Cheapest Alternative to Gunson

[emanresu]

Those in need of a CCW rotation with posterior downgraft are significantly limited in the surgeons they can choose from, as not many perform it. As well, most surgeons performing it are in the US, and if you're not from there, it makes it even more difficult financially, both due to the exchange rate of the USD, as well as not being able to have insurance cover it. (As a Canadian, the abysmal value of our dollar makes the already astronomically high cost of surgery in the US nigh impossible to afford, and on top of that, since you can’t get insurance coverage, the entire thing must be 100% paid out of pocket.)

There are several doctors who are often suggested as alternatives to Gunson, namely Relle, Movahed, Alfaro, and Antipov, due to their ability to perform CCW rotations with a posterior downgraft. I know we are not supposed to explicitly state prices here, but in an attempt to make the situation outlined above (a little) less grim, the question I'm hoping to have answered is: for those who have consulted with all four of theses surgeons, who have you found to be the cheapest?

I’ve already consulted with Relle, and, to me, he seems like a very competent surgeon who absolutely deserves his reputation. However, his prices were still very high, so he's still not a viable option for many prospective patients.

Currently, due to these costs, it seems like I’m going to have to just resort to either a BSSO and spend the rest of my life with a poor bite, or camouflage treatment in the form of a genio and jaw implants. I'm still trying to come to terms with having invasive surgery that I know is inferior to proper treatment, but it seems like the only remaining choice at this point.

Maybe one day someone will discover another competent surgeon operating out of Mexico or Asia or something that we can all go to for pennies, but for now, it would be great to know, among the current “Gunson Alternatives”, which is the most economical.

[kavan]

The planning software (Nemofab or something like that) based on Arnett analysis, some of the top guys use, is out of SPAIN. Track down the software company and ask for a list of doctors using their software. I mean the software is used for planning out a posterior CCW downgraft. So, finding out who uses it, could/would give you some leads.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXzqNNWPhrw&ab_channel=SoftwareNemotecS.L.
Here's doctor Arnett, innovator of the software (retired).  There are probably a lot of young surgeons out there using this software to plan surgeries.

[emanresu]

The planning software (Nemofab or something like that) based on Arnett analysis, some of the top guys use, is out of SPAIN. Track down the software company and ask for a list of doctors using their software. I mean the software is used for planning out a posterior CCW downgraft. So, finding out who uses it, could/would give you some leads.

Hi kavan, hope all is well. That's very interesting. I've found their website here, and you are correct, the software is called NemoFAB. It's developed by NemoTec, and I've sent them an email requesting a list of doctors. I will update if I receive any information of interest.

[GJ]

I think there's a guy in New Hampshire, Charles Henry, who I think took seminars with Arnett or Gunson. I can't remember exactly, but I seem to remember them speaking highly of him. I think that was the name...long time ago. So if you contact Dr. Henry you can ask if he trained under them or took their seminars. It might have been Wolford who he did some training with, though. Again, so long ago I can't remember exactly. Just write the office and ask, and ask their prices. I'd guess much cheaper.

[PloskoPlus]

Taylor in Houston.

[emanresu]

I think there's a guy in New Hampshire, Charles Henry, who I think took seminars with Arnett or Gunson. I can't remember exactly, but I seem to remember them speaking highly of him. I think that was the name...long time ago. So if you contact Dr. Henry you can ask if he trained under them or took their seminars. It might have been Wolford who he did some training with, though. Again, so long ago I can't remember exactly. Just write the office and ask, and ask their prices. I'd guess much cheaper.

Taylor in Houston.

Thanks so much for the responses guys. I'll be looking into both of them.

[Lazlo]

The planning software (Nemofab or something like that) based on Arnett analysis, some of the top guys use, is out of SPAIN. Track down the software company and ask for a list of doctors using their software. I mean the software is used for planning out a posterior CCW downgraft. So, finding out who uses it, could/would give you some leads.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXzqNNWPhrw&ab_channel=SoftwareNemotecS.L.
Here's doctor Arnett, innovator of the software (retired).  There are probably a lot of young surgeons out there using this software to plan surgeries.

great advice Kavan! Does Alfaro use this software?

[kavan]

great advice Kavan! Does Alfaro use this software?

I would assume so since he's out of SPAIN and a key CCW downgraft doc.

[ArtVandelay]

Consider looking at teaching hospitals but be wary. The danger is you run into surgeons who rely on the hospital's reputation to fill their patient pipeline and produce shoddy results (in my opinion Dr. D B from NYP, who you should avoid at all costs, is the canonical example of this). This should be less of a danger now with the internet.

Some surgeons who have publications demonstrating they can perform the complex movements are Dr. Jaime Gateno and Dr. Derek Steinbacher. I'm sure there are more.

Note: I have no problems naming Dr. D B, I just don't want to pollute the search results

[emanresu]

Consider looking at teaching hospitals but be wary. The danger is you run into surgeons who rely on the hospital's reputation to fill their patient pipeline and produce shoddy results (in my opinion Dr. D B from NYP, who you should avoid at all costs, is the canonical example of this). This should be less of a danger now with the internet.

Some surgeons who have publications demonstrating they can perform the complex movements are Dr. Jaime Gateno and Dr. Derek Steinbacher. I'm sure there are more.

Note: I have no problems naming Dr. D B, I just don't want to pollute the search results

Thanks for the leads, I'll be looking into them. The more names we can get out there for CCW rotations w/ posterior downgrafts, the better.

[kavan]

You would have to do some sleuthing as to SYMPOSIUMS and CONFERENCES  the ccw guys or nemo fab might be presenting in or hosting.  The FAB part of nemofab stands for Face Airway and Bite.  See if you can ask the company how many doctors use that software.  It's like if they are using it, most likely it's because they want to do stuff the Arnett way.  See if you can track down Arnett to ask how many doctors use his system.

[kavan]

You would have to do some sleuthing as to SYMPOSIUMS and CONFERENCES  the ccw guys or nemo fab might be presenting in or hosting.  The FAB part of nemofab stands for Face Airway and Bite.  See if you can ask the company how many doctors use that software.  It's like if they are using it, most likely it's because they want to do stuff the Arnett way.  See if you can track down Arnett to ask how many doctors use his system.

Found something mentioning an Antonio D'Agostino (Italy) and from that a FABknowledge website that has some leads as to names of other doctors. https://fabknowledge.com/antonio-dagostino-md/

another link from same website: https://fabknowledge.com/topic/

[DRIVVEN]

Those in need of a CCW rotation with posterior downgraft are significantly limited in the surgeons they can choose from, as not many perform it. As well, most surgeons performing it are in the US, and if you're not from there, it makes it even more difficult financially, both due to the exchange rate of the USD, as well as not being able to have insurance cover it. (As a Canadian, the abysmal value of our dollar makes the already astronomically high cost of surgery in the US nigh impossible to afford, and on top of that, since you can’t get insurance coverage, the entire thing must be 100% paid out of pocket.)

There are several doctors who are often suggested as alternatives to Gunson, namely Relle, Movahed, Alfaro, and Antipov, due to their ability to perform CCW rotations with a posterior downgraft. I know we are not supposed to explicitly state prices here, but in an attempt to make the situation outlined above (a little) less grim, the question I'm hoping to have answered is: for those who have consulted with all four of theses surgeons, who have you found to be the cheapest?

I’ve already consulted with Relle, and, to me, he seems like a very competent surgeon who absolutely deserves his reputation. However, his prices were still very high, so he's still not a viable option for many prospective patients.

Currently, due to these costs, it seems like I’m going to have to just resort to either a BSSO and spend the rest of my life with a poor bite, or camouflage treatment in the form of a genio and jaw implants. I'm still trying to come to terms with having invasive surgery that I know is inferior to proper treatment, but it seems like the only remaining choice at this point.

Maybe one day someone will discover another competent surgeon operating out of Mexico or Asia or something that we can all go to for pennies, but for now, it would be great to know, among the current “Gunson Alternatives”, which is the most economical.

I have consulted with several of these surgeons.  I had my initial surgery with Dr. Gunson.  I recently had surgery to repair the damage from my first surgery by Dr. Steven Sullivan in OKC. https://profilesofs.com/steven-sullivan  IMO, he is as good or better a surgeon than any on that list. Competitive prices.  You should know however that like movahed, he does not follow the Arnett analysis.

[Pipilika]

as I was told by Kavan ,I need a CW rotation with posterior downgraft.
Should I choose a surgeon who use NEMOfab system,?

[DRIVVEN]

as I was told by Kavan ,I need a CW rotation with posterior downgraft.
Should I choose a surgeon who use NEMOfab system,?

I know that several surgeons were performing the surgery you describe before Arnett and before the software was invented. Others may differ in point of view, but in my opinion the the depth, the experience  and execution ability of the surgeon would be top priority to me. My virtual surgery plan from Gunson was made using different software, from 3m.  Maybe there is some magic for specific patients in NemoFab?