Author Topic: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?  (Read 8572 times)

SV123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: 0
PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« on: June 14, 2024, 07:22:55 AM »
My surgeon cancelled my fully-paid cosmetic surgery 3 days before the actual surgery date as he did not see mentally fit for the procedure. Am I entitled to a full refund?

My surgeon cancelled my fully-paid cosmetic surgery 3 days before the actual surgery date as he did not see mentally fit for the procedure.

Should I get a full refund despite signing a contract beforehand saying that 'cancellations or no show' get no refund 7 days prior to surgery date, although this did not explicitly mention anything about the surgeon cancelling the surgery.

Also, I was meant to get implants installed and so they probably have been manufactured already. Would I get a refund for those too? I am honestly s**tting myself right now

I paid 65k AUD (including implant material + 3 days hospital stay) for this, I am praying to god I get it back

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2024, 03:43:24 PM »
As to cancelling things, when I was looking back into your past posts and my responses, I noticed, some of your prior entries along with mine were cancelled as in GONE/deleted. It was a string where the surgeon's displacement read-out chart differed vastly from what he conveyed to you verbally. I have no idea why that was removed. But just to say, I was awaiting to hear the reason he told you some of your displacements were far in excess of those found on your chart.

I don't know who your surgeon is. You don't say. I just know there is one surgeon in Australia who would be the type to feel threatened at one of his patients getting on here and asking questions.Thing is he got suspended and isn't in practice anymore.

I take it that you mean that he cancelled because HE didn't feel mentally fit or was it that he didn't think you were?

Either way, if you didn't cancel and he did, ETHICALLY, he should offer a refund and you should report him to the ethics board. Like to engage a patient in a contract where the doctor can OPT OUT yet KEEP your money is ethically questionable.  Legally is different and in venue of 'Breach of Contract'. So, a lawyer is needed to seek out in that regard.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

SV123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: 0
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2024, 01:58:15 AM »
can I please PM you for advice? I do not want this to be public

BTW the surgeon thought that I, not him, was mentally unfit for surgery

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2024, 10:11:31 AM »
Sorry. No PMs for private advice. When I respond to an open public post, it isn't an invitation to advise privately. On the contrary, when someone makes an open post for help, the assumption is that they are inviting open help from a variety of people.

Since you don't want this to be public, it gives the message to others, including myself, that you're NOT inviting open help in the public venue. So, your constraints here position me to opt out of this topic matter. However, they don't preclude others from PMing you now that you've clarified the venues (private vs public) the help you get is limited to.

The private venues that seem to be most applicable to your question are ethical and legal as would apply to surgeons in Australia and AFTER it's established that you actually ASKED the doctor for a refund and he refused.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

SV123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: 0
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2024, 04:44:10 AM »
Ok I understand. I am just really stressed out about the 'refund' meeting I will have next week. The surgeon is based in Europe by the way, I am just originally from Australia.

I know that I will get a refund for the surgical fees since no surgery was performed. I am just stressed out about the possibility of not getting the 3 day hospital stay cost refunded, which was already paid by the surgeon to a seperate clinic prior, and also not getting the manufactured implant cost refunded. In total, these are 1/3 of the total I paid, which is A LOT and it is hard to bear the thought of losing it.  :'(

GJ

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1493
  • Karma: 215
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2024, 07:56:57 AM »
can I please PM you for advice? I do not want this to be public

BTW the surgeon thought that I, not him, was mentally unfit for surgery

You can make a small donation to join the private forum, as an option. There's no guarantee things there won't be shared, but it's more curated and selective who gets in, so it's less likely.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

GJ

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1493
  • Karma: 215
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2024, 07:58:51 AM »
Either way, if you didn't cancel and he did, ETHICALLY, he should offer a refund and you should report him to the ethics board. Like to engage a patient in a contract where the doctor can OPT OUT yet KEEP your money is ethically questionable.  Legally is different and in venue of 'Breach of Contract'. So, a lawyer is needed to seek out in that regard.

This is what I think, too.

The patient didn't lie about their medical history or anything. The doctor just didn't like a plan being shared, and he jumped to all types of conclusions that lead himself to cancel it. 100% refund in order, and if they don't give that, I'd take them to court.
Millimeters are miles on the face.

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2024, 02:38:43 PM »
This is what I think, too.

The patient didn't lie about their medical history or anything. The doctor just didn't like a plan being shared, and he jumped to all types of conclusions that lead himself to cancel it. 100% refund in order, and if they don't give that, I'd take them to court.

Yes.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2024, 02:49:12 PM »
Ok I understand. I am just really stressed out about the 'refund' meeting I will have next week. The surgeon is based in Europe by the way, I am just originally from Australia.

I know that I will get a refund for the surgical fees since no surgery was performed. I am just stressed out about the possibility of not getting the 3 day hospital stay cost refunded, which was already paid by the surgeon to a seperate clinic prior, and also not getting the manufactured implant cost refunded. In total, these are 1/3 of the total I paid, which is A LOT and it is hard to bear the thought of losing it.  :'(

Same deal if guy is in Europe. Will depend on laws and ethical codes doctors are bound by in that area and if his actions and/or his 'reactions' to anything you did, were out of bounds. So, all hinges on whether or not he REFUSES to refund, his grounds of refusal and whether or not his grounds were legitimate. There are LOADS of facts and circumstances associated with that. But again, they would be in the venues of law and/or ethics and therefore professionals who are very conversant in those venues.

I understand the anxiety of (potential) financial loss. But YOU first have to establish yourself by asking the party who was the recipient of your funds (the doctor). If he refuses any refund, then time to get a lawyer.

Now, I'm going to ask you some questions that I think you could answer openly without violating your privacy or the doctor's. However, you don't need to. But you should be able to identify (in your own head) which questions relate to your interaction/contract with the doctor. All the questions relate to the doctor possibly engaging you in some type of GAG ORDER type contract and whether or not there were questionable clauses in it or questionable demands he made of you that a lawyer could challenge IF you didn't get a refund. But, of course, first you have to FIND OUT if he gives you a refund and IF he doesn't, what his grounds were.

 The questions are in the venue of contract lawyers, type to pursue IF you don't get a refund.

1: Does the reason for your needing 'privacy' have more to do with the DOCTOR'S need for privacy than yours? Like does it have something to do with a 'GAG ORDER' being drafted in your contract. Is there anything in your written contract that says something to the effect that anything you could say about him/your experience with him in an open venue (such as this one or other types like this) will become 'HIS' copyright? Like does he make a claim that your 'freedom of speech' won't be yours anymore because you have assigned him copyright to it? Is there anything in your contract that in some way conveys that future surgery with him is some kind of 'secret' and you're not allowed to discuss anything about it in any open venue where people getting similar types of surgeries congregate? Do you feel that the doctor was somehow 'punishing' you for doing so? Do you feel that he made any demands on you regarding what you could say and couldn't say or where you could or could not talk about your upcoming surgery that infringed on your basic rights to do so? Does anything in the contract he got you to sign (or his verbal explanation of what it meant) actually PRECLUDE you from participating on open venues about maxfax type surgery?

2: Have you shared any documents, such as surgical plans, that on them say something like: 'Copyright (intellectual property) of Dr. so and so, not to be shared without permission'...anything like that? Like he could claim they were his intellectual property or copyright, in which case the protocol is to request you remove them. But when you do remove them, you basically fulfilled any obligation to take them down. Like that alone might not be grounds to cancel your surgery AND not give you a refund.

3: A doctor can cancel a surgery if he feels you/a patient would be 'unhappy' with the outcome or not 'emotionally or physically ready', lacked capacity to follow pre or post surgical instructions...etc. Usually stuff that would relate to your own good. However with stuff in cosmetic surgery venue, they can cancel for lack of rapport/cooperation. There can be a cancel fee with that. But there's got to be some code of ethics or law that doctors are bound by to preclude them from keeping all your money if they cancel. If not, it would be very LUCRATIVE for unethical doctors to collect advanced fees and scam patients out of their money on the basis on some 'contract violation', especially so if there was some questionable contingency within it. For example: 'Oh, you exercised your right to free speech on a message board in violation of my copyright to your free speech that prevents you from exercising it on message board.'

4: When he cancelled your surgery so abruptly, did he also formally sever the doctor patient relationship so you're not his patient anymore and won't be in the future. Like did he give anything in writing explaining why he was ending the doctor/patient relationship? Did he help you find another doctor? Could you have found another doctor in that short span of time? Do, you feel his conduct caused you emotional harm? For example, a lawyer (or the ethics board) would want to look at the ethics of a doctor severing the doctor/patient relationship so abruptly with no formal written explanation of WHY and especially so if he doesn't give you some refund.

5: Claim that you are MENTALLY UNFIT. If he claims you are mentally unfit and that becomes the basis for his not giving you your money back, than you would have also been mentally unfit to sign a contract with him in the first place. Mentally unfit is not too far from signing a contract under duress in which case makes the contract unenforceable. Like you could be mentally unfit or unsound mind. But that would not bind you to financial penalties imposed by his contract. It would void them.

DISCLOSURE: I am NOT a lawyer. I just have a social history of being in close surrounds and having lawyer 'buddies' who were top professors at Harvard Law. I'm not giving you legal advice. I'm just suggesting what type of lawyer (contract law) IF the guy doesn't give you your money back. Basically, if the doctor claims YOU 'violated' your contract and 'that's why' he refuses some refund, maybe you didn't violate it at all. Like maybe you just violated some illegitimate clauses in it that you're not really bound to abide by or maybe you are mentally unfit to engage in a contract which would tend to void any financial forfeit on your part regarding money he wants to keep for himself and not give back to you.

Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

SV123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: 0
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2024, 12:25:14 AM »
Thank you kavan and GJ for the responses. I am finally feeling alright after getting a call from the surgeon aha

So I will get a refund of around 32k CHF compared to the 39k CHF I paid since I got planning done, hospital booking and also the scans. I think this is fair since these services were already provided.

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2024, 02:22:45 PM »
Thank you kavan and GJ for the responses. I am finally feeling alright after getting a call from the surgeon aha

So I will get a refund of around 32k CHF compared to the 39k CHF I paid since I got planning done, hospital booking and also the scans. I think this is fair since these services were already provided.

Did this doctor 'De-Leter' who scours message boards threatening patients to delete their surgery plans also have you sign a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) not to name him in X-change for getting your money back? If so, you still could get a lawyer on the grounds he deemed you 'Mentally Unfit' which you could use as grounds to VOID any obligation to not name him.

ETA:  You should get more of it back, especially if he owns an interest in the company that plans and makes the implants and also charged you a booking fee for the hospital you never stayed in.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 02:37:19 PM by kavan »
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

SV123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: 0
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2024, 06:02:58 AM »
I got 34.8k chf back. I am happy with that.

The doctor said it was just because I lied, not that I uploaded my plan online, that triggered the cancellation.

Luckily, the doctor is a good man

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2024, 09:20:33 AM »
I got 34.8k chf back. I am happy with that.

The doctor said it was just because I lied, not that I uploaded my plan online, that triggered the cancellation.

Luckily, the doctor is a good man

Well, you didn't answer the question as to whether you had to sign a Gag Order/NDA in order to get your money back. He's a man who saw all your posts and responses to them and the potential he could be taken to court if he he didn't give you your money back. So,seeing you had a card to play if he didn't doesn't make him a 'good man'. You're lucky you didn't get botched and have a gag order on you not to talk about it in the process of seeking help/information.

Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.

SV123

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
  • Karma: 0
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2024, 09:37:00 AM »
No I didn't sign an NDA. I only signed the pre-surgical contract which I showed you earlier, nothing more.

kavan

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4029
  • Karma: 426
Re: PLEASE HELP! Can I get refund for cancelled surgery?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2024, 09:57:36 AM »
No I didn't sign an NDA. I only signed the pre-surgical contract which I showed you earlier, nothing more.

You didn't show me any pre-surgical contract. So, if you are going to lie to me on behalf of this doctor, I won't be giving you any help in the future.
Please. No PMs for private advice. Board issues only.