Author Topic: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas  (Read 10675 times)

april

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Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« on: November 10, 2019, 07:52:19 AM »
So this surgeon talks about a whole lot of different jaw surgery topics, and it's a bit long/technical to read the whole thing. He does have some pretty good surgery results in there (the girl with the HA cheeks at the end, and the asymmetry cases are really impressive!). But anyway, this section caught my eye, as it's like an in-depth list of factors that could lead to relapse or a poor result.

That said, I'm sure every surgeon/ortho probably has their own protocols and ways of doing things, so don't take this as gospel, but this list might be helpful to some ppl.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6150705/

7) If you could summarize 10 traps of surgical orthodontic treatment, what would they be?

I would divide the traps into presurgical, surgical and postsurgical. The four most important presurgical traps are:


1. Absence of treatment plan, when orthodontist and surgeon do not communicate. This scenario looks like a stray ship in the sea. The results may be randomly good if the teeth appear well aligned and symmetrically positioned within the jaw bones. Also, this kind of random orthodontic setup may lead to a dead end, if the surgeon sees that the teeth have been camouflaged and that dental midlines do not coincide with the skeletal midlines; molar torque is different on both sides; dental cants do not match with the skeletal cants (different dentoalveolar heights between the sides) or if there is an obvious dental compensation instead of decompensation. In all the above-mentioned scenarios, facial planning is aggravated since the position of the teeth may influence the vector and repositioning of jawbones too much.

2. Instabilities in orthodontic treatment: expansion of dental arch, orthodontic leveling of dual occlusal planes, which may lead to loss of occlusion after treatment. In non-surgical cases, the relapse is not so heart-breaking as in surgical cases, for which the patient has already paid a huge physiological cost. Failure to remove hazardous functional components such as tongue thrust, bruxism or mouth breathing may also result in postsurgical relapse.

3. Inadequate attention to the management of the condyles: the stability of occlusion depends half on the occlusion itself and half on the condyles. Healthy large condyles undergo minimal remodeling after surgery and maintain stable occlusion throughout postoperative follow-up. However, diseased condyles that had been affected by arthritis, trauma or overloading as well as systemic medical conditions are subject to major remodeling with loss of volume and occlusal shift throughout the first 18 months of postsurgical follow-up. It is imperative not to put the patient through surgery until the condyles are not stabilized and unloaded with splints and until a smooth condylar surface is seen in the CT or MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) with the absence of inflammatory process.

4. Closure of extraction spaces: in severe crowding or when there is a necessity to decompensate and retract the front group of teeth, premolar extractions are a better alternative than staging surgery with SARPE. However, closure of extraction spaces should be neither random nor forced: application of power chain elastics usually ends up with loss of torque of the front teeth, over-retraction of the front teeth and roller coaster phenomenon. Proper orthodontic techniques need to be utilized to achieve controlled bodily movement of the front group of teeth to achieve the pre-planned position in the alveolar bone and only then the residual extraction space should be closed by protraction of the back teeth.

The most important surgery-related traps are:

1. Poor facial planning: occlusion-driven facial planning will result in frustration if facial harmony is worsened or new facial deformities appear. One of the most challenging and important steps of the workflow is the aesthetic facial treatment planning in the profile and front views, since the highest motivational factor for patients seeking orthognathic treatment is improvement of facial aesthetics.

2. Improper surgical technique resulting in malocclusion or misplaced correct occlusion: unfavorable splits of the jaws leading to inadequate mobilization; failure to remove bone collision points, leading to improper seating of the condyles; improper technique for seating the condyles in the glenoid fossa; non-passive plating of the osteotomy lines; failure to stabilize buttresses with bone grafts.

3. Insufficient follow-up after surgery by the surgeon: occlusal slides may lead to loss of midline and may affect the healing of the osteotomy sites. Therefore, it is important that the surgeon checks for occlusal contacts and adjust the occlusion if necessary by means of negative/positive coronoplasty and/or elastics. The protocol for postoperative care is follow-up visits at days 2, 4, 7, 10 and 14 after surgery, then every week up to 8 weeks, every 2 weeks up to 4 months, every month up to 8 months, then at 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, 60 and 120 months.

The most important postsurgical traps:

1. Restart of orthodontic treatment on both arches at once: after segmental bimaxillary osteotomies the upper jaw segments change vertical height and torque. Therefore, the front 6 or 8 or even 10 brackets need to be rebonded in a passive line or the archwire needs to be bent according to the new position and torque of front teeth. In either way, the change to continuous archwire needs to be smooth. Due to regional acceleratory phenomenon teeth move faster in the alveolar bone. Therefore, it is easy to lose current occlusion if the changes in the shape of the archwire are too big or too fast, especially if both archwires are changed at the same time.

2. Causing temporomandibular disorder (TMD) in the active postoperative phase: too many elastics after surgery used for settling may cause overloading of the condyles and pain, and in rare cases disk dislocation may appear. It is important to have good posterior occlusal contacts if heavy vertical elastics are used for settling. TMD can be caused by closing of spaces in the anterior upper dentition. Retroclination may cause primary contact on anterior teeth and a loss of posterior contact, resulting in occlusal instability and temporomandibular joint (TMJ) pain.

3. Fixed retention does not guarantee stable occlusion after debonding: it is important to put upper and lower teeth in retention by securing back teeth too. Failure to retain the back teeth may result in dental rotations leading to loss of molar overbite and relapse into a crossbite, and formation of the anterior open bite. The most standard type of retention devices we use are: fixed retainers for the front teeth and wraparound retainers with no occlusal interferences for full arch retention. Removable retention devices should be used night time only. Occlusal and dental rehabilitation by creating good cusp to fissure contacts and occlusal guidance is the best retention measure for the long term success.

kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 12:27:18 PM »
Looks like a legit journal.  I would like to 'dumb down' some things. Not to you, personally, of course. But rather because the things I picked out sound familiar as to to difficulties posters have expressed.

 ' Absence of treatment plan, when orthodontist and surgeon do not communicate....'

I think that is often the case when patients are in braces (or invasaline) for 'something' and then they go around on multi consults in pursuit of the maxfax part of various treatment proposals where the situation is inherently one where there is no communication between which ever otho they have and the doctors they are consulting with. They are in braces for 'something' and the more consults they go on, the more they get confused and linger longer in indecision. Any treatment plan via braces should be that of the CHOSEN doctor such there is direct communication via him/her and ortho. All treatment plans from any doctor are always contingent on the braces doing what they want them to do.

'Poor facial planning: occlusion-driven facial planning will result in frustration if facial harmony is worsened or new facial deformities appear.'

There certainly are a lot of 'old school' type doctors who will make the face wrong to get the bite right. That includes orthos too.

'Restart of orthodontic treatment on both arches at once.'

Given the braces are there with pre-surgical objective and he mentions 'acceleratory phenomenon teeth move faster in the alveolar bone' and that would have to do with movement of the teeth being faster after a surgery (eg. surgery first techniques rely on that phenomenon), it does make sense to monitor the the ortho devices on there as to what they are doing and to alter their course to be consistent with the needs of the surgical change.

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kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 02:19:49 PM »
He seems to have a patient detractor.

http://myorthognathic.surgery/site/?page_id=1297
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PloskoPlus

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 05:29:46 PM »
He seems to have a patient detractor.

http://myorthognathic.surgery/site/?page_id=1297
I believe that guy posted here as well.

InvisalignOnly

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2019, 10:29:06 AM »
I looked at the guy's blog and pictures - I'm sorry for him that he's so unhappy with the result, but I personally think he looks better in the after, definitely not worse. I can't see what he's so upset about.

kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 06:03:57 PM »
I looked at the guy's blog and pictures - I'm sorry for him that he's so unhappy with the result, but I personally think he looks better in the after, definitely not worse. I can't see what he's so upset about.

IDK. I just knew I saw the name before in the topic header. I knew I saw it somewhere. So, in the process of doing a search on the doctor's name, I found where I saw it before and stuck the link in here.
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april

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 08:07:43 PM »
He seems to have a patient detractor.

I read that as a patented distractor lol

Not sure what happened to the guy. Either way, I'm sure he would find this list to be rather ironic.

Of course, the list is written for orthodontists/surgeon audience, and patients do not have control over many aspects, but there are still some good nuggets of info and things to be aware of.

april

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 08:21:49 PM »
Looks like a legit journal.  I would like to 'dumb down' some things. Not to you, personally, of course. But rather because the things I picked out sound familiar as to to difficulties posters have expressed.

' Absence of treatment plan, when orthodontist and surgeon do not communicate....'

I didn't want to make this thread about my case lol, but I relate 110% I think this is why the article stood out to me. It blows my mind how text-book wrong things have gone for me. All the 4 presurgical traps have happened to me in one way or another.

I beat myself up for making wrong decisions, but I also know that it's usually not the patient's fault, it's often the orthodontists giving options that shouldn't have been options. For example, I saw some surgeons before starting ortho and I wasn't sure who to go with yet. The orthodontist told me I could complete the pre-surgical decompensation before deciding on a specific surgeon. Being a typical patient, not knowing anything about jaw surgery, I trusted the orthodontist to know best. Maybe it was a way for them to get me in and sign the contract. There are many more issues in my particular case, and subsequent lack of communication and compensations created, and it feels like it has all lead to dead-end - as the presurgical trap #1 says. I'm not even a stray ship, I'm more like a deserted washed-up shipwreck at this point.

I think it could also depend on the country you're in too. When I returned to one of the original surgeons, they said the ortho decides. Which sounds strange and old-school. Similar to what Simonas G talked about in his first part of his interview - he said the surgeon used to just dealt with what they were given: "Previously in our practice, orthodontic setup used to be random. Orthodontists used to align teeth, surgeons were used to face the resultant setup and had to find the way out. At present, a surgeon performs a detailed analysis of dental arches and their relationship with the skeletal parts, and gives guidelines for the orthodontist"

Quote
'Poor facial planning: occlusion-driven facial planning will result in frustration if facial harmony is worsened or new facial deformities appear.'

Definitely a biggie, and one we all hope to avoid.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 08:50:49 PM by april »

kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 08:46:49 PM »
I read that as a patented distractor lol

Not sure what happened to the guy. Either way, I'm sure he would find this list to be rather ironic.

Of course, the list is written for orthodontists/surgeon audience, and patients do not have control over many aspects, but there are still some good nuggets of info and things to be aware of.

LOL. Good one; a patented distractor.

ETA: 'IMDO'; In my Disgruntled Opinion
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:15:25 PM by kavan »
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kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 09:09:08 PM »
I didn't want to make this thread about my case lol, but I relate 110% I think this is why the article stood out to me. It blows my mind how text-book wrong things have gone for me. All the 4 presurgical traps have happened to me in one way or another.

I beat myself up for making wrong decisions, but I also know that it's usually not the patient's fault, it's often the orthodontists giving options that shouldn't have been options. For example, I saw some surgeons before starting ortho and I wasn't sure who to go with yet. The orthodontist told me I could complete the pre-surgical decompensation before deciding on a specific surgeon. Being a typical patient, not knowing anything about jaw surgery, I trusted the orthodontist to know best. Maybe it was a way for them to get me in and sign the contract. There are many more issues in my particular case, and subsequent lack of communication and compensations created, and it feels like it has all lead to dead-end - as the presurgical trap #1 says. I'm not even a stray ship, I'm more like a deserted washed-up shipwreck at this point.

I think it could also depend on the country you're in too. When I returned to one of the original surgeons, they said the ortho decides. Which sounds strange and old-school. Similar to what Simonas G talked about in his first part of his interview - he said the surgeon used to just dealt with what they were given: "Previously in our practice, orthodontic setup used to be random. Orthodontists used to align teeth, surgeons were used to face the resultant setup and had to find the way out. At present, a surgeon performs a detailed analysis of dental arches and their relationship with the skeletal parts, and gives guidelines for the orthodontist"

Definitely a biggie, and one we all hope to avoid.

There is just something really BACKWARD about about the whole max fax thing (or maybe it's just with the English speaking countries?) where a referral from an ORTHO is needed as some contingency to consult with a maxfax. That is a very BAD logistic set up.  Initial consult should be with the maxfax surgeon and THEN the referral to an ortho. Not the other way around.

Probably better for no contingency. Want to avoid surgery, then consult with an ortho. Want to go toward surgery, then consult with maxfax first.

Key consultation question to ask any ortho is: 'Which surgeons do you work directly with?'.  When they say: 'I can work with any surgeon.' Repeat the question: 'Which ones do you work directly with?'

If surgeon you are entertaining is not on their list or they don't give a direct answer, ask the surgeon: 'which orthos do you work directly with?'  If the SYSTEM still requires consult with an ortho first, then consult with one you're interested in having surgery with.
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InvisalignOnly

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2019, 12:28:02 AM »
There is just something really BACKWARD about about the whole max fax thing (or maybe it's just with the English speaking countries?) where a referral from an ORTHO is needed as some contingency to consult with a maxfax. That is a very BAD logistic set up.  Initial consult should be with the maxfax surgeon and THEN the referral to an ortho. Not the other way around.

I agree that this should be the case, ideally - however in reality, most people have no idea jaw surgery even exists before they visit an ortho to get their teeth 'fixed' and they are told about it. That was the case with me and judging from the Facebook group I'm a member of, it's the case with almost everybody. People notice that they or their kids have funny looking teeth so they go to an ortho to get it sorted out and they're in complete shock when they're told there's a surgery for this and that's pretty much the only solution. When I told my family as an adult that there's this thing out there and I'm thinking of getting it, they were pretty shocked. They're educated people, yet have never heard of jaw surgery before. So it's very unlikely that most people would even try to go straight to a surgeon instead of approaching an ortho first.

april

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2019, 03:18:55 AM »
ETA: 'IMDO'; In my Disgruntled Opinion

LOL, you gave some good advice above, but the karma's for this one.

Post bimax

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2019, 08:17:06 AM »
Quote
There is just something really BACKWARD about about the whole max fax thing (or maybe it's just with the English speaking countries?) where a referral from an ORTHO is needed as some contingency to consult with a maxfax. That is a very BAD logistic set up.  Initial consult should be with the maxfax surgeon and THEN the referral to an ortho. Not the other way around.

I'm actually going to guess that this is because maxfax surgery is prohibitively expensive for most people in the American healthcare system, even if you have some kind of insurance.  This leads to seeking the absolute cheapest way to correct any dento-facial deformity which is almost always going to be ortho-only, even if it's really sub optimal in terms of function and aesthetics.

I paid 4k out of pocket for ortho (used my lifetime insurance max when I had ortho as a kid) and another 28k for bimax+genio.  Luckily, insurance covered the 40k hospital bill for a 1 night stay.  Weak or no insurance would have doubled my out of pocket expenses even with a self-pay discount.

It seems as though in other countries you can get a pretty good surgeon and still be covered under your national healthcare plan assuming your issue is functional.  And even when paying surgical fees out of pocket, the hospital fees are way lower.  I can see how the extreme pricing in the US leads to the 'ortho-to-maxfax' funnel because US surgeons are raking in way more cash and their time is more 'valuable'.  They can't be bothered wasting time consulting patients who won't be able to afford the operation anyway because they might not be covered by insurance.  The ortho referral is a way to 'pre-approve' maxfax patients to save surgeons time/money.

kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2019, 10:43:50 AM »
I'm actually going to guess that this is because maxfax surgery is prohibitively expensive for most people in the American healthcare system, even if you have some kind of insurance.  This leads to seeking the absolute cheapest way to correct any dento-facial deformity which is almost always going to be ortho-only, even if it's really sub optimal in terms of function and aesthetics.

I paid 4k out of pocket for ortho (used my lifetime insurance max when I had ortho as a kid) and another 28k for bimax+genio.  Luckily, insurance covered the 40k hospital bill for a 1 night stay.  Weak or no insurance would have doubled my out of pocket expenses even with a self-pay discount.

It seems as though in other countries you can get a pretty good surgeon and still be covered under your national healthcare plan assuming your issue is functional.  And even when paying surgical fees out of pocket, the hospital fees are way lower.  I can see how the extreme pricing in the US leads to the 'ortho-to-maxfax' funnel because US surgeons are raking in way more cash and their time is more 'valuable'.  They can't be bothered wasting time consulting patients who won't be able to afford the operation anyway because they might not be covered by insurance.  The ortho referral is a way to 'pre-approve' maxfax patients to save surgeons time/money.

YES. That's entirely true when insurance is part of it. Thanx for pointing out the financial/economic logistics and insights.

I guess I should say it is unfortunate logistic set up (more clarification to prior use of word; 'BAD') for a patient, simply because the preclusion of getting info from maxfax first also precludes differentiation info as to whether he/she has skeletal deformity (maxfax fix) or dental deviation (ortho fix).

There are situations when an ortho gets the patient FIRST and then pulls out their teeth to push face back to get 'bite right'. But ya, you're right to point out the financial logistic reasons the maxfax would not want to be hit with consults from those who could not self pay or might not have type of insurance to kick in.

+ K for your insights.
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kavan

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Re: Interview with Simonas Grybauskas
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2019, 10:50:40 AM »
I agree that this should be the case, ideally - however in reality, most people have no idea jaw surgery even exists before they visit an ortho to get their teeth 'fixed' and they are told about it. That was the case with me and judging from the Facebook group I'm a member of, it's the case with almost everybody. People notice that they or their kids have funny looking teeth so they go to an ortho to get it sorted out and they're in complete shock when they're told there's a surgery for this and that's pretty much the only solution. When I told my family as an adult that there's this thing out there and I'm thinking of getting it, they were pretty shocked. They're educated people, yet have never heard of jaw surgery before. So it's very unlikely that most people would even try to go straight to a surgeon instead of approaching an ortho first.

Yes. Not knowing the existence of dental docs who cut the face bones and re-arrange things is also a factor. Some orthos will convey the existence of such. Others won't.
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