Gunson employees leaving positive reviews for Gunson

[Post bimax]

I must be missing someone, I called the California medical board and she is a PA, a member of the AAPA, not the AASPA—there is indeed a difference in training for a  straight PA and a surgical PA. I had probably more than 30 visits and had no diagnostic input on any occasion—Even on her own linkedin, she does not tout any real surgical experience. https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-heinze-78642876/?locale=de_DE.  She works part time and teaches barre class at Barre3 in Santa Barbara, so its very different than a surgical partner. Is my information wrong?

I don’t know about her specifically, I just assumed she was a surgical PA

[kavan]

I must be missing someone, I called the California medical board and she is a PA, a member of the AAPA, not the AASPA—there is indeed a difference in training for a  straight PA and a surgical PA. I had probably more than 30 visits and had no diagnostic input on any occasion—Even on her own linkedin, she does not tout any real surgical experience. https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-heinze-78642876/?locale=de_DE.  She works part time and teaches barre class at Barre3 in Santa Barbara, so its very different than a surgical partner. Is my information wrong?

As to membership in AAPA vs AASPA:

It would depend on whether or not being a member of one but not the other precluded any assistance during surgery. That is to say, is it contingent she be a member of AASPA to provide any assistance during a surgery?

A cross reference with AAPA.org as to such dependencies yielded the following info:

According to: AAPA.org   https://www.aapa.org/what-is-a-pa/

Scrolling down to the question: 'What do PAs do?', one of the answers is:

'Assist in surgery'

Further cross reference with AASPA.com  https://www.aaspa.com/about-surgical-pas

Scrolling down to Duties & Responsibilities, 2 of the answers are:

'Performs First Assist duties in surgery'

'Performs minor surgical procedures'

Given the first bone of contention of her not being a surgeon herself was addressed, (PAs are not surgeons themselves but are qualified to assist in surgeries), what's 'MISSING' here is WHAT your specific complaint actually is.. as it would relate to any impropriety
of Gunson having this PA 'assist in surgery' ?

a: Does teaching a barre class or only working part time as PA and not actually being his surgical 'PARTNER'*, disqualify her from what PA training qualifies her to do; TO ASSIST IN SURGERY?

* The term 'surgical PARTNER', for all intents and purposes would refer to another SURGEON. eg. Gunson was Arnett's surgical partner

b: Do you have any details as to how the extent of her surgical assistance EXCEEDED her capacities. For example, did she PLAN the surgery or perform a significant part of it?

* If the problem was that you got no specific diagostic imput directly from her, that would be consistent with her NOT exceeding her capacities whereas as AASPAs do interpret diagnostic studies.


c: Is this something where you feel; IF not for her existence, at all, as his PA, your results would have been better?

d: Is there a preponderance of circumstances where patients who have had surgery with Gunson,  when THIS particular PA was in his employment, have had poor outcomes?

So.....WHAT is your specific complaint about his having her as his PA where specifics of such would DIRECTLY relate to any IMPROPRIETY on his part for having her in his employ?

[DRIVVEN]

I am not answering these questions in the public form.  You misunderstood many of my comments. I will say though that the truth will come out about this practice. 

[kavan]

That's OK. We can leave them as rhetorical ones.

[Lefortitude]

She does.

[PloskoPlus]

She does.

Who wouldn't?

[beautyislife]

Well I have surgery coming up with him, so fingers crossed...still full of buyers remorse just thinking about all the other options and possible outcomes.
I will say despite reading this and being very worried and scared, his staff has been nothing but great when it comes to my questions or concerns.

[april]

I will say despite reading this and being very worried and scared, his staff has been nothing but great when it comes to my questions or concerns.

I agree. I've only had a digital consult, but they've been helpful and attentive in answering my questions. Lori especially.

I've not had the same level of attentiveness from any other maxfac offices I've consulted with.

[ben from UK]

Supporting team and website don't say anything about the quality of the surgeon. How nice they are or how quick they respond to your questions: nothing of that is of any importance when it comes to the outcome of the surgery. Qualified assistant that has a very good eye for aestethics: yes, very important. All other things, for example how nice the surgeon is, or how beautiful the building is, may seem very important for patients, but it's a pitfall.

Other things that aren't really important or have almost no value:

- Online reviews (zero importance; many fake reviews; one bad review might kill the reputation of a surgeon while having done many other succesfull procedures).
- Many online articles (that's theory, only practice counts)
- A surgeon talking about his knowledge (everyone can do the talk. You can be a very good talker but a bad surgeon. Technical skills in practice = only thing that counts)
- Online results (surgeons post their best results)

Only hard proof might give clues:

- in office results (ask as many as possible)
- other patients' experience and results
- experience. How much experience does a surgeon have with that specific procedure?
- perfectionism (very difficult to know if a surgeon is a perfectionist, but there are 'certain clues'
- how many patients? Too much patients = less time for you. Too little patients: there might be something wrong?
- how good is his assistant? (We don't know) Does this assistant has to prove himself?

Honesty might sometimes be a factor that's correlated with quality as well.

There are also alot of factors that unfortunately have to do with luck:

- Technical unexpected difficulties during the surgery that hinder the surgeon achieving the 'ideal' result
- A surgeon having a bad day
- Encountering a surgeon during a certain period of his life when he lost his passion

And many other factors of luck.

You might get better results when something is 'at stake' for the surgeon, if he has to prove himself for somekind of reason. The more time someone spends on you, the better the results (usually). That goes for every service. Time = quality for you, time = costs for the surgeon. Are you a special client or just a number?

Money doesn't do the trick. You could offer a surgeon more money, you won't get better results. Money never does the trick. Offering more money is a sign of weakness.

The problem with consumers in general is that they look at all the wrong signs when choosing a service: online reviews (highly manipulated), how nice employees are ('she's treating me nice, it must be a good business'. Really?), the website (superficial stuff, it's very cheap to build a fancy website), the building (there's no correlation between how nice a building looks and the surgeon's skill). All these kind of stupid, superficial stuff.

That being said, there's never any guarantee you get the results you want, even if all signs are good.

[DRIVVEN]

 When you start to look behind the gloss, you see a lot of unimpressive stuff and borderline if not actual fraud. In California, you are not supposed to use the name of dentist that has retired from active practice for more than a year after departure, its been several years and the website (which was actually recently updated) talks about Arnett like he is still operating and available to patients. The website even says he has privileges at Cottage when Arnett does not. Also Jenae posted a review on yelp today.  No disclosure.

[DRIVVEN]

Supporting team and website don't say anything about the quality of the surgeon. How nice they are or how quick they respond to your questions: nothing of that is of any importance when it comes to the outcome of the surgery. Qualified assistant that has a very good eye for aestethics: yes, very important. All other things, for example how nice the surgeon is, or how beautiful the building is, may seem very important for patients, but it's a pitfall.

Other things that aren't really important or have almost no value:

- Online reviews (zero importance; many fake reviews; one bad review might kill the reputation of a surgeon while having done many other succesfull procedures).
- Many online articles (that's theory, only practice counts)
- A surgeon talking about his knowledge (everyone can do the talk. You can be a very good talker but a bad surgeon. Technical skills in practice = only thing that counts)
- Online results (surgeons post their best results)

Only hard proof might give clues:

- in office results (ask as many as possible)
- other patients' experience and results
- experience. How much experience does a surgeon have with that specific procedure?
- perfectionism (very difficult to know if a surgeon is a perfectionist, but there are 'certain clues'
- how many patients? Too much patients = less time for you. Too little patients: there might be something wrong?
- how good is his assistant? (We don't know) Does this assistant has to prove himself?

Honesty might sometimes be a factor that's correlated with quality as well.

There are also alot of factors that unfortunately have to do with luck:

- Technical unexpected difficulties during the surgery that hinder the surgeon achieving the 'ideal' result
- A surgeon having a bad day
- Encountering a surgeon during a certain period of his life when he lost his passion

And many other factors of luck.

You might get better results when something is 'at stake' for the surgeon, if he has to prove himself for somekind of reason. The more time someone spends on you, the better the results (usually). That goes for every service. Time = quality for you, time = costs for the surgeon. Are you a special client or just a number?

Money doesn't do the trick. You could offer a surgeon more money, you won't get better results. Money never does the trick. Offering more money is a sign of weakness.

The problem with consumers in general is that they look at all the wrong signs when choosing a service: online reviews (highly manipulated), how nice employees are ('she's treating me nice, it must be a good business'. Really?), the website (superficial stuff, it's very cheap to build a fancy website), the building (there's no correlation between how nice a building looks and the surgeon's skill). All these kind of stupid, superficial stuff.

That being said, there's never any guarantee you get the results you want, even if all signs are good.

While in the abstract, what you say makes sense. However if someone who is supposed to me one of the best surgeons in the world engages in misleading and or careless claims in glossy marketing, you can be sure that the practice of misleading patients does not stop at the marketing. I am biased of course because i was horribly mislead in addition to having my mandible destroyed by gunson. I am collecting everything and it will all be for public view. (Covers up mistakes and blames outcomes on made up diagnostics—-has an answer for everything, bald face lies to patients) I think it was Dan Rather who once  said that Truth is like sharp stick in the eye.

[DRIVVEN]

I don't think it's specific to her or a reflection of the practice. Having lived in California for over a decade, I can say that's simply the culture and personality. Californians can't seem to get close to one another and be "real" and everything is kept superficial and at arms length. It's weird.

I am from the east coast originally and IMO, the practice is culturally a bit beyond the usual California culture (which i agree with, btw). I met a patient who flew in from Europe for surgery and cancelled her surgery—remarked that the office was like Stepford (for anyone below 40, you probably need to google that) Another patient recently said something similar. I actually had a good working relationship with Gunson, and a lot of trust and faith through what i thought was simply a difficult recovery.  Ironically, I even helped him out—-to address a negative yelp review.  I had this expertise because I had performed legal work for yelp years ago and knew the founder Jeremy Stoppelman and I lectured on the topic in the real estate development industry. Also, i think that it will turn out that he has a serious memory problem and mixes patients up—too much on the plate.

[DRIVVEN]

Lori dosnt do any bone cutting.  Shes mainly just acting as steady hands for holding tools, and most importantly, an aesthetic eye. 

My experience with Jenae has been the opposite, she was a few months post op when I met her and she has always been friendly and helpful. 

As to Gunson not being in this position without arnett, sure thats probably true.  I wouldent be an engineer if it wasnt for my 11th grade physics teacher.  As clinical practices like engineering or surgery progress, the skills get passed down and improved on.  I do wish Arnett was still assisting surgeries though.



My Experience with the office for the most part is positive.  They helped me find an ortho, helped me interpret my sleep study results (public healthcare docs are useless) and always answer my questions as best they can.

I will say that all this has scared me from booking surgery.  Luckily im not in braces so I have time to research and let things unfold.

Here is he question you need to ask yourself, if you paying 60-80k for surgery and what showed up on my bill as an assistant surgeon, in the event that something goes wrong, would you not not expect a trained (even if young surgeon or star fellow) experienced second set of eyes and hands right there along side Gunson as opposed to someone who can steady a tool and look at the aesthetics of things at surgery?  Also, it would have been nice to have a surgical partner to review my case and give guidance or at least input with all the post op complications. I even asked if we could meet with Arnett to review my case....that was right before he terminated me as a patient.

[Dogmatix]

To me, from where i sit now, the whole practice is  like a Hollywood movie set.  When you start to look behind the gloss, you see a lot of unimpressive stuff and borderline if not actual fraud. In California, you are not supposed to use the name of dentist that has retired from active practice for more than a year after departure, its been several years and the website (which was actually recently updated) talks about Arnett like he is still operating and available to patients. The website even says he has privileges at Cottage when Arnett does not. Also Jenae posted a review on yelp today.  No disclosure. I reported it.

This is how the world works these days. Everyone have Instagram accounts and Facebook pages where everything looks so easy and 100% perfect results. We have this technology, look at this result etc. Same as when you look at anyone's Instagram account, no ones life corresponds to how they portray it in social media.

If you start reading up on all of this and understand what these procedures really are and what it means to be a surgeon, you also realise it's really not that glamorous. Firstly, it's not that a surgeon is a superman and that no one else could learn or understand what they do. Like Kavan use to say, it all mostly resolves to basic geometry. It surely takes practise and experience to become an expert, but so does a lot of professions. I'd say with the level of interest and knowledge of some people on this board, they could pick up the practical parts pretty fast and become good surgeons or orthodontists. Interest makes better professionals than education.

[Post bimax]

Like Kavan use to say, it all mostly resolves to basic geometry.

DOES say, with regularity.

If you can wrap your head around the basic movements and rotations, you’re better off than 90% of patients. Basic trig will get you far when it comes to JS.