jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: Schrödingers Jaw on November 29, 2015, 09:20:32 AM
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For men the brow is an underrated area I feel, easily forgotten and yet it has a large impact on how handsome a man is percieved.
Dr Eppley performs forehead augmentation but what really caught my eye is the custom brow implant procedure:
(http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Custom-Forehead-Implant-result-side-view-Dr-Barry-Eppley-Indianapolis-300x231.jpg)
(http://exploreplasticsurgery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Custom-Forehead-Implant-result-oblique-view-Dr-Barry-Eppley-Indianapolis.jpg)
http://www.eppleyplasticsurgery.com/browlift.html
Quite the difference but there is more to a handsome brow than just protrusion and size. Enter the glabella:
(http://medicine.academic.ru/pictures/medicine/657.jpg)
(https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/222/flashcards/1764222/jpg/glabella_of_the_frontal_bone_21352502371202.jpg)
(https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/674/flashcards/1803674/jpg/glabella-1414657886F516E8855.jpg)
A small part of the skull, not connected to muscles or nerves thus easily augmentable in theory at least. It has a big impact on the entire eye area, in fact many very handsome men has a pronounced glabella. Now I know we dislike unrealistic images of models but please bear with me as I try to prove my point:
(http://az725705.vo.msecnd.net/media/9092/stephen_james_17_juan_martin_tablet.jpg)
Notice the prominent glabella right where his nose meets his brow? It is projected in all dimensions, forward, lateral and up. it looks striking doesn't it?
Another example of a comic artist no less:
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/910c-xZVV3A/maxresdefault.jpg)
Notice how his eyebrows are positively angled much like the previous model and his nose bridge and brow form a protruding structure that almost shields his eyes.
My question is if there are any procedures that can augment this area, is it possible to do so with your own bone and could this kind of natural projection be achieved?
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Hey SJ can you explain the physiology of this based on my eyes? Please don't copy and paste my images anyone.
It's just I don't have those model sort of eyes, but I always thought I had a prominent brow ridge. I might be wrong since Sinn said my eyes look close together cause of something about the shape of my orbits or something like that. Maybe you could just clarify this for me so then I can request a more specific procedure. Obviously my lower orbits are very shallow.
I'm sorry, I can't say for sure. You would need to take an x-ray and speak to someone more knowledgeable than me. Your eyes seem close-set and relatively rounded as opposed narrow which unfortunately isn't ideal. If I had to guess why i would say that your eye structure is too narrow horizontally and too vertically long, if that's the case I'm afraid it is unfixable. Mostly it is your lower orbital wall (maxilla and zygo) that seem, well, I won't say retruded but not very prominent. Your orbital seem to have a weak or negative vector as seen from the profile:
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c3/7d/4d/c37d4db7f9e9011ab7c4de44678d086b.jpg)
This indicates weak undereye support and possible some kind of maxillary deficiency. I've kind of have the same problem so when I settle on a solution I'll let you know.
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So Sinn said technically my eyes are not close set at all they just look that way due to shape.
I think I know the solution. Have an aggressive lefort III/orbital-malar rim advancement, moving the bun up and out a bit. Possibly some HA paste to augment as well. Then have a lateral canthopexy as well as some HA paste to the upper contour of the brow ridge. Shape changed and VOILA!!!!
How does this sound to you Shrodinger?
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So Sinn said technically my eyes are not close set at all they just look that way due to shape.
I think I know the solution. Have an aggressive lefort III/orbital-malar rim advancement, moving the bun up and out a bit. Possibly some HA paste to augment as well. Then have a lateral canthopexy as well as some HA paste to the upper contour of the brow ridge. Shape changed and VOILA!!!!
How does this sound to you Shrodinger?
Sounds invasive to me but I would be lying if I said the thought hadn't occured to me as well. Now the questions are:
-Is it safe (enough)?
-Cost and location?
-Who would be willing and able to perform the surgery on a non-deformed cosmetic patient?
Perhaps you ave some insight on these issues Lazlo?
A successful lefort iii would benefit me quite a bit as my orbitals and anterior zygomatic region lack forward projection. It makes my face drop, it has made my eyes irritated and wrinkled since birth and I'm sick of it.
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Yes there are a couple of doctors.
They've done it before.
Seems relatively safe.
Cost is around 10 grand (I think).
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Yes there are a couple of doctors.
They've done it before.
Seems relatively safe.
Cost is around 10 grand (I think).
Pm me some info man my lateral orbital rims are taunting me in the mirror every morning.
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Come on, I want the collective intelligence of this forum to give me more advice on how to "fix" my eyes and make them more "model" like. Right now I'm contemplate lateral canthopexy PLUS orbital rim advancement and possible HA paste to the upper brow ridge. What say you all?????
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Come on, I want the collective intelligence of this forum to give me more advice on how to "fix" my eyes and make them more "model" like. Right now I'm contemplate lateral canthopexy PLUS orbital rim advancement and possible HA paste to the upper brow ridge. What say you all?????
Nobody's gonna do a canthopexy on younger people. It fails critically after some time. Maybe a canthoplasty, much more invasive and not a huge change compared to a -pexy, but it's lasting.
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Nobody's gonna do a canthopexy on younger people. It fails critically after some time. Maybe a canthoplasty, much more invasive and not a huge change compared to a -pexy, but it's lasting.
what do you make of this? http://www.dryaremchuk.com/lateral-canthopexy-and-the-youthful-eye-dr.-yaremchuk-best-plastic-surgeon-boston
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what do you make of this? http://www.dryaremchuk.com/lateral-canthopexy-and-the-youthful-eye-dr.-yaremchuk-best-plastic-surgeon-boston
Alright, a canthoplasty might not be the right decision and I never said that a canthopexy doesn't deliver nice results. All I said is that it's not done on young people (at least in Europe) since it critically fails after years. :3
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Come on, I want the collective intelligence of this forum to give me more advice on how to "fix" my eyes and make them more "model" like. Right now I'm contemplate lateral canthopexy PLUS orbital rim advancement and possible HA paste to the upper brow ridge. What say you all?????
It depends on what your issue is, are you sure your orbitals are small/too far back?
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Who is the second comic book artist?
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Who is the second comic book artist?
Christopher lovell. Very handsome man
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bump this whole thread no body knows anything here
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Hi Lazlo,
You have nice eyes and good skin tone. Regarding your eyes looking close set,
I have the same issue, but I agree with Sinn, I don't think your eyes are actually close set .
Here's my two cents:
1. Perhaps the width of your bridge could be a bit narrower. It seems slightly out of proportion (too wide) for your face.
2. Your eyebrows could come in further (closer together). They should end over your nostrils. I know that there is not much you can do about that as a man, but I think the short eyebrows are closing in your eyes a bit. What you could do is have your brows professionally groomed/shaped. The eyebrows can make a big difference.
I hope this is the kind of feedback you are looking for. Orbital rim shape is outside my area :). But nothing looks bug eyes or weird to me!
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This thread seems kinda stupid, honestly. Look at most male models (90%+) - they have absolutely no brow ridge whatsoever. NONE. Completely flat foreheads. Also, you have the first image with brow implants and it looks ridiculous as f**k. Totally anatomically incorrect. It's like a weird shelf protruding off his forehead.
If I were really concerned I'd maybe get radiesse injections on the brow ridge to add a tiny, tiny bit of augmentation and perhaps forehead width. But honestly, this s**t makes no difference to your looks I'm sorry.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying recessed supraorbital rims are a non-issue. I'm saying if you don't have recessed orbital rims then a brow ridge or whatever is not going to make you in any way more attractive.
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well it sort of changed into me talking about how to make the eyes a different shape, that's what I want to know. what procedures, brow ridge or not can change that?
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well it sort of changed into me talking about how to make the eyes a different shape, that's what I want to know. what procedures, brow ridge or not can change that?
Modified le fort III MIGHT make some changes. Otherwise canthoplexy is an option.
Box osteotomy would widen eyes.
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This thread seems kinda stupid, honestly. Look at most male models (90%+) - they have absolutely no brow ridge whatsoever. NONE. Completely flat foreheads. Also, you have the first image with brow implants and it looks ridiculous as f**k. Totally anatomically incorrect. It's like a weird shelf protruding off his forehead.
If I were really concerned I'd maybe get radiesse injections on the brow ridge to add a tiny, tiny bit of augmentation and perhaps forehead width. But honestly, this s**t makes no difference to your looks I'm sorry.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying recessed supraorbital rims are a non-issue. I'm saying if you don't have recessed orbital rims then a brow ridge or whatever is not going to make you in any way more attractive.
No I disagree, a strong brow is both masculine and handsome.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v142/that-guy/2012-02-15-nikolaj_coster_waldau-533x355.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a8/12/75/a81275074ffa845adaf2ff84bf039b1e.jpg)
Or for a more extreme example:
(http://malecelebbio.com/gallery/2012/11/Brian-Shimansky-30.jpg)
(http://ftape.com/model/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Brian-Shimansky-The-Model-Wall-FTAPE-03.jpg)
(http://cdn.sheknows.com/articles/2014/10/JULES/Trending/jason-momoa-credit-wenn-res.jpg)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i188/dragonsoul76137/Ronon/closeup5_profile.jpg)
Feel free to photoshop away their brow projection, they'll be considerably less handsome without it.
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You're handpicking attractive people with brow ridges. It means nothing.
Like I said, an overwhelming majority of white males do not have brow ridges just as the overwhelming majority of male models and actors do not (Brad Pitt, for example).
It's not a requisite for good looks. You're simply taking the feature of one good looking person and believing that putting that on yourself will make you more attractive. I don't see that happening.
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Hi Lazlo,
You have nice eyes and good skin tone. Regarding your eyes looking close set,
I have the same issue, but I agree with Sinn, I don't think your eyes are actually close set .
Here's my two cents:
1. Perhaps the width of your bridge could be a bit narrower. It seems slightly out of proportion (too wide) for your face.
2. Your eyebrows could come in further (closer together). They should end over your nostrils. I know that there is not much you can do about that as a man, but I think the short eyebrows are closing in your eyes a bit. What you could do is have your brows professionally groomed/shaped. The eyebrows can make a big difference.
I hope this is the kind of feedback you are looking for. Orbital rim shape is outside my area :). But nothing looks bug eyes or weird to me!
Thanks Meeshi! xoxoxo Yes this is all good advice. Actually I had stupidly shaved my eyebrows recently which made them shorter. Now they're growing out. but I will definitely get them professionally shaped soon! And then I hope Sinn's work can fix them. I'm totally up for any HA paste shaping he can do.
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I think Shrodinger's jaw has a point. Optimistic you are not helpful on this, you need to analyze and give advice.
Yes, with an augmented brow ridge, orbital rim advancement and canthopexy this can be fixed to the ideal masculine shape!! WOOOOOHOOOOOO! Houston we have liftoff!
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well then what makes the eye shape???? What??>????????
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You're handpicking attractive people with brow ridges. It means nothing.
Like I said, an overwhelming majority of white males do not have brow ridges just as the overwhelming majority of male models and actors do not (Brad Pitt, for example).
It's not a requisite for good looks. You're simply taking the feature of one good looking person and believing that putting that on yourself will make you more attractive. I don't see that happening.
Think what you will I suppose but just because it is not essential doesn't mean it is not beneficial.
Jake Gyllenhaal and Ryan Gosling are considered handsome even though they have eye assymetry, does that mean eye symmetry "means nothing"?
(http://boongoo.com/data/photo/jake-gyllenhaal/Jake-Gyllenhaal-5.jpg)
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150410125034-ryan-gosling-super-169.jpg)
Prominent brow is a so called "dimorphic" trait corresponding with testosterone. I can't really be bothered to dig up the studies but I would bet money it has been scienteifically proven to correlate with percieved attractivness.
Here's just from wiki:
Studies have shown that ovulating heterosexual women prefer faces with masculine traits associated with increased exposure to testosterone during key developmental stages, such as a broad forehead, relatively longer lower face, prominent chin and brow, chiseled jaw and defined cheekbones.
I really thought this was common knowledge, but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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I think Shrodinger's jaw has a point. Optimistic you are not helpful on this, you need to analyze and give advice.
Yes, with an augmented brow ridge, orbital rim advancement and canthopexy this can be fixed to the ideal masculine shape!! WOOOOOHOOOOOO! Houston we have liftoff!
I don't feel there is much to analyse. Some extremely attractive people have one, others don't. Many also consider brow ridges to be a neanderthal feature.
Like what do you think you're gonna do? Brow ridge augmentation almost always raises the eyebrows (just see the results). They also look fake and ridiculous. It's also generally difficult to augment given the nature of skin in that area. Then you have issues with the only viable materials for augmentation have a higher shatter rate, bone erosion, shifting etc.
This s**t is skull-implant tier pants on fire retarded. Again, if your supraorbital ridge is not recessed then leave it.
Brow ridges aren't even visible from the frontal view, so again, it's stupid. The effect of a naturally strong supraorbital ridge (low-set eyebrows etc) can't be achieved surgically. And say we were to shave down the brow ridges of attractive people with prominent ones... not a single one will be rated worse by any male or female. It's such an inconsequential feature as far as looks is concerned, even more so given that it can't actually be replicated surgically.
Finally, and I suppose I mentioned this slightly before: faces come in packages. People with brow ridges probably have a generally more robust appearance that will enable them to wear it. If you're some pear shaped potato with weak features then adding a brow ridge isn't going to gel.
Actually most of these dudes have the perfect features and would look better without such an over-exaggerated browridge. Just my 2 cents. Certainly the last guy looks way too overprojected in the brows. If you cover up that area, he looks very good since he has nice features. It is not the browridge that makes these dudes look good, on the contrary.
Pretty much this. I know some will say this is worthless but I've asked a number of female friends once and they all universally HATED brow ridges.
Sure, there could be some subconscious effects going on whereby the supposedly 'dimorphic' nature of brow ridges is really attractive to them and they don't know it, but really, just whatever...
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Think what you will I suppose but just because it is not essential doesn't mean it is not beneficial.
Prominent brow is a so called "dimorphic" trait corresponding with testosterone. I can't really be bothered to dig up the studies but I would bet money it has been scienteifically proven to correlate with percieved attractivness.
Here's just from wiki:
I really thought this was common knowledge, but I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
It's very easy to do. Take people you think are attractive and who have brow ridges, then photoshop them to reduce that. Then we'll look at those images and determine who looks any different, let alone better or worse.
This is sluthate-tier mental masturbation and honestly a waste of time. If you want to focus on minor details about appearance worry about things like labiomental folds, zygomatc arches, and upper eyelid fat - things that will actually improve how you look.
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Okay disregarding Optimistic who can just shut up if he doesn't want to contribute.
I want to know how this man has this eye shape. He has the perfect eye shape and perfect cheekbones. Are the fact that his cheekbones are high contributing to the narrow eyeshape as well as the brow. oR is it simply the shape of his lids/orbits? Can we somehow reverse engineer or deconstruct this?
Please give advice.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Okay disregarding Optimistic who can just shut up if he doesn't want to contribute.
I want to know how this man has this eye shape. He has the perfect eye shape and perfect cheekbones. Are the fact that his cheekbones are high contributing to the narrow eyeshape as well as the brow. oR is it simply the shape of his lids/orbits? Can we somehow reverse engineer or deconstruct this?
Please give advice.
I literally stated in relative detail why I disagree with it, as well as why it's not a feasible option. Moreover, this thread is called "BROW BONE / UPPER EYE AREA". Please humour me how your post about eye shape and cheekbones somehow contributes to this thread more than my post...
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who cares, just answer my question someone.
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who cares, just answer my question someone.
About 95 % of all people have a traditional frontal sinus as part of their lower forehead brow area. The male projection of the
the frontal sinus occurs in virtually every male and typically extends well beyond the projection of almost any normal female.
So the frontal projection at the brow area in all of the pictures recently posted is actually pretty typical for males verses females.
I think the details of the contour of the frontal projection are different - - and that likely does affect the perception of "attractive" verses "less attractive".
Impression:
From your pictures you posted earlier - - the extent of your brow area projection is pretty normal. The *contour* of your brow area 'projection' is somewhat "atypical" compared to some of those pictures.
And keep in mind that I may have only a minimal understanding of what I am talking about!
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About 95 % of all people have a traditional frontal sinus as part of their lower forehead brow area. The male projection of the
the frontal sinus occurs in virtually every male and typically extends well beyond the projection of almost any normal female.
So the frontal projection at the brow area in all of the pictures recently posted is actually pretty typical for males verses females.
I think the details of the contour of the frontal projection are different - - and that likely does affect the perception of "attractive" verses "less attractive".
Impression:
From your pictures you posted earlier - - the extent of your brow area projection is pretty normal. The *contour* of your brow area 'projection' is somewhat "atypical" compared to some of those pictures.
And keep in mind that I may have only a minimal understanding of what I am talking about!
Okay well I'm gonna stop worrying about this now and just show these pictures to sinn and ask him to make it so.
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also i just want to say here's a recent pic of brad pitt and there is no way he doesn't get fillers. look at how full his face and key areas are!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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To say the brow ridge is unimportant is absurd, it has a strong effect on how DOM you perceive someone to be (sluthate lingo for a moment), and generally comes hand in hand with big chins and jaws. It makes the entire eye area look more masculine.
Now you see my point. You're on a freaking jaw surgery forum, man :D We're recessed as f**k with potato bone structures. Throwing a brow ridge on that will be idiosyncratic as f**k. Nevermind the original pictures show a brow ridge that looks more like a neanderthal shelf jutting out.
There's also a potentially huge point everyone is missing - forehead shape and angle. Just because there is a step-off between the brow ridge and forehead doesn't mean someone has or hasn't got a strong brow ridges. For example, plenty of men have more vertical foreheads yet simultaneously a decent brow ridge which gives them low eyebrows and nice eyes. That is the part that is attractive and important! Heck, I looked at a picture and Brad Pitt probably falls directly into that category. Try morphing a brow ridge onto him and he looks utterly ridiculous without first making the forehead more slanted.
So now we get into the position of needing to shave down forehead bone in addition to brow ridge bone. I spoke to a number of surgeons about this very thing and it is possible to do, however, seriously, it's so f**king stupid and inconsequential I can't imagine a single person having the motivation to do it. Plus you'd weaken your forehead to an unknown degree.
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About 95 % of all people have a traditional frontal sinus as part of their lower forehead brow area. The male projection of the
the frontal sinus occurs in virtually every male and typically extends well beyond the projection of almost any normal female.
So the frontal projection at the brow area in all of the pictures recently posted is actually pretty typical for males verses females.
I think the details of the contour of the frontal projection are different - - and that likely does affect the perception of "attractive" verses "less attractive".
Impression:
From your pictures you posted earlier - - the extent of your brow area projection is pretty normal. The *contour* of your brow area 'projection' is somewhat "atypical" compared to some of those pictures.
And keep in mind that I may have only a minimal understanding of what I am talking about!
when you say "atypical" i understand you mean different from the attractive norm, but could you express and indicate exactly how my shape is atypical and where I need augmentation or change? thanks.
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Any kind of brow ridge augmentation would make the eyes look deeper, smaller and more close set.
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Any kind of brow ridge augmentation would make the eyes look deeper, smaller and more close set.
ugh smaller and deeper I don't mind since I have big eyes, but close set no way.
You've been researching this meshi, what do you recommend???
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Any kind of brow ridge augmentation would make the eyes look deeper, smaller and more close set.
Please share your knowledg Meeshi, I really need to know how to make my eyes look better and more wide-set.
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also i just want to say here's a recent pic of brad pitt and there is no way he doesn't get fillers. look at how full his face and key areas are!
Lazlo - - I DNK - - I think it is mostly that he is just putting on weight as he gets older. MAYBE - - he has had some fat grafting. Maybe.
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Brad Pitt has good facial structure. One of the best in hollywood imo. He has a short, forward grown face so naturally soft tissue will look better as he ages. But we can't deny that he doesn't do an sort of procedures since his career is sort of based on his looks.
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Brad Pitt has good facial structure. One of the best in hollywood imo. He has a short, forward grown face so naturally soft tissue will look better as he ages. But we can't deny that he doesn't do an sort of procedures since his career is sort of based on his looks.
I don't think he has an ante face.
On a recent incredibly long flight I saw Benjamin Button. There is a scene where both Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett were both in profile looking at each other. Her chin throat distance looked greater than his.
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also i just want to say here's a recent pic of brad pitt and there is no way he doesn't get fillers. look at how full his face and key areas are!
He is definitely getting fillers! And a lot of them! Honestly, I'm at a bit of a loss regarding making eyes look wider. I think that fat injections to the upper eyelid area can soften the prominent orbits while looking youthful. This is a specialized procedure, but very important imo.
Lazlo,
I think I mentioned to you my doctor recommended a septoplasty and premaxillary implant. I have not been impressed with the before and afters ive seen. I don't understand how earl improve his maxillary projection even though he had a perfect bite.
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One thing I noticed in all the male model photos that has nothing to do with a prominent brow... Look at the short distance between the eye and the eyebrow. i think this is much more important than brow prominence. Another thing I wanted to mention from your post about surgeries, I wonder if the fact that the swelling would not have had time to resolve before the next surgery could impact your results for subsequent surgeries. That is a concern. You're spending a lot of money, might as well go for the best outcome.
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good points meeshi thanks! bump this thread.
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One thing I noticed in all the male model photos that has nothing to do with a prominent brow... Look at the short distance between the eye and the eyebrow. i think this is much more important than brow prominence. Another thing I wanted to mention from your post about surgeries, I wonder if the fact that the swelling would not have had time to resolve before the next surgery could impact your results for subsequent surgeries. That is a concern. You're spending a lot of money, might as well go for the best outcome.
Hooded eyes. Imo even women look better with l lower eye brows. Because predators are more attractive by nature. It's a lot harder to be one so we are hardwired to appreciate them more. More people like cats than rabbits. Wolves are more beautiful than rams, etc..
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For men the brow is an underrated area I feel, easily forgotten and yet it has a large impact on how handsome a man is percieved.
The whole top third of the face is never discussed because there really isn't anyone who does much in that area for safety reasons. But instead, mindless masturbation about how the lower third is the most important part, etc.
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I have a really prominant brow, an ex girlfriend used to refer to it as a 'neanderthal brow'. In certain lighting conditions it almost looks like a weird Klingon deformity. I unfortunately have weak cheekbones and wide but receded jaws, these are much more important variables. I would say brow ridge is low down in order of heirachy.
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I have a really prominant brow, an ex girlfriend used to refer to it as a 'neanderthal brow'. In certain lighting conditions it almost looks like a weird Klingon deformity. I unfortunately have weak cheekbones and wide but receded jaws, these are much more important variables. I would say brow ridge is low down in order of heirachy.
People discuss the frankfurt plane and malocclusion a bit too much than they should IMO. Very few seem to go excessively into changing the SHAPE of bone.
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I have a really prominant brow, an ex girlfriend used to refer to it as a 'neanderthal brow'. In certain lighting conditions it almost looks like a weird Klingon deformity. I unfortunately have weak cheekbones and wide but receded jaws, these are much more important variables. I would say brow ridge is low down in order of heirachy.
The excessive brow ridge could just be a recessive (heavily sloped) forehead.
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The excessive brow ridge could just be a recessive (heavily sloped) forehead.
Example?
For the record, no it doesn't have to be that. And in some cases (such as mine), I have too much anterior projection and its not even either.