Zygomatic Sandwich Osteotomy / Zygomatic Arch Osteotomy (forward vs lateral)

[Optimistic]

This was discussed a bit previously, so I thought it deserved its own thread.

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Here are my own thoughts and questions regarding the ideal cheekbones in men, and how much lateral and forward projection they should have:

Many here seemed to believe that the key to achieving model-like cheekbones was to have plenty of lateral projection of the zygomatic arch. Presumably this would be to improve the facial width height ratio (FwHR). It was claimed that malars that are projected too far forward would appear feminine.

In addition to bringing the malars forward more a ZSO can also raise the position of the malar. Surely this alone would have something of a positive effect regardless of sex.

Many models do seem to have malars that come forward a lot, such as Simon Nessman. I've theorised that this also prevents nasolabial folds from forming. To counter this example would be Brad Pitt who if I recall correctly doesn't have malars that come forward much at all and doesn't have any nasolabial folds. Personally I find ones that come forward a bit to be more attractive. I can't say whether this is objectively the case or not.







So to what degree is this kind of cheekbone actually achievable via surgery (Nessman type)? Provided one has already acceptable malars could surgery give it that edge?

Really hoping falcao can chime in here with some of his wisdom on this topic. I'm trying to understand the relationship between the malars, ageing, and overall male aesthetics.

[Tiny]

There is NO POINT in comparing yourself to models.  NONE.  Do you compare your sprinting ability to Usain Bolt?

I'd sure love to be 5'10" instead of my midgety 5'1" but I am not running around looking for leg bone distraction.  You have to be realistic with what you can achieve with surgery.  Jaw surgery isn't like a rhino or lipo, where you can try and get a revision if it doesn't look quite right.  You pretty much get what you get and that's it.

As someone who's had a bit of PS, yes, you do get improvements and increased confidence, but it's not like your entire life turns around magically overnight.  It's a fallacy to think 'if only I could make my face look like this, then I could do X, Y and Z".  I was like this about weight in my early 20s, always trying to lose that 'last 10 lbs', (I was a curvy 4-6 and wanted to be a 2-4) kidding myself that things would be different and my life would be better if I did.  And then I lost the weight and nothing changed at all.   You will feel great for a few months and then you will just raise your standards for yourself - this is why PS can be addictive

To answer your question, no, I have never seen this kind of cheekbone created via surgery.  There are so few surgeons that do it in the first place which makes it difficult to give a definitive answer or find any examples.  I have seen OK results using paste and believe that theoretically you could get a good result from custom implants with someone like Dr Y.

Also, if you wind up with really bad nasolabial lines at 40 then you can just get a cheek lift (midface lift) if they're bothering you that much.  A much easier surgery than a ZMO or any jaw surgery


In short - do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly

[x]

In short - do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly

I caught the reference 

That song almost changed my life when I heard it. Puts things in perspective.

[overbiter]

That song bores me to tears.

[Tiny]

That song bores me to tears.

In all serious - I have actually stopped buying women's fashion or beauty magazines, but if you spend an hour looking at pictures of airbrushed 16 year olds with the same twig arms and perfect faces, and then go and look at yourself in the mirror, it does make you feel like s**t.  I'm also sick and tired of the beauty industry's lack of diversity...sometimes you see a few south east asian faces (they're "trendy" at the moment) but the dearth of african, latino, middle eastern, indian (etc) faces and bodies....I'm just sick of it.  I won't watch the fashion channel on TV either.   The ironic thing is that I work in fashion.

I got so mad a couple of months ago when a magazine editor rejected a set of our campaign shots and requested alternative pictures because we had used an arabic model and a mixed-race model.  The justification was that 'our Arabic and Asian readers actually aspire to look European'.  It's so stupid when market research actually show that people identify with a product more if that product is displayed on people who look similar to them.   A lot of the other industries in this part of the world use racially ambiguous models.


Anyway, I digress.  My point is that comparing your rowing ability to Sir Steve Redgrave will make you feel s**t at rowing, even if you're actually not that bad at rowing.  Comparing your face to a models will make everyone feel ugly unless they are also a model

[Lazlo]

In all serious - I have actually stopped buying women's fashion or beauty magazines, but if you spend an hour looking at pictures of airbrushed 16 year olds with the same twig arms and perfect faces, and then go and look at yourself in the mirror, it does make you feel like s**t.  I'm also sick and tired of the beauty industry's lack of diversity...sometimes you see a few south east asian faces (they're "trendy" at the moment) but the dearth of african, latino, middle eastern, indian (etc) faces and bodies....I'm just sick of it.  I won't watch the fashion channel on TV either.   The ironic thing is that I work in fashion.

I got so mad a couple of months ago when a magazine editor rejected a set of our campaign shots and requested alternative pictures because we had used an arabic model and a mixed-race model.  The justification was that 'our Arabic and Asian readers actually aspire to look European'.  It's so stupid when market research actually show that people identify with a product more if that product is displayed on people who look similar to them.   A lot of the other industries in this part of the world use racially ambiguous models.


Anyway, I digress.  My point is that comparing your rowing ability to Sir Steve Redgrave will make you feel s**t at rowing, even if you're actually not that bad at rowing.  Comparing your face to a models will make everyone feel ugly unless they are also a model

yeah this is really pathetic and will change. where i live in a fairly multicultural community all the fashion ads for the locale shops have nordic looking aryans in all their advertisements. Maybe 4 percent of the population of women here are 5'10 high cheekboned blondes. Whites will be a minority in about 20 years so it's going to definitely change.

[Optimistic]

There is NO POINT in comparing yourself to models.  NONE.  Do you compare your sprinting ability to Usain Bolt?

I'd sure love to be 5'10" instead of my midgety 5'1" but I am not running around looking for leg bone distraction.  You have to be realistic with what you can achieve with surgery.  Jaw surgery isn't like a rhino or lipo, where you can try and get a revision if it doesn't look quite right.  You pretty much get what you get and that's it.

As someone who's had a bit of PS, yes, you do get improvements and increased confidence, but it's not like your entire life turns around magically overnight.  It's a fallacy to think 'if only I could make my face look like this, then I could do X, Y and Z".  I was like this about weight in my early 20s, always trying to lose that 'last 10 lbs', (I was a curvy 4-6 and wanted to be a 2-4) kidding myself that things would be different and my life would be better if I did.  And then I lost the weight and nothing changed at all.   You will feel great for a few months and then you will just raise your standards for yourself - this is why PS can be addictive

To answer your question, no, I have never seen this kind of cheekbone created via surgery.  There are so few surgeons that do it in the first place which makes it difficult to give a definitive answer or find any examples.  I have seen OK results using paste and believe that theoretically you could get a good result from custom implants with someone like Dr Y.

Also, if you wind up with really bad nasolabial lines at 40 then you can just get a cheek lift (midface lift) if they're bothering you that much.  A much easier surgery than a ZMO or any jaw surgery


In short - do not read beauty magazines, they will only make you feel ugly

I'm not comparing myself to models, I'm just trying to understand the role malars play in ageing and male facial aesthetics. Forward projecting malars don't appear to look feminine and could possibly add support to the face, imo.

I'm still strongly considering get a ZSO with MM. I think I'll make a more definite decision when Falcao comes online again and I can talk with him, and also when I sign up to Miss J's forum to read the case of the botched ZSO by MM on some other guy.

Edit: Aren't nasolabial folds notoriously hard to completely rid via surgery? Anecdotally I've noticed that they're the biggest sign of ageing in both men and women, as well as being one of the few things that can't easily be concealed.

[PloskoPlus]

Off topic: Comparing myself to models is pointless.  Comparing Brad Pitt to models, however, is OK because they make him look like a schlub.  I wonder if the looks gap in men is worse because women can at least use makeup.

Really off topic: To win Miss Universe you need perfect teeth.  You don't need perfect teeth to be a top model.

[PloskoPlus]

When I do a google image search for "Zygomatic Sandwich Osteotomy", the first result is a picture of a trannie.

[Tiny]

I'm still strongly considering get a ZSO with MM. I think I'll make a more definite decision when Falcao comes online again and I can talk with him, and also when I sign up to Miss J's forum to read the case of the botched ZSO by MM on some other guy.

I saw MM today but I didn't get a chance to ask him about the ZSO.  It was in one of the public hospitals in Dubai and there were 4 other people in the room including two trainees and another maxfac surgeon, and I was with him for about 10 minutes only!

What he did say, however, is that he does do mandibular implants - custom made titanium ones made using 3D printing.  It's very expensive but he does do it

In other news, apparently I can get full decomp via orthodontics alone and don't need upper surgery, only lower.   Which is great.  He also said that my upper lip folded inwards and shrunk because of my retroclined incisors and when they get put back in a good position, I will get much better support and the lip will be bigger


 

Edit: Aren't nasolabial folds notoriously hard to completely rid via surgery? Anecdotally I've noticed that they're the biggest sign of ageing in both men and women, as well as being one of the few things that can't easily be concealed.

I've seen pretty good results with a combination of cheek/mid-face lifting, laser treatment, and filler, actually.  I think jowls are much more aging than nasolabial lines

[Lord-of-the-Cartilage]

Why do most of you seem to assume that Weakjawbrah is hoping that this procedure will transform him into a model, or in fact that he's not good looking enough to model in the first place?

Sigh, at present we're conditioned to think if a woman wants pillow lips from fillers or breast implants, that's perfectly rational and almost normal.
A man says he want's to improve his cheekbones akin to male models... WTF    People imply he reads too many fashion magazines and that this isn't a look he should aspire to.

Sorry, maybe the replies struck a nerve because I am interested in the procedure, but I like the male model look of strong sharp cheekbones, angles and concave cheeks. Not because it has been force fed to me through the media, I have always admired those features, is there something wrong with that?

[overbiter]

It's no surprise that most of these puahate style threads come form people who haven't had surgery/never going to have surgery. All this stuff about orbital rims, advancing the mid-face, malar osteotomies, no one who posts about this stuff is really serious. It's just a fantasy to these people. You see the same thing on plastic surgery boards, it's all just obsession

[Optimistic]

It's no surprise that most of these puahate style threads come form people who haven't had surgery/never going to have surgery. All this stuff about orbital rims, advancing the mid-face, malar osteotomies, no one who posts about this stuff is really serious. It's just a fantasy to these people. You see the same thing on plastic surgery boards, it's all just obsession

I don't quite understand the amount of heat I'm getting from this thread. Just because I posted a picture of a model and an actor doesn't mean -I- want to look like that. I used them as two examples of attractive, masculine faces with radically varying degrees of forward projection of the malars (which is why you'll note I tried my best to find two photos taken at the same angle). Moreover I was wanting to understand how this plays into male aesthetics. For example, in another thread we discussed the differences between le forts and ZSO, the s-curve, and whether or not forward projecting malars made a face more feminine. Finally, as you can probably tell I'm curious about this from an ageing perspective as evidenced by my other thread regarding the effects of bone structure on the formation of nasolabial folds.

I'd also like to point out that I am indeed very serious about surgery given the number of consultations I've had with top surgeons now, I have an entire folder full of recommendations, scans, moulds and so forth, I'm actually wearing braces right now that are levelling my dental arches, compacting wisdom teeth as well as a bit of decompensation. I'll most likely be getting TAD's soon too in order to address my maxillary cant.

My surgery is not purely for aesthetic reasons, it's because I have an open bite that made it extremely difficult to eat and started giving me a lisp. It just so happens that since I need to get jaw surgery I might as well try and get the best aesthetic outcome possible. And if that includes other procedures then why not?


/rant

[Optimistic]

I saw MM today but I didn't get a chance to ask him about the ZSO.  It was in one of the public hospitals in Dubai and there were 4 other people in the room including two trainees and another maxfac surgeon, and I was with him for about 10 minutes only!

What he did say, however, is that he does do mandibular implants - custom made titanium ones made using 3D printing.  It's very expensive but he does do it

In other news, apparently I can get full decomp via orthodontics alone and don't need upper surgery, only lower.   Which is great.  He also said that my upper lip folded inwards and shrunk because of my retroclined incisors and when they get put back in a good position, I will get much better support and the lip will be bigger


 
I've seen pretty good results with a combination of cheek/mid-face lifting, laser treatment, and filler, actually.  I think jowls are much more aging than nasolabial lines

Hey, good news about the upper lip! I didn't know you had problems with it actually O.o

MM told me about the titanium implants he does in my last consult with him. Were you able to establish when he thinks implants are necessary? I know he prefers to use HA paste even though a few on here feel it's ineffective. He actually told me that he finds most patients come back to him wanting more HA paste done to further augment the jaw angles, which to me would imply that he feels a large amount of the stuff can be safely and effectively used for cosmetic purposes.

I'd be interested to see where he himself draws the line and would recommend a patient to get implants, or whether he only uses the implants when requested to. Any idea?

I suspect implants would be necessary to achieve the appearance of longer rami and an acuter gonial angle. I'm starting to question my original master plan of distraction, SSRO/IVRO's and BSSO to achieve the most augmented jaw naturally. I'll know more after I've spoken with the Dr from Profilo and then a third time with MM.

[x]

My surgery is not purely for aesthetic reasons, it's because I have an open bite that made it extremely difficult to eat and started giving me a lisp. It just so happens that since I need to get jaw surgery I might as well try and get the best aesthetic outcome possible. And if that includes other procedures then why not?


/rant

I too have an open bite that causes trouble speaking in some respects. Do you know anything more about people's abilities to speak after their open bite is closed?