Am I still in crossbite?

[GJ]

"Wait 12 months" - is a standard stalling tactic. 12 months is when his obligation to you runs out. (What a coincidence!) People have revisions within months after surgery.

Correct. A lot of times they just tell you it's okay to make sure the statute of limitations passes. It's possible it is okay, but the photos didn't show that. I'd go get second opinions from people completely unrelated to this guy. Maybe different city, etc. Don't tell them who did the surgery. Just say you're concerned and want an objective opinion.

Agree 5k is nothing for him, but by issuing a refund he might under law be admitting culpability. And he might not want that on his record or reputation. For that reason he might fight it.

If you get a bunch of opinions, they all say something is wrong, etc, get that in writing and show him. See what he says and then go from there.

This isn't legal advice, etc etc -- just my opinion and what I'd do.

[Dogmatix]

Guys I’ll upload photos of my bite taken at my ortho today.

How can I push for a revision when he doesn’t even think there’s a cross bite?

If I get confirmation that it’s still a crossbite and another surgery is needed, I am going to ask him to pay for it (advice from a lawyer I spoke to). This would actually be in be best interests of both parties. $5000 is a drop in the bucket to him, I don’t imagine he’d fight me on it. I just need to tell him that I’ve consulted other orthos and surgeons and they agree with me and that I’d like to pursue my revision elsewhere with a refund of the portion I paid since my bite was simply not fixed (still presumably at this point).

When’s the best time to get a revision, should I get it ASAP or wait?

I'm not sure I follow. Is it your orthodontist you'll hold accountable, and are you going to do the revision at a new surgeon where you want him to pay for it?
I believe the normal procedure would be that the surgeon who messed up also should offer a free revision. Having them pay another surgeon sounds hard, at most a refund.

I heard one patient who had a bsso revision within a month after first surgery I think. But bsso is probably a bit easier.

[PloskoPlus]

What GJ said times 100.

[ODog]

I'm not sure I follow. Is it your orthodontist you'll hold accountable, and are you going to do the revision at a new surgeon where you want him to pay for it?
I believe the normal procedure would be that the surgeon who messed up also should offer a free revision. Having them pay another surgeon sounds hard, at most a refund.

I heard one patient who had a bsso revision within a month after first surgery I think. But bsso is probably a bit easier.

No my orthodontist wouldn’t be held accountable at all. The cost of the patient portion of the surgery here in Canada is only $5000, so that would be the amount he would refund. This would allow me to get a surgery elsewhere with a surgeon I feel comfortable with. How can I trust him to do a revision if he literally thinks there’s nothing to revise? It doesn’t seem like a smart move for either party. Obviously if the least he offers is a revision I’ll take it though.

I know it sounds less likely that’d he’d offer a refund but actually, he may find it more of a nuisance and annoyance to do an operation that he doesn’t think needs to be done, than he would refunding 5 grand.

However, maybe he’s right, I think professional ortho photos of just my bite at multiple angles will help you guys diagnose it better. I’ll post these tmrw hopefully.

[ODog]

What GJ said times 100.

For me the upper jaw healing was a breeze compared to my BSSO and genio. I’d be very comfortable getting another upper jaw surgery since my sensation is back but I’m still recovering feeling in my lower lip.

[ODog]

Correct. A lot of times they just tell you it's okay to make sure the statute of limitations passes. It's possible it is okay, but the photos didn't show that. I'd go get second opinions from people completely unrelated to this guy. Maybe different city, etc. Don't tell them who did the surgery. Just say you're concerned and want an objective opinion.

Agree 5k is nothing for him, but by issuing a refund he might under law be admitting culpability. And he might not want that on his record or reputation. For that reason he might fight it.

If you get a bunch of opinions, they all say something is wrong, etc, get that in writing and show him. See what he says and then go from there.

This isn't legal advice, etc etc -- just my opinion and what I'd do.

Very true. But he doesn’t have a choice if his peers believe the bite was not corrected. It’s either revise or refund. I’m not totally opposed to getting revised by him it’s just I need to hear that he understands the problem. If he can do that, then sure I’ll concede to a revision.

[Dogmatix]

Very true. But he doesn’t have a choice if his peers believe the bite was not corrected. It’s either revise or refund. I’m not totally opposed to getting revised by him it’s just I need to hear that he understands the problem. If he can do that, then sure I’ll concede to a revision.

I don't think it's really about understanding the problem, it's more about wanting to correct it, and of course knowing what the limits are. As I said earlier, I had similar problems with my orthodontist who were brushing things off like it's nothing, I should just wait and see etc. It was first when I had got a second opinion and arranged everything and basically said it's up to him to either help me, or we're done and I'll abandon the treatment, that things that had been impossible before suddenly became possible. I didn't bring in money in my discussion, in my case I think my orthodontist didn't want a patient who've abandoned him on his record in his position. Especially not someone who is not just unhappy, but actually knows that things in the process have not been correct and is going around spreading it. I was so frustrated and confused because everything that was said on this board made perfectly sense, and then stepping into the office at someone who've spent 25 years doing this and do publications says something completely else.

The problem with a surgeon is that you don't have the leverage of cancelling a treatment, the treatment is automatically ended when you wake up. But you could maybe do the same approach with your orthodontist and say that you don't accept if he doesn't help you pushing this and will go somewhere else. A surgeon can brush of a patient more easy than the treating orthodontist. Don't let them finish before you say it's done.

[ODog]

I don't think it's really about understanding the problem, it's more about wanting to correct it, and of course knowing what the limits are. As I said earlier, I had similar problems with my orthodontist who were brushing things off like it's nothing, I should just wait and see etc. It was first when I had got a second opinion and arranged everything and basically said it's up to him to either help me, or we're done and I'll abandon the treatment, that things that had been impossible before suddenly became possible. I didn't bring in money in my discussion, in my case I think my orthodontist didn't want a patient who've abandoned him on his record in his position. Especially not someone who is not just unhappy, but actually knows that things in the process have not been correct and is going around spreading it. I was so frustrated and confused because everything that was said on this board made perfectly sense, and then stepping into the office at someone who've spent 25 years doing this and do publications says something completely else.

The problem with a surgeon is that you don't have the leverage of cancelling a treatment, the treatment is automatically ended when you wake up. But you could maybe do the same approach with your orthodontist and say that you don't accept if he doesn't help you pushing this and will go somewhere else. A surgeon can brush of a patient more easy than the treating orthodontist. Don't let them finish before you say it's done.

I believe I signed a contract with my orthodontist so I believe I’m financially obligated to finish paying for the treatment. Are you saying I should ask him to support my assertions and if not to drop out of treatment? I can’t afford another orthodontist so I’m not sure that’s an option.

[ODog]

My bite Pre-op: https://imgur.com/a/oNMmC1R

2.5 weeks post-op: https://imgur.com/a/63E3U1K

Before-after comparison: https://imgur.com/a/e7cWuJD. I don’t see any difference in my arch width.

[Post bimax]

My bite Pre-op: https://imgur.com/a/oNMmC1R

2.5 weeks post-op: https://imgur.com/a/63E3U1K

To me, the left side of the photo seems to be in better occlusion than the right side.  It's hard to tell though, need more angles to be certain.

[Post bimax]

My bite Pre-op: https://imgur.com/a/oNMmC1R

2.5 weeks post-op: https://imgur.com/a/63E3U1K

Before-after comparison: https://imgur.com/a/e7cWuJD. I don’t see any difference in my arch width.

Also, didn't you have anterior open bite?  The incisor overlap looks exactly the same.

[ODog]

Also, didn't you have anterior open bite?  The incisor overlap looks exactly the same.

I did as you’ve seen in a previous photo. As explained that open bite closed when I switched surgeons and went from Invisalign to braces. The open bite was decompensated initially as seen here: https://imgur.com/a/7gxn3gx

When I asked my ortho why my open bite was reduced as I switched from Invisalign to braces to prepare for surgery with my new surgeon, this was his response:

“When you made the switch to (your new surgeon) he requested braces on the upper - so when you have braces vs. Invisalign it is a little different but ultimately does not affect anything as once again, the teeth were in segments, and the segments can be moved wherever they need.”

[Post bimax]

I did as you’ve seen in a previous photo. As explained that open bite closed when I switched surgeons and went from Invisalign to braces. The open bite was decompensated initially as seen here: https://imgur.com/a/7gxn3gx

When I asked my ortho why my open bite was reduced as I switched from Invisalign to braces to prepare for surgery with my new surgeon, this was his response:

“When you made the switch to (your new surgeon) he requested braces on the upper - so when you have braces vs. Invisalign it is a little different but ultimately does not affect anything as once again, the teeth were in segments, and the segments can be moved wherever they need.”

Okay, I forgot about that pic.  The link doesn't work anymore.  That seems to be a BS explanation considering many surgeons DO decompensate, even in the case of a segmented LF1.  But yes, the bite is virtually unchanged from that view except MAYBE slightly better occlusion on the left side of the pic.  Your case is beyond my understanding to comment further though.  I don't understand what what your surgeon thinks was corrected.

[ODog]

Okay, I forgot about that pic.  The link doesn't work anymore.  That seems to be a BS explanation considering many surgeons DO decompensate, even in the case of a segmented LF1.  But yes, the bite is virtually unchanged from that view except MAYBE slightly better occlusion on the left side of the pic.  Your case is beyond my understanding to comment further though.  I don't understand what what your surgeon thinks was corrected.

Here’s photos from yesterday. I have (blue) spacers under 2 of my top teeth on either side so that I’m occluding properly, so it’s hard to assess my bite here:

https://imgur.com/a/Bau8Hfb

[ODog]

Okay, I forgot about that pic.  The link doesn't work anymore.  That seems to be a BS explanation considering many surgeons DO decompensate, even in the case of a segmented LF1.  But yes, the bite is virtually unchanged from that view except MAYBE slightly better occlusion on the left side of the pic.  Your case is beyond my understanding to comment further though.  I don't understand what what your surgeon thinks was corrected.

I guess the main point of the surgery was the bi-max advancement to improve breathing but I didn’t think that precluded a bite correction. Honestly man I don’t get it either. What makes this so damn aggravating is the lack of straight answers from the professionals I’m working with.