and 6 surgeries!!!) is to get a MAS - however, I have an acrylic allergy - which is why I had the damn surgery in the first place!

In desperation, I went to see a senior Professor a couple of weeks ago to have my case reviewed privately by the best surgeon I could find.  He took one look at my radiology history and noted the disaster before him!  He examined me and told me he was pretty shocked at the clinical decisions made and surgeries I have had to date.  He told me flatly that he could see just by looking at me that the surgeries had been a failure as they had not fixed my breathing issues and that I needed to go back to the beginning and re bi-max!

I told him how much effort and planning had gone into the last surgery a year ago on my maxilla, and how complicated my issues of symmetry had been to rectify, and that I could not face further surgery on the maxilla.  He said he understood, and said that - as a second option - I could simply bring the mandible forward (there is loads of room to do this dentally as there is a fair amount of overbite).

I told him this was all moot because my current surgeon had told me that I didn't have enough bone-stock to re-do the bsso.

He said "rubbish, you have more than enough bone"!

I told him that my current surgeon had told me it was way too dangerous, and that there was the likelihood of bad split and non-union.

He said "rubbish, it sounds like he just doesn't want to do it"!

I told him I was afraid of permanent nerve damage as I was still quite numb from the last surgery and asked him if another surgery would make that worse?

He said "not if it's done properly"!

I told him that everything he was saying was the opposite of what my current surgeon had been telling me for the last five years.  I told him that I wished he had done my original surgery.  I told him I was feeling angry and litigious.

He said "I don't blame you!"

So I went to see my current surgeons Registrar and told him that I had gone to get a second-opinion.  I told him that if they did not speak to me about the possibility of revision, I would be forced to take legal action. 

Suddenly this week I am contacted by the clinic and asked to get new radiology because a revision is suddenly "back on the table"! I asked them what had changed, they said they had reviewed my case and could see that further surgery was required.

Anyway, now I am left with a decision to make.  I have sustained a numb lower lip and chin from the last bsso 6 years ago.  It has improved a lot in six years, but it still bothers me.  I have to weigh that up against being able to keep my mouth close, and being able to breathe when I lie down to sleep at night - a decision I wouldn't have to be making now if I'd been adequately advanced in the first place  >:(

Anyway, any help, guidance suggestions would be appreciated.
In particular, are there any precautions I can take to avoid further nerve damage with a bsso revision?
 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 11:20:08 PM by eranthe »

april

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 11:15:11 PM »
I'm so sorry for everything you've been through!

I told him that if they did not speak to me about the possibility of revision, I would be forced to take legal action. 

I just hope you aren't considering doing a revision with your old team again?

You are stuck on a merry-go-round with them, and as hard as it is, you should forget about them entirely and do it with the other guy.

eranthe

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2019, 11:31:40 PM »
Hey April, thanks.  Yes this is true ... but unfortunately the senior surgeon I went to for the second opinion doesn't do public work (I am a public patient).  He is very expensive so the cost is prohibitive unfortunately. 

The only thing in my favour now is that the revision I require now is a fairly straightforward advancement.  What I'm most worried about is junior registrars poking around at my nerves as I have already sustained damage in that area.

My choices at present are I either take my chances and let my existing team move the mandible forward ... or I take legal action (which could take years) and use the proceeds to get it fixed properly privately.

Another thought I have had is to ask the senior surgeon to do the hands-on work himself and just have his registrars observe.  I know this is not the norm in a teaching hospital, but after all the things that have gone wrong, you would think that would be the least they could do.   :-[

april

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2019, 03:50:04 AM »
Hey April, thanks.  Yes this is true ... but unfortunately the senior surgeon I went to for the second opinion doesn't do public work (I am a public patient).  He is very expensive so the cost is prohibitive unfortunately.

Ah yeah, it's definitely not easy when you're constrained by finances. Could you start up a gofundme with your friends and family? Or could the Prof recommend a different public surgeon?

The only thing in my favour now is that the revision I require now is a fairly straightforward advancement.

Yeah in theory. Obviously, the worry is that given your team's extremely poor history, they might still mess that up.

Hope that's not the case though.

kavan

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2019, 09:54:05 AM »
It sounds like you got the revision to the maxilla, the 3rd surgery for AESTHETIC reason, as to compensate for an aesthetic trade-off that resulted subsequent to a prior surgery; 'to replace the mid-face elevation lost during the last surgery'.

So, I take it that one surgery gave you some midface elevation (an aesthetic perk) and a revision you wanted (for something else) had the trade off of undoing something GOOD that the past surgery did (to somehow elevate your midface).

To this regard, the next revision you wanted, to restore the midface elevation you lost from a prior revision, involved CLOCKWISE rotation to do that. Although you expressed concern that CLOCKWISE (CW) rotation would rotate your lower jaw backwards even more and hence you WANTED a BSSO to be performed with that, IMO, the fact that you wanted a (bone cutting) revision to address midface aesthetic trade-off issue from prior surgery establishes (to the doctor) a STRONG PRIORITY for aesthetics. Nothing wrong with wanting good aesthetics. But the situation of requesting a BSSO to be performed along with a CW rotation is one where the advancement is over a STEEPER DIAGONAL and for that reason a LONGER diagonal distance displacement of the BSSO would be needed for the horizontal displacement component to open airway more.

Essentially, your request for the BSSO (via CW) not only resolved to asking for a LARGER displacement that would have to be done to get the 'good' horizontal displacement vector for better breathing out of it but ALSO a STEEPER mandibular plane angle. The former being a BIGGER risk to the bone and the latter being quite possibly another negative aesthetic TRADE-OFF that you probably would not have been happy with. So, if there would be no positive aesthetic benefit of performing a BSSO under a STEEPER inclination, where the increased mm displacement would need to be done for it which, in turn, would have given you a STEEPER MPA, perhaps part of your doctor's concern was that you would be wanting yet another revision if what you asked for resulted in an aesthetic trade-off you didn't like.

So, let's clear the air here. From the surgeons POV, you wanted revision to the maxilla (CW with advancement) to restore a lost AESTHETIC relationship from a prior revision. With that, you also wanted a BSSO for better breathing. So EVEN if the BSSO would have given you better breathing and did not result if bad split or things like that, to achieve it would have required a LONGER DISTANCE to be traveled due to the CW rotation of the maxilla. So UNLESS, a longer STEEPER diagonal distance TO significantly INCREASE the steepness of your mandibular plane angle would have been a 'good' aesthetic thing for you, there would be no aesthetic grounds to justify the BSSO. From the doctor's POV, he's got a patient who has established revision requests for aesthetic reasons. So, perhaps his main concern was that you would be requesting YET ANOTHER revision BSSO if your request to have one with the maxilla revision did not look good aesthetically.

I think he may have ANTICIPATED that which would resolve in a future BSSO revision request (for aesthetics), in which case you would be, at a future time, at very HIGH RISK for bad breaks and things like that. No idea WHY he didn't just tell you something like; 'Sure, I'll do it. But if you don't like the aesthetic outcome of the lower jaw having to be advanced out so much via a CLOCKWISE rotation, that will be your LAST BSSO and/or revision.'

IDK. Maybe he was being PATERNAL and/or thought it was just easier to say your bone quality was issue for not doing it than to explain to you the aesthetic relationship outcome of of your request. IMO, it kind of sounds like he had reason to think you would NOT like the aesthetic outcome to the lower jaw via a BSSO under CW, would be asking for yet another revision (on aesthetic grounds) and at THAT point of time (in the future), you would have been MAXED OUT on revisions, eg. at VERY HIGH RISK for bone breaks. That's the only explanation I can think of given the NEXT doctor told you that you DID have good enough quality bone for another BSSO and/or entire revision.

So, with the second opinion where THAT doctor tells you that you COULD have another revision, you elect to threaten litigation to your attending surgeon IF he does not do one. You elect to to do that INSTEAD of just having the doctor who seems very CONFIDENT that you could have one 'if done right' do this revision. The better solution would just be to have the doctor advocating FOR the revision to be the one to do it.

Threat of litigation could have been a factor in your present doctor deciding to do another revision. So, even though he told you your bone quality was not good enough to do another one and that was not true, BUT told you that BECAUSE he had good reason to believe you would be unhappy with aesthetic outcome of BSSO and quite possibly would be wanting another revision due to that.

Consider that now that your present doctor is POSITIONED to do a revision (on legal grounds that he told you your bone quality was 'bad' where a higher doctor refuted that), legally, he would be 'in the clear' IF you had any of the bad RISKS associated with bimax surgery materialize and/or you didn't like the aesthetic trade-off with FUNCTIONAL correction only.

In effect, he's kind of 'stuck' doing a  revision he probably does NOT want to do because the OTHER doctor made a case that you should have one. BAD IDEA to have a doctor to perform a surgery he's POSITIONED to do but does not want to do it.

My advice would be to have the OTHER doctor do your surgery.
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kavan

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2019, 10:02:56 AM »
I'm so sorry for everything you've been through!

I just hope you aren't considering doing a revision with your old team again?

You are stuck on a merry-go-round with them, and as hard as it is, you should forget about them entirely and do it with the other guy.

+ karma for expressing this in so few words where I had to make a very long post to express similar.
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kavan

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2019, 02:41:26 PM »
The salient synopsis of my (long) post (below) is that a BSSO done with CW rotation to the maxilla is  ANTAGONISTIC to to MAXIMIZING the horizontal displacement while MINIMIZING the vertical displacement.  It's also ANTAGONISTIC to MINIMIZING the the length of the OPEN WOUND bone cut to the mandible simply because CW to the maxilla rotates the mandible down and backwards and a LONGER open wound cut is needed to the mandible just to get the HORIZONTAL displacement needed for better breathing.

The 'better' BSSOs are the ones where CCW to to maxilla effectively gives the mandible a 'free ride' where it gets advanced forward and up (a bit) with NO BSSO. That's the one that's best for breathing.  Then the BSSO part, itself requires a SHORTER open wound for the rest of the advancement. So, what I call a 'better' BSSO is one with CCW where the horizontal displacement is MAXIMIZED, vertical displacement (which increases the STEEPNESS of the MPA) is MINIMIZED and also the (open wound) bone CUT is MINIMIZED.

So, your request for a BSSO with your CW rotation of the maxilla (to revise LOST MIDFACE ELEVATION from a prior revision) resolved to a request for an INEFFICIENT BSSO; one with a HIGHER RISK of bone/nerve damage, (because the open cut would have to be a LONG one) and also a higher aesthetic risk of your not liking the long diagonalized STEEP mandibular plane that would go with it and then asking for a revision for aesthetic reasons even if there were no bad breaks of bone or nerve snaps. It would be the NEXT requested revision (aesthetic reasons) of an INEFFICIENT bsso, once you found it didn't look good (even if you got what you asked for with the CW revision to the maxilla) with the HIGH likelihood of doing you in as to bad breaks and nerve damage. That's my theory. Also my theory that the surgeon who initially REFUSED to do it ANTICIPATED you would not like the aesthetic sequella even if it fixed your breathing and had no bad bone breaks or nerve snaps.

If he told you something like your request for the BSSO with CW rotation would give you a long steep MPA that might not look that good, then he'd have to SHOW you or take a lot of time explaining that. I guess easier for him to say it risked bone damage due to compromised bone.

Now, he's GOTTA accommodate your request because the other PRIVATE PAY doc caught him on a 'technicality'; that of telling you your bone quality was too compromised to do it (when it really wasn't).

I can't predict stuff like nerve damage or bad breaks from here. All I can tell you from here is that your REQUEST, that you have POSITIONED him to do, MIGHT have an aesthetic TRADE-OFF you won't like (to the lower jaw) even IF it helps your breathing and you come out with no bad breaks or nerve snaps.

So, be prepared for possibly not liking the aesthetic 'look' of it and it quite possibly being your LAST revision whether you like the outcome or not.






It sounds like you got the revision to the maxilla, the 3rd surgery for AESTHETIC reason, as to compensate for an aesthetic trade-off that resulted subsequent to a prior surgery; 'to replace the mid-face elevation lost during the last surgery'.

So, I take it that one surgery gave you some midface elevation (an aesthetic perk) and a revision you wanted (for something else) had the trade off of undoing something GOOD that the past surgery did (to somehow elevate your midface).

To this regard, the next revision you wanted, to restore the midface elevation you lost from a prior revision, involved CLOCKWISE rotation to do that. Although you expressed concern that CLOCKWISE (CW) rotation would rotate your lower jaw backwards even more and hence you WANTED a BSSO to be performed with that, IMO, the fact that you wanted a (bone cutting) revision to address midface aesthetic trade-off issue from prior surgery establishes (to the doctor) a STRONG PRIORITY for aesthetics. Nothing wrong with wanting good aesthetics. But the situation of requesting a BSSO to be performed along with a CW rotation is one where the advancement is over a STEEPER DIAGONAL and for that reason a LONGER diagonal distance displacement of the BSSO would be needed for the horizontal displacement component to open airway more.

Essentially, your request for the BSSO (via CW) not only resolved to asking for a LARGER displacement that would have to be done to get the 'good' horizontal displacement vector for better breathing out of it but ALSO a STEEPER mandibular plane angle. The former being a BIGGER risk to the bone and the latter being quite possibly another negative aesthetic TRADE-OFF that you probably would not have been happy with. So, if there would be no positive aesthetic benefit of performing a BSSO under a STEEPER inclination, where the increased mm displacement would need to be done for it which, in turn, would have given you a STEEPER MPA, perhaps part of your doctor's concern was that you would be wanting yet another revision if what you asked for resulted in an aesthetic trade-off you didn't like.

So, let's clear the air here. From the surgeons POV, you wanted revision to the maxilla (CW with advancement) to restore a lost AESTHETIC relationship from a prior revision. With that, you also wanted a BSSO for better breathing. So EVEN if the BSSO would have given you better breathing and did not result if bad split or things like that, to achieve it would have required a LONGER DISTANCE to be traveled due to the CW rotation of the maxilla. So UNLESS, a longer STEEPER diagonal distance TO significantly INCREASE the steepness of your mandibular plane angle would have been a 'good' aesthetic thing for you, there would be no aesthetic grounds to justify the BSSO. From the doctor's POV, he's got a patient who has established revision requests for aesthetic reasons. So, perhaps his main concern was that you would be requesting YET ANOTHER revision BSSO if your request to have one with the maxilla revision did not look good aesthetically.

I think he may have ANTICIPATED that which would resolve in a future BSSO revision request (for aesthetics), in which case you would be, at a future time, at very HIGH RISK for bad breaks and things like that. No idea WHY he didn't just tell you something like; 'Sure, I'll do it. But if you don't like the aesthetic outcome of the lower jaw having to be advanced out so much via a CLOCKWISE rotation, that will be your LAST BSSO and/or revision.'

IDK. Maybe he was being PATERNAL and/or thought it was just easier to say your bone quality was issue for not doing it than to explain to you the aesthetic relationship outcome of of your request. IMO, it kind of sounds like he had reason to think you would NOT like the aesthetic outcome to the lower jaw via a BSSO under CW, would be asking for yet another revision (on aesthetic grounds) and at THAT point of time (in the future), you would have been MAXED OUT on revisions, eg. at VERY HIGH RISK for bone breaks. That's the only explanation I can think of given the NEXT doctor told you that you DID have good enough quality bone for another BSSO and/or entire revision.

So, with the second opinion where THAT doctor tells you that you COULD have another revision, you elect to threaten litigation to your attending surgeon IF he does not do one. You elect to to do that INSTEAD of just having the doctor who seems very CONFIDENT that you could have one 'if done right' do this revision. The better solution would just be to have the doctor advocating FOR the revision to be the one to do it.

Threat of litigation could have been a factor in your present doctor deciding to do another revision. So, even though he told you your bone quality was not good enough to do another one and that was not true, BUT told you that BECAUSE he had good reason to believe you would be unhappy with aesthetic outcome of BSSO and quite possibly would be wanting another revision due to that.

Consider that now that your present doctor is POSITIONED to do a revision (on legal grounds that he told you your bone quality was 'bad' where a higher doctor refuted that), legally, he would be 'in the clear' IF you had any of the bad RISKS associated with bimax surgery materialize and/or you didn't like the aesthetic trade-off with FUNCTIONAL correction only.

In effect, he's kind of 'stuck' doing a  revision he probably does NOT want to do because the OTHER doctor made a case that you should have one. BAD IDEA to have a doctor to perform a surgery he's POSITIONED to do but does not want to do it.

My advice would be to have the OTHER doctor do your surgery.
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PloskoPlus

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Re: Update, BSSO Revision & Nerve Recovery Question
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2019, 04:34:31 PM »
From the sounds of it, what you really need is CCW rotation with posterior downgrafting of the maxilla. Unfortunately maxfac surgery in Australia is bush league level. I'm aware of only *2* surgeons who have just started doing this a couple of years ago. This kind of surgery is now more than 30 years old.