Most people have no idea what makes them ugly

[Schrödingers Jaw]

Perhaps "ugly" is poor phrasing but figuring out what procedures to get is very hard, the face and the perception of beauty is quite complex after all. I, for example, know that my eye and cheek area is lacking but I have no idea what exactly causes it. Don't know if they're seperate issues or if they have the same undelying cause.

Question is how to find out what the problem is, I want to ask a surgeon but who, and won't they just sell me whatever operation they happen to be profficient at?

Alternatively I could try to learn about anatomy and what makes a person good looking but that's an entire science in it's own right, and how can I be sure I'll get it right?

Many knowledgeable users on this forum, how did you go about finding out what surgeries to get?

I'm not asking about what surgeries to get but rather how to go about finding that out by myself, I'm uncomfortable posting pictures. What's the best way?

[boyo]

Ugly people are basically people with dysmorphic features which are flaws easy to spot. Average people have it far harder. Either way, goodlooking people have tons of facial characteristics in common so mapping good looks isn't really difficult. The real problem is the technology for getting the outlined goals, which is inadequate, imprecise and sluggish. It's soon 2016 and we still can't create human hair, bone and soft tissue which could be transplanted on the patient. It's essentially impossible to go from ugly to goodlooking before this kind of development is achievable.

[Rico]

probably more easy is to learn how to modificate bad genes as an prevention

[kjohnt]

Soft tissues are important, but are mostly a result of age and health.  Once these are gone, it is obviously true that bone structure matters less.  No eighty year old woman will look good, regardless of her chiseled bone structure.  Face lifts, hair transplants, fake tan spray, hair color, etc are really just ways to retain a youthful look.  In the end, we all get old and ugly if we're so lucky to make it that far.  So when talking good looks, it is assumed the soft tissues are good, and talking about these things as though they define good looks isn't accurate.  A guy with great hair, skin and whatever won't look good with a recessed chin, period.  But a bald, pale guy can definitely look good with a solid skull structure. 

Also, I think most plastic surgery disasters are the result of messing with soft tissues, but I digress.

Bone structure, which is the foundation, is the primary factor.  Ugliness occurs when something is deficient in the bone structure, and in rarer cases overgrown (or in the case of the nose needing rhinoplasty).  This is why most the most bang-for-your-buck procedures involve bone restructuring or artificial bone (e.g. chin implant). 

Also note that people who age well have great bone structure.

Look at your chin, jawline, cheeks, forehead, and skull in general.  Compare it to great looking people and you'll be able to see where you fall short if you do.

I will agree most people don't understand why they're ugly, he'll even some on forums such as this one.

[Schrödingers Jaw]

Thanks everyone but I already know what flaws I want to fix. What I'm asking is how do I learn what causes them and what procedures to pursue in order to correct them?

[Bobbit]

Question is how to find out what the problem is, I want to ask a surgeon but who, and won't they just sell me whatever operation they happen to be profficient at?

Alternatively I could try to learn about anatomy and what makes a person good looking but that's an entire science in it's own right, and how can I be sure I'll get it right?

I'm not asking about what surgeries to get but rather how to go about finding that out by myself, I'm uncomfortable posting pictures. What's the best way?

If your personal time is valuable - -  then let me offer a modest suggestion:

1) Find a board certified plastic surgeon who is also trained in jaw surgery and craniofacial surgery. 

2) Pay that surgeon their standard consult fee and the cost of the x-rays;

3) Get a face-to-face in person consult.   Ask questions.

Why ?

1) That surgeon will be able to do ALL of the procedures in the entire tool-kit of surgical procedures for your face.  Therefore,  there is no need to "push" or "sell" one of the particular procedures that someone with a less extensive surgical "tool-kit" would be tempted to try to convince you to accept.

2) Good surgeons charge consult fees to keep "tire kickers"  from coming through their offices.   When you pay the consult fee,  then they know you are serious and will do a serious evaluation.

3) There is simply no way that trying to do a Skype or photo consult will EVER be a substitute for an in person face-to-face live consultation.   2-D is not 3-D. 

Frankly,  there is simply no alternative way for you to get the information you want - -  short of spending years of self-learning - -  than to do the three simple steps described above.

 

[PloskoPlus]

If your personal time is valuable - -  then let me offer a modest suggestion:

1) Find a board certified plastic surgeon who is also trained in jaw surgery and craniofacial surgery. 

2) Pay that surgeon their standard consult fee and the cost of the x-rays;

3) Get a face-to-face in person consult.   Ask questions.

Why ?

1) That surgeon will be able to do ALL of the procedures in the entire tool-kit of surgical procedures for your face.  Therefore,  there is no need to "push" or "sell" one of the particular procedures that someone with a less extensive surgical "tool-kit" would be tempted to try to convince you to accept.

2) Good surgeons charge consult fees to keep "tire kickers"  from coming through their offices.   When you pay the consult fee,  then they know you are serious and will do a serious evaluation.

3) There is simply no way that trying to do a Skype or photo consult will EVER be a substitute for an in person face-to-face live consultation.   2-D is not 3-D. 

Frankly,  there is simply no alternative way for you to get the information you want - -  short of spending years of self-learning - -  than to do the three simple steps described above.

Such surgeons don't exist.

[Bobbit]

Such surgeons don't exist.

Plosko, 

Assuming you were possibly wrong - -  and contrary to your statement - - -  such a surgeon did exist - -  would you then agree that the approach described in the previous message was good advice for the OP to solve his problem?

[Bobbit]

Plosko is right. That summary also does not respect the fact that surgeons are still selling procedures and earn money with their work. They will never be as independent as that summary implies. And each surgeon has his/her own specialism that he/she is very good in. He for one is more likely to promote the procedure in which he is good, even if he can also do another procedure instead. Or he uses a technique that he is good in, whereas another surgeon might use another technique that might work better for your case. Next to that it is never smart to undergo multiple procedures with the same surgeon. You might want to undergo another procedure with another surgeon that is better in that specific procedure whereas the first surgeon is better in the first procedure. This summary is just too simplistic.

I was at a pre-christmas party a  week ago.   Among the guests was a a very good plastic surgeon.  I had a chance to ask some questions about jaw surgery.  He is qualified to do bone work.  But he was quick to tell me that he sends the bone work for his patients out to another surgeon in his city.  That is an example as to why it is simply wrong to think that all surgeons lack the integrity to "know their limitations" or that all surgeons fail to put their patients' best interest on the top of the list of considerations.  Is it sometimes true ?   Sure.  Is it always true? Absolutely not.  The good surgeons are busy enough that they do not need the headaches of trying to do surgery outside their comfort zone.

Also, it is, in my view, almost always ill-advised,  to try to hyper-select different surgeons with different highly special interests to end up doing multiple surgeries at multiple times - -  that should properly be done at one time in one surgery - -  or even by the same surgeon at properly spaced intervals. 

For one thing,  that kind of surgery would likely involve unnecessary anesthesia and it will always greatly increase the hospital costs and recovery times.

More importantly, that kind of  "surgery by committee"  is likely to get the same kind of results as would happen if a "committee of painters"  tried to paint a portrait or a committee of composers tried to write a violin concerto.   

While others may hold a different view, I would certainly prefer to have one well trained and qualified surgeon that was comfortable doing the full range of appropriate procedures that I might possibly need - -  compared to the alternative of traveling around trying to coordinate multiple sequential surgeries with different surgeons in different locations.   

For one thing,  about the first question you would almost certainly get from the second surgeon would be - -  ". . . Why didn't you come to me to get the first surgery,  and why don't you go back to the first surgeon to get the second surgery you are now asking me to perform ?"

If you give the same answer to the second surgeon that you suggested in this post - -   that surgeon might well harbor a suspicion in the back of his or her mind that the patient in his consulting room is likely to be a problematic patient with very unreasonable expectations.  That would not be unreasonable for a surgeon to entertain that thought.

 

[PloskoPlus]

Plosko, 

Assuming you were possibly wrong - -  and contrary to your statement - - -  such a surgeon did exist - -  would you then agree that the approach described in the previous message was good advice for the OP to solve his problem?

Yes.  But in an ideal world none of us would need surgery to begin with.  FWIW, a top max fac I saw, who also happens to do rhinoplasties, admitted his limitations with regards to rhinoplasties (I guess my problem is too big, haha), and that I should see a specialist for that. Whether he would have said that had I not told hime that I saw that specialist the day before, I don't know, although I suspect he would would have said the same.

[Lazlo]

I was at a pre-christmas party a  week ago.   Among the guests was a a very good plastic surgeon.  I had a chance to ask some questions about jaw surgery.  He is qualified to do bone work.  But he was quick to tell me that he sends the bone work for his patients out to another surgeon in his city.  That is an example as to why it is simply wrong to think that all surgeons lack the integrity to "know their limitations" or that all surgeons fail to put their patients' best interest on the top of the list of considerations.  Is it sometimes true ?   Sure.  Is it always true? Absolutely not.  The good surgeons are busy enough that they do not need the headaches of trying to do surgery outside their comfort zone.

Also, it is, in my view, almost always ill-advised,  to try to hyper-select different surgeons with different highly special interests to end up doing multiple surgeries at multiple times - -  that should properly be done at one time in one surgery - -  or even by the same surgeon at properly spaced intervals. 

For one thing,  that kind of surgery would likely involve unnecessary anesthesia and it will always greatly increase the hospital costs and recovery times.

More importantly, that kind of  "surgery by committee"  is likely to get the same kind of results as would happen if a "committee of painters"  tried to paint a portrait or a committee of composers tried to write a violin concerto.   

While others may hold a different view, I would certainly prefer to have one well trained and qualified surgeon that was comfortable doing the full range of appropriate procedures that I might possibly need - -  compared to the alternative of traveling around trying to coordinate multiple sequential surgeries with different surgeons in different locations.   

For one thing,  about the first question you would almost certainly get from the second surgeon would be - -  ". . . Why didn't you come to me to get the first surgery,  and why don't you go back to the first surgeon to get the second surgery you are now asking me to perform ?"

If you give the same answer to the second surgeon that you suggested in this post - -   that surgeon might well harbor a suspicion in the back of his or her mind that the patient in his consulting room is likely to be a problematic patient with very unreasonable expectations.  That would not be unreasonable for a surgeon to entertain that thought.

 

Actually in my experince following other people's operations in great depth over the past several years I have found that people who go in for the all in one approach invariably have much worse results than people who have surgeries done by mutltiple specialists.

You guys should I hope by now know the difference between a craniofacial surgeon and a maxillofacial surgeon. The cranio can do max fac, but not always vice versa. That said, the max fac with a lot of experience can do the jaw surgery lower 2/3rds often much much better than a craniofacial surgeon, even though the latter can do it all.

As with rhinos. Most max facs take these week long seminars in rhinoplasty and may have taken a rhinoplasty course semester long during their medical training. But I would never, ever ever trust ANYONE with a rhino who did not do them EXCLUSIVELY. It's one of the most difficult plastic surgery procedures to get right.

Otoplasty is another procedure that often needs HUGE revisions even though most cosmetic surgeons do them and will say it's an incredibly simple operation. Trust me. Go to the otoplasty forums on makemeheal.com and you will find that MOST are botched.

There was a doctor, Dr. Burt Brent who ONLY did otoplasties and had developed a huge area of specialization and had developed a method that was aesthetically and functionally superb. In fact when some rich Italian tycoon's son was taken hostage for ransom and had his ears cut off, Dr. Burt Brent was flown to Italy to reattach the ears!!!!

His price was around 15 grand for an otoplasty but he was also an award winning sculptor and had 12 month waiting lists for doing otoplasty. I need an otoplasty and would have gone to him, but the poor man was diagnosed with a very severe cancer and though he was in his seventies and still doing surgery every day he was forced to retire a couple years ago.

[PloskoPlus]

My cousin had otoplasty.  Looks pretty good, but the doctor had to do it twice.

[Lazlo]

My cousin had otoplasty.  Looks pretty good, but the doctor had to do it twice.

yeah that makes sense, relapse rates are huge. Have you looked closely at your cousin's scar tissue? That can often be a problem. But also the degree to which the doctor can shape the ear lobes etc. (some don't do anything). Really getting the symmetry right etc. since ears are usually quite assymmetrical and in fact often attached to the sides of your head at different heights.

Seriously, trust me on this, otoplasty is a very very often botched procedure and most people don't talk about it or what they've gone through or had to settle with.

[Schrödingers Jaw]

If your personal time is valuable - -  then let me offer a modest suggestion:

1) Find a board certified plastic surgeon who is also trained in jaw surgery and craniofacial surgery. 

2) Pay that surgeon their standard consult fee and the cost of the x-rays;

3) Get a face-to-face in person consult.   Ask questions.

Why ?

1) That surgeon will be able to do ALL of the procedures in the entire tool-kit of surgical procedures for your face.  Therefore,  there is no need to "push" or "sell" one of the particular procedures that someone with a less extensive surgical "tool-kit" would be tempted to try to convince you to accept.

2) Good surgeons charge consult fees to keep "tire kickers"  from coming through their offices.   When you pay the consult fee,  then they know you are serious and will do a serious evaluation.

3) There is simply no way that trying to do a Skype or photo consult will EVER be a substitute for an in person face-to-face live consultation.   2-D is not 3-D. 

Frankly,  there is simply no alternative way for you to get the information you want - -  short of spending years of self-learning - -  than to do the three simple steps described above.

Splendid, but how would I go about finding an ethical, certified, jack-of-all-trades craniosurgeon that does cosmetic surgery?

[molestrip]

Seriously, trust me on this, otoplasty is a very very often botched procedure and most people don't talk about it or what they've gone through or had to settle with.

Ugh, don't tell me this. My son has a mild-moderate deformity. We were told it could be fixed cheaply and non-invasively with a splint but only within the first week of life. My wife felt it "gave him character". I fought but I lost.