jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Emotional Support => Topic started by: academiannut on May 28, 2019, 07:54:57 PM
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Sister got all teary with me on facetime at the loss of my old face. Her words - I quote - she misses my “sharkish smile”.
I don’t know how to feel. I hated a lot about my face but there was a perky cuteness I liked at certain angles. Now I probably look better but I’m still struggling not to feel self-conscious and sad. Maybe I killed what was unique in my face. I would really like to stop thinking about my face at all.
I’ve seen so many people post in anguish on here and their pics shoe they look fine and its all in their heads. Wondering if BDD is more common than its thought to be. After all, who doesn’t feel that sinking awful feeling at a bad haircut? We all get so focused and upset about minor things with our appearance when we don’t need to. No one else notices or cares. That’s the freedom if we can believe it and know it.
I mean my jaws were out of the norm enough to qualify for a 100,000 surgery, and ya know what? I looked fine. In person, at angles, I was cute. Sure, My pics looked odd dead on with an untutored smile. But I knew how to angle my face to make it cute and I did. And I’ll do the same with this new face and it will look better in a few months with swelling and what not gone. There will still be asymmetries and things.
There were before and I didn’t even notice.
My real goal is to be free of being self-conscious about how I look. I never have been, ever.
And now, post surgery, I’m realizing I didn’t need to be then and I don’t need to be now.
Think I’ll go meditate.
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My suggestion is to immerse yourself in something you love doing.
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Unless you get an objectively better result in every regard, there’s a good chance of feeling like this.
My old face had some quirks and unique features that I no longer have. We may not realize it, but these quirks become a part of our identity and we learn to live with them. After surgery, we have a new face with new things we like and new things we wish were different. That’s jarring.
For those of us that got minor improvements or some improvements and some drawbacks, we should take comfort in the fact that we look better ‘on balance’. That’s definitely true in your case. I still find myself regretting my surgery some days but, in those moments I’m forgetting all the things I didn’t like about my old face. Nostalgia goggles are very powerful.
I’m not saying to not pursue further improvements if that’s your wish, but your experience is very normal.
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My suggestion is to immerse yourself in something you love doing.
I started a new hobby around the time I got braces and prepared for surgery. Around the time I saw Wolford I started to get good at it. Had I not, I would've had a revision by now.
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Unless you get an objectively better result in every regard, there’s a good chance of feeling like this.
My old face had some quirks and unique features that I no longer have. We may not realize it, but these quirks become a part of our identity and we learn to live with them. After surgery, we have a new face with new things we like and new things we wish were different. That’s jarring.
For those of us that got minor improvements or some improvements and some drawbacks, we should take comfort in the fact that we look better ‘on balance’. That’s definitely true in your case. I still find myself regretting my surgery some days but, in those moments I’m forgetting all the things I didn’t like about my old face. Nostalgia goggles are very powerful.
I’m not saying to not pursue further improvements if that’s your wish, but your experience is very normal.
At my first visit I asked my surgeon whether it's worth going through it all given the risks and the expense only to potentially end up looking different, but not better.. He weaseled that looks are subjective. In the end he got tired of my questioning and barked "at least you'll have a good bite!". I should have taken it as proof that he was nothing but a glorified dentist. Instead I projected my own (fairly realistic, IMO) expectations on him. He did write to my GP that I asked a lot of "perceptive aesthetic questions"... I'd rather the fat f**k had never operated on me in the first place.
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At my first visit I asked my surgeon whether it's worth going through it all given the risks and the expense only to potentially end up looking different, but not better.. He weaseled that looks are subjective. In the end he got tired of my questioning and barked "at least you'll have a good bite!". I should have taken it as proof that he was nothing but a glorified dentist. Instead I projected my own (fairly realistic, IMO) expectations on him. He did write to my GP that I asked a lot of "perceptive aesthetic questions"... I'd rather the fat f**k had never operated on me in the first place.
Well, yes. But your case is different than hers. She looks better “on balance” whereas you utterly despise your result for justified reasons. Our problems are similar so I feel your pain. Shaving my face is still a traumatic experience for me. But I’m still grateful for the ‘face space’ I gained and the extra space under my jaw. My comment is tailored to those that can see an aesthetic upside to their result despite their reservations.
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As to your header question; 'do we all have bdd?', the answer is NO
There are some people who are actually traumatized by certain aspects of their appearance. Could be a number of things. The trauma comes in when other people MAKE FUN of their appearance and or ostracize them and if not for people doing that (usually kids/teens at school or total strangers pointing at them and laughing). If not for others making them miserable because of their appearance, they probably would not have noticed or had issues with it. You've heard the phrase; 'A face only a mother can love'. It's like that for them. When they are HOME, they are ACCEPTED. But when they are not home in their loving environment, other people make them hyper conscious of their appearance and might call them 'ugly'. So, when they get those things fixed, it gives them RELIEF from others traumatizing them for it.
Now that type of psyche trauma depends on the social group or circle and usually happens to kids, teens but has impact on later development and sense of self if they don't fix what they are given grief for having. If the social circle is one where parents teach kids to be accepting of others and/or NOT MAKE FUN of the appearance of others or just one where brains, personality and education are more important than LOOKS such that their 'looks are over looked'. So people from those kind of social environments won't be traumatized by their appearance because the trauma comes in when OTHERS REJECT them on that alone and that is fortunately absent from their social environment. Hence, they become more accepting, themselves, for features/appearance/looks that they could be tormented for having in other social environments. The more 'disadvantaged' the social group, the less likely they are to be brought up with 'niceties' or politeness and the meaner they can be.
We have a member of this board, 'Earl' who was traumatized by kids always making fun of his face. When he got a boat load of surgery to address everyone of his many aesthetic problems, he was RELIEVED to look NORMAL.
BDD is basically when a person traumatizes THEMSELVES for some MINOR imperfection that no one else notices or calls negative attention to. They MAGNIFY some aspect of their appearance way beyond objective assessment of it being normal and spend most of their time doing that. People who look FINE to OTHERS (in real life) as they are. They get surgery and the surgery never 'fixes' the flaw. It can't because the flaw is IN THEIR HEAD.
Then there is another type of BDD that can actually be INFLICTED in some cyberspace places such as message boards that GLORIFY models. In that situation perfectly normal looking people who would not be downgraded in real life for their looks are told just how low ranking they are on the scale of looks because the standard is based on MODELS. So, they get traumatized by others on those type of websites for not looking like a model and hence start to traumatize themselves for that. It's a form of BDD because it often results in a LOT of surgeries to 'look like a model' where that is hardly ever achieved and they inflict misery on themselves due to that.
THe other psyche problem is LOCUS OF IDENTITY. It's when people IDENTIFY with aspects of their appearance that would not be considered attractive but for which people in their social group were accepting of and due to not being made fun of or traumatized for having them, they learn to have more self acceptance and hence identify with them as being part of their 'uniqueness. The hall mark of LOI is when someone is made more objectively attractive or has some 'unattractive' feature corrected and BEMOANS the LOSS of that feature. There was a member on here who was made very handsome by his maxfax surgery, given a perfect smile and other corrections that elicited a 'WOW!'. Yet, he spent most of his time on board whining and crying that it didn't matter that this made him so much better looking because the new smile was not 'his' smile and the handsome face was not 'his face'. So, LOI is when there is improvement in the eyes of others (usually when the others are strangers looking at before vs after) but the person has become 'attached' to features others (usually others who are not family members) either might not find attractive or not want on their own faces.
So, of those 2, you might have LOI. But that's a GOOD thing at this stage because you still have some features that are unique to you such as the nose and some vestiges of the original chin that you, on some level might have identified with as 'being you'. Perhaps they would be missed by you or those close to you if you had surgery to change them. In that way, you can SAVE a LOT of $$ and spare yourself from missing them if you DON'T have surgery to change them.
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I'm not sure what qualifies someone for BDD, but I can say that I think it's effectively impossible to not lose your mind while consulting and deciding for jaw surgery. It's such a complex field and you're dealing with a procedure that have the potential of altering your face significantly. If you haven't looked closely at your face before, you'll definitely start doing it. If you're already self contious about some things you might get concerned that they wont understand how you see it and will screw things up even more. This combined with how little fact you normally get about these procedures from the professionals in this field and the only thing you ever get back when asking something is the echo "you have to trust us". And then I haven't even started on the medical concerns and about getting the bite and everything else right in all of this.
I think BDD is my least concern in this. It would actually not be a bad idea to have a therapist employed next to each surgeon who can deal with all of this emotional stress so the surgeon can focus on the surgery.
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It would actually not be a bad idea to have a therapist employed next to each surgeon who can deal with all of this emotional stress so the surgeon can focus on the surgery.
I've mentioned this in the past, and it's a good idea in theory, but the therapist would just become corrupt and back everything the surgeon does. That might make someone more messed up. Best to just find one on your own.
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I've mentioned this in the past, and it's a good idea in theory, but the therapist would just become corrupt and back everything the surgeon does. That might make someone more messed up. Best to just find one on your own.
Yes, but the problem I have with that is that the therapist keeps telling me she doesn't know anything about jaw surgery and can't discuss it in a way that makes sense :). You basically want someone who can be a filter and answer the general questions and let the relevant get through, and also enough knowledge to discuss what the answers really mean.
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Yeah, I'd strongly encourage anyone doing this to have lots of mental support in place.
It's a really strong feeling of lack of control - once you decide, while you're recovering, you don't have a choice in all these changes happening to you. I'm very frustrated that I practically begged my surgeon to reduce my chin prior to surgery - we had long talks about how I thought my chin was too prominent and I wanted it shorter. But the reality is he never considered altering his plans (to lengthen my chin) for a second based on my concerns, and I knew he was a very good surgeon (I still think that) so I decided to go with it and hope for the best.
But sure enough, my chin is the weirdest looking part of my face at the moment. I'll probably just adjust to it over time. Maybe I'll do botox or a revision genio later on. But I'm going to try to find a female surgeon if I ever do that, because I think the odds that they'd actually hear my concerns and respond to them would be higher . . . .
Anyway - I think if it were not something I'd tried to control, and failed to have an impact on, it wouldn't be as frustrating. But the reality is you're very out of control in this process in a lot of ways, and that leads to stress.
I also think this field need more women. I've consulted with 2 female orthodontists and I would change to them in a heartbeat if I could. I actually think they're less knowledgeable than my current. But it was so much easier talking to them. They listened, responded etc. All you really want is to make sure you're being heard and that what matters to you is being considered. It's really a team work and the purpose of the entire treatment is to help the patient. The male professionals are more confident they're doing the right thing, but doing the right thing doesn't help the patient very much if they don't understand it.
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Yeah my doc's primary concern was "winning" his point, not listening to me. So now that I have these weird prominent notches on the sides of my chin, he says he sees nothing and won't even discuss means to mask or fix it if it doesn't blend in over time.
He sounds nice.
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I also struggle with body image constantly and I know it makes absolutely no sense but I feel I look different in every picture . There are good mirrors and insanely bad ones; it's funny how your day could have been going swimmingly well (you even have a little Spring in your step !) And then you encounter a 'bad' mirror and the day is irretrievably ruined
Also I wanted to share a longform article I came across, sorry if this is not the right place to post this https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html (https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html)
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Well that was a disturbing read....
Something far worse is going on there.
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Eppley sure got a lot of love in that one
But I do not believe for a second he doesn't know what an incel is
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I'm a recessed dork, and I've had more attractive girlfriends than many "male model" types (these guys are usually gay, for one, but other issues such as femininity in a man). I wonder how I'd fit in the incel theology.
I think athletes get more women than models. Models are feminine, and girls over 18 rarely want to date female looking guys. I have a theory that young girls like feminine guys because they're not yet mentally ready for sex and a feminine guy is safe. After 18 or so they want a neutral or masculine guy, in general.
Anyway, ugly people can date attractive women if they're funny, interesting, not desperate (most important maybe), etc. Money isn't as big an issue as people think. The big problem is when you're unattractive and possess no good personality traits. Then you're truly doomed.
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And this paragraph in particular really resonated with me because I feel the same way ! I know it's not normal to feel this way but it rang very true. All that lead up to the surgery , that dopamine rush, that sense of immense possibility and hope. This is very conflicting because I feel really sad that I identify so much with the below
Ps- academicnut I am sorry to have hijacked your thread
"My self-image fluctuates all the time,” he wrote on the forum as he waited. “I want to live in a plastic surgeon’s office. I just want to have a bed in one of his labs. Just a bed, a small kitchen, and an internet connection. I want to feel pure within my body and self-validate by looking in the mirror and seeing the flawless skull. When detecting a tiny deformity, I call the surgeon and he’ll be there immediately, along with his assistant and a knife in his hand to cut me open.”
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Sounds like self-loathing/hatred and letting society (which is extremely insecure, as a whole) dictate worth.
Anyone making fun of another person has zero self-worth and they're resolving that dissonance by taking it out on another person. And/or they are secretely insecure about that person. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can move above those people, who make up the majority. People fail by expecting validation from external sources.
Eppely cashing in on insecurity is an unfortunate byproduct. The guy should only be fixing true congenital deformities.
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The part that got me was there was this one surgeon in the article that says he turns away patients he thinks may have bdd but then he refers them to eppley? I am having trouble squaring that in my head
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The part that got me was there was this one surgeon in the article that says he turns away patients he thinks may have bdd but then he refers them to eppley? I am having trouble squaring that in my head
It sounds like he doesn't want to deal with potential fallout. So he sends them to Eppley, who maybe doesn't care about any fallout. The original guy probably gets a kickback for the referral. That's my guess. Though, who knows.
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I didn't read most of the article. Just browsed it. I might read it tonight. Does it mention how "incels" also love Jordan Peterson?
What is weird is they never take any of his advice and actually live it.
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I wonder how I'd fit in the incel theology.
I've done a bit of research in on this, and you don't seem like you fit any definition of 'incel'. It has sorta taken on a pejorative though of 'hateful misogynist'. The root is just 'involuntarily celibate', which in itself is dubious, as only a very small percentage of people would fit this definition. I think all of this just encompasses our desire to understand beauty, attraction, and just broadly biology - and any insight or frustration that entails. Boys and young men especially seem to get very frustrated with sex, and this probably makes up the majority of people who fit the 'hateful misogynist' label many people on the internet are so adamant to throw around.
I don't know what you look like, but I don't think I'd be surprised about your dating life based on your temperament in here. I agree with many of your points, but just to play devil's advocate here, saying ugly people can attract beautiful people is like saying poor people can become rich. They can and they do, but there's a supply and demand problem, and it's all based on a huge array of variables we can't possibly fully understand with our current minds. Statistically fewer ugly people will get with attractive people simply because of the starting point, their chemical balance, upbringing, or trauma associated with their self image. But, things we can't see externally are also very important, and much more difficult to understand. You just play your hand and hope for the best.
I think this topic touches on a very interesting subject. As people gain more knowledge and become more critical, perhaps some amount of BDD and narcissism inevitably develop. As we've seen with social media, being able to compare yourself with anyone in the world has obvious consequences to our mental health. But, perhaps this also puts pressure on finding a solution to beauty and health and putting an end to the genetic lottery aspect of life we're all so used to. Then, changing your appearance would just be as normal as what you wear - which would create a host of new questions about what we derive meaning from.
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Nope he doesn't get a mention at all but of course they did all the other honorary name drops like mewing
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This
I think fundamentally the Incel mindset is a defeatist deterministic one but like all things in life, we must resist the temptation to simplify. This actually distills to the nature Vs nurture question and as much as how things play out cannot be entirely pre ordained , given that we are dealt such different decks and have such starkly different starting points， it would also be remiss to think we can have a level playing field by simply trying our best and putting in every effort possible to even things out. We cannot deny privilege when it obviously exists and confers obvious benefits on the individuals fortunate enough to be bestowed such attributes
But at the end of the day , you simply do what you can and let the chips land where they may
I think all of this just encompasses our desire to understand I agree with many of your points, but just to play devil's advocate here, saying ugly people can attract beautiful people is like saying poor people can become rich. They can and they do, but there's a supply and demand problem, and it's all based on a huge array of variables we can't possibly fully understand with our current minds. Statistically fewer ugly people will get with attractive people simply because of the starting point, their chemical balance, upbringing, or trauma associated with their self image. But, things we can't see externally are also very important, and much more difficult to understand. You just play your hand and hope for the best.
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saying ugly people can attract beautiful people is like saying poor people can become rich. They can and they do, but there's a supply and demand problem, and it's all based on a huge array of variables we can't possibly fully understand with our current minds.
For sure. It's easy to say something, hard to do it. But I know hanging out on sluthate, etc and whining about your looks while insulting others is never going to attract an attractive female. And by an attractive female I mean physically and personality. I require both and put emphasis on the latter, and even with my recessed jaws, have rejected physically attractive females who had terrible personalities. They were always surprised and would actually chase me even harder. It was then I learned and figured this all out. Everyone is insecure. Even the attractive people. They just have insecurity over some other issue (or maybe it's their desire to continue to feel attractive. Fading beauty hurts and is inevitable, and it hurts to see yourself changing). Overcoming that is difficult. Like right now I'm in the process of going grey, and it's painful to see every day more and more. Now it's in my beard, etc. I have to accept all that. Using products or seeing doctors isn't the answer. I'm still insecure like everyone else, but by acknowledging it and understanding the causes you actually learn self-acceptance, which is calming, and at that point it's somewhat easier to ignore it. Overcoming the mental aspect becomes an interesting challenge, and the relief from winning that battle and accepting your reality is sensed by others as confidence.
But yeah, your point is correct. There will be losers. You just don't want to skew your odds toward that camp with self-sabotage, whining, moping, and hanging out on forums like sluthate, etc -- all are self-sabotage. You jump above all those guys simply by not going down that path. From there it's a matter of understanding self, others, motivations, that everyone is insecure, etc. Then you jump above another group. At that point you can compete with anyone for anybody, IMO. A lot of this is mental. If you do all the mental stuff and still lose, you very likely have a deep personality issue (sociopath, psychopath, etc). To me these people are the only people who should be losers. The physical disadvantage is just that, but it's not a death wish, and it can be overcome if you're insightful.
But, perhaps this also puts pressure on finding a solution to beauty and health and putting an end to the genetic lottery aspect of life we're all so used to. Then, changing your appearance would just be as normal as what you wear - which would create a host of new questions about what we derive meaning from.
Well you need unattractive people for relativity. If everyone is attractive then nobody is attractive. The reason attractiveness is prized is it's rare.
That rarity is a genetic cue for mating. People would be really disappointed in their offspring if they mate with one of these fake "attractive" people...and that wouldn't end well for anyone involved. But, that could be where we're headed. Again, I wish people would cut it off at the source of the problem, which is mostly mental.
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As people gain more knowledge and become more critical, perhaps some amount of BDD and narcissism inevitably develop.
This is probably true. Before surgery, I thought my face was basically 'normal', and that JS could correct my functional issues and even have a chance to make me look better. Now I have insecurities about my face because I feel I look a bit 'abnormal', even if some say it was an improvement overall. I could have gone my whole life without knowing the significance of a nasolabial angle or what the f**k an anterior nasal spine is. But here I am. On the one hand, I'm glad I know a lot more so I can make more informed decisions about these things going forward. On the other, it's in my head now.
As far as incels go, most of them are forgetting that guys can drastically increase their physical attractiveness by changing their bodies. Putting on 20 lbs of lean muscle mass is going to get you laid (if that's your goal) way more than f**king cheek implants unless you are legitimately deformed.
I do think the incel problem is actually more about not being desired rather than lack of sex, which is a more sympathetic position. I can almost guarantee most of them would rather be lusted after and never have sex than have sex all the time with women who don't desire them. After all, prostitutes are cheap in most countries and many are quite good looking. But that won't solve their problem.
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For sure. It's easy to say something, hard to do it. But I know hanging out on sluthate, etc and whining about your looks while insulting others is never going to attract an attractive female. And by an attractive female I mean physically and personality. I require both and put emphasis on the latter, and even with my recessed jaws, have rejected physically attractive females who had terrible personalities. They were always surprised and would actually chase me even harder. It was then I learned and figured this all out. Everyone is insecure. Even the attractive people. They just have insecurity over some other issue (or maybe it's their desire to continue to feel attractive. Fading beauty hurts and is inevitable, and it hurts to see yourself changing). Overcoming that is difficult. Like right now I'm in the process of going grey, and it's painful to see every day more and more. Now it's in my beard, etc. I have to accept all that. Using products or seeing doctors isn't the answer. I'm still insecure like everyone else, but by acknowledging it and understanding the causes you actually learn self-acceptance, which is calming, and at that point it's somewhat easier to ignore it. Overcoming the mental aspect becomes an interesting challenge, and the relief from winning that battle and accepting it is sensed by others as confidence.
But yeah, your point is correct. There will be losers. You just don't want to skew your odds toward that camp with self-sabotage, and whining, moping, hanging out on forums like sluthate, etc are all self-sabotage. You jump above all those guys simply by not going down that path. From there it's a matter of understanding self, others, motivations, that everyone is insecure, etc. Then you jump above another group. At that point you can compete with anyone for anybody, IMO. A lot of this is mental. The physical disadvantage is just that, but it's not a death wish, and it can be overcome if you're insightful.
Well you need unattractive people for relativity. If everyone is attractive then nobody is attractive. The reason attractiveness is prized is it's rare.
That rarity is a genetic cue for mating. People would be really disappointed in their offspring if they mate with one of these fake "attractive" people...and that wouldn't end well for anyone involved. But, that could be where we're headed. Again, I wish people would cut it off at the source of the problem, which is mostly mental.
This is good stuff here. I agree, there are a ton of people who mentally have given up and resorted to self sabotage essentially. Being hateful and bitter is not a productive mindset.
I see a bit of hypocrisy here though, and hopefully you won't be offended. You want someone attractive both physically and in personality, which I would say everyone would want (within a range of subjectivity). Physical attractiveness is mostly a indicator of good health and therefore SHOULD be desired. For instance, I've had bad allergies growing up, which affected my appearance as well as my personality (being tired). I've done well I think given this, but it's like a weight on my shoulders that I would opt out of if I could. Acknowledging that millimeters of bone has some impact on our perceptions of each other (atleast initially), is a good reason to want to eventually get rid of it - it serves no purpose long term other than to harden us. Right now it's just something we endure and hopefully persevere. Personality is a truly mysterious thing on the other hand, and possibly even more subjective - and a certain amount of hardship actually creates an ideal personality and a tolerable human being imo.
Your ideas about beauty being relativistic and rarity being the true value are spot on, and I'd say hopefully something else will become the rare thing we seek. Perhaps we'd enrich ourselves and our personalities. Or possibly the natural variance and subjectivity will fill that void. If not, we may just end up living out some sort of weird personal simulations (dystopia?). In this vein though, I think a very interesting idea would be simulations to test our hypotheses. Take the hateful misogynist and put him in a model body and see what happens, or conversely take the model who says 'just smile' and give him a severely recessed jaw. I'm not implying the answer with either of these examples btw, I genuinely would be interested in what happened. I suspect the true outcome of this after enough mixing and matching would be very tolerant and enlightened people.
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I see a bit of hypocrisy here though, and hopefully you won't be offended. You want someone attractive both physically and in personality, which I would say everyone would want (within a range of subjectivity).
No, I'm not offended, and if I have cognitive dissonance that I don't realize then it's good to point it out.
Are you saying the hypocrisy is that I'm not attractive yet I want someone who is? Well, I am with someone, and she thinks I'm attractive. I think I'm fine...like a 5 or 6. But she thinks I'm a 10. So I'm not sure it's a hypocrisy. Also, everyone has their own taste and standards. A 10 for me will be a 5 for someone else. Etc.
That kind of thing gets complicated. When I say I want someone who has both physical and personality beauty, I mean on my own scale not an objective scale a doctor would use. Sometimes the personality will make the person look better. Many times, actually.
Now I'm wondering if I were a 1 if I'd feel the same...maybe not. So I kind of get the desperation that some people have.
Your ideas about beauty being relativistic and rarity being the true value are spot on, and I'd say hopefully something else will become the rare thing we seek. Perhaps we'd enrich ourselves and our personalities.
That would be a positive for humanity if excellent personality traits and values became the rare and desired trait.
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No, I'm not offended, and if I have cognitive dissonance that I don't realize then it's good to point it out.
Are you saying the hypocrisy is that I'm not attractive yet I want someone who is? Well, I am with someone, and she thinks I'm attractive. I think I'm fine...like a 5 or 6. But she thinks I'm a 10. So I'm not sure it's a hypocrisy. Also, everyone has their own taste and standards. A 10 for me will be a 5 for someone else. Etc.
That kind of thing gets complicated. When I say I want someone who has both physical and personality beauty, I mean on my own scale not an objective scale a doctor would use. Sometimes the personality will make the person look better. Many times, actually.
Now I'm wondering if I were a 1 if I'd feel the same...maybe not. So I kind of get the desperation that some people have.
Yeah no, the hypocrisy wasn't about your appearance, which only you know between the two of us. You could think you're a dork, but objectively be pretty attractive to other people. I was mainly referring to desiring physically attractive people (irrespective of your own looks). I think this is pretty universal, and most people would want this and what if someone doesn't have it? That's an interesting question about what would happen if your looks score was lowered (let's assume a single number summarizing someone's attractiveness isn't highly problematic in this experiment). Maybe even one point in this high oversimplified scenario would make a big difference? Maybe that's all the separates most people, are a bunch of slightly different variables all having their influence. Or maybe in your case you'd persevere given a large change. It would be fascinating to see and I think about this a lot.
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Yeah no, the hypocrisy wasn't about your appearance, which only you know between the two of us. You could think you're a dork, but objectively be pretty attractive to other people. I was mainly referring to desiring physically attractive people (irrespective of your own looks). I think this is pretty universal, and most people would want this and what if someone doesn't have it? That's an interesting question about what would happen if your looks score was lowered (let's assume a single number summarizing someone's attractiveness isn't highly problematic in this experiment). Maybe even one point in this high oversimplified scenario would make a big difference? Maybe that's all the separates most people, are a bunch of slightly different variables all having their influence. Or maybe in your case you'd persevere given a large change. It would be fascinating to see and I think about this a lot.
If I were a 3 I'd probably be more inclined to hang out on sluthate, et al. But I really hope I'd fight that urge and have enough sense to know that's not a healthy path.
It's hard to imagine. But as I age and grey, etc, my score lowers, so maybe I'll find out soon enough!
By the way, maybe I'm a weirdo, but say I'm a 5 and a girl is a 5...if she's into me, she suddenly becomes much higher. What I'm trying to say is, attraction is a bit of a positive feedback loop. If a girl likes you she's instantly more attractive, assuming no major personality issues, etc. E.g. In high school my friends and I were in a weird group...kind of dorks but also played sports and got invited to parties, etc. Well, I'd see all types of dynamics. My friends and I lusted after the cheerleaders and in our minds we made them unattainable, but in reality we were most excited when we got wind that some girl in "our league" was into us. Reason being that girl was actually attainable, and that made her attractive. It's for this dynamic I find girls I walk past on the street on a daily basis more attractive than super models, and it's by a long shot. Is this abnormal? I like living in reality.
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These incels could drastically increase their attractiveness by not being a bunch of whiny entitled misogynists. They seem to be full of so much anger and have HATRED for women. I was disgusted and quite frankly frightened reading some of the quotes and thoughts in that article.
I thought the guys in their before photos looked better compared to those morphs.Then I realized what thoughts must be in their heads and it turned me right off.
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These incels could drastically increase their attractiveness by not being a bunch of whiny entitled misogynists. They seem to be full of so much anger and have HATRED for women. I was disgusted and quite frankly frightened reading some of the quotes and thoughts in that article.
I thought the guys in their before photos looked better compared to those morphs.Then I realized what thoughts must be in their heads and it turned me right off.
I find even the mere publication of this article problematic - it's like writing a piece on flatearthers (and putting it on the front page even). This almost feels like a hit piece, that is inadvertently giving them more attention than they deserve. Is it trying to scare people? Create an enemy? Or worse, create a broad stereotype?
The global issue here is mental health, of which seems originating from the modern culture of social media. This is what the talking points should be around, not some small group of radical people. Just based on what reddit feeds me, suicide rates are up (especially in girls 10-14), virginity rates of late teens/20s and mental health are rising (though with mental health, perhaps part of this is that people seek help more now). Increased social isolation creates people who are less able to identify with others and exacerbates all of these issues.
This article is just trying to stir up disgust.
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For all we know, Eppley could have had a publicist get in touch with the rag mag as it looks like a puff piece for him or at least give him more exposure.
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For all we know, Eppley could have had a publicist get in touch with the rag mag as it looks like a puff piece for him or at least give him more exposure.
Good point.
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Sounds like self-loathing/hatred and letting society (which is extremely insecure, as a whole) dictate worth.
Anyone making fun of another person has zero self-worth and they're resolving that dissonance by taking it out on another person. And/or they are secretely insecure about that person. The sooner you realize that the sooner you can move above those people, who make up the majority. People fail by expecting validation from external sources.
Eppely cashing in on insecurity is an unfortunate byproduct. The guy should only be fixing true congenital deformities.
Eppley trawls for patients by reading those types of forums, noting what they are asking questions about and then puts that in his blog so when they search for stuff that indicates male model, they find him. His blog is basically the net he catches them with.
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Eppley trawls for patients by reading those types of forums, noting what they are asking questions about and then puts that in his blog so when they search for stuff that indicates male model, they find him. His blog is basically the net he catches them with.
That's disturbing...
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Eppley trawls for patients by reading those types of forums, noting what they are asking questions about and then puts that in his blog so when they search for stuff that indicates male model, they find him. His blog is basically the net he catches them with.
I didn't know he was that shady, though I do see his name so often I was skeptical of him. I thought he was just cashing in on desperation.
That seems legal but unethical.
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This is probably true. Before surgery, I thought my face was basically 'normal', and that JS could correct my functional issues and even have a chance to make me look better. Now I have insecurities about my face because I feel I look a bit 'abnormal', even if some say it was an improvement overall. I could have gone my whole life without knowing the significance of a nasolabial angle or what the f**k an anterior nasal spine is. But here I am. On the one hand, I'm glad I know a lot more so I can make more informed decisions about these things going forward. On the other, it's in my head now.
For some people it may be better to not know and live in ignorance. For me not knowing and understanding gives a sense of being out of control that I can't stand. In this journey I've had a lot of people who have tried to cheer me up and tell me that they absolutely can't see what I'm talking about, which literally drives me crazy. The biggest problem for me have not been the actual objective problems, those can be analyzed and dealt with appropriately and it can be discussed what the best solution is. But getting ambigious opinions, some people don't see the problem, some people say some solution is impossible, while others say it 's possible etc, that's the real mind f**k.
In my first therapy session, my therapist said something like "you know what, I think you look like Brad pitt", and I didn't know what to respond to such ridiculous comment on such serious topic. Brad Pitt looks like Brad Pitt and I look like my self. I'm not there to discuss if Brad Pitt needs same surgery as me, and I'm sure he have his own therapist who can deal with his issues.
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In my first therapy session, my therapist said something like "you know what, I think you look like Brad pitt", and I didn't know what to respond to such ridiculous comment on such serious topic.
If said therapist was a female, you should have jumped her bones. That's how to respond.
If a male, never go back.
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I didn't know he was that shady, though I do see his name so often I was skeptical of him. I thought he was just cashing in on desperation.
That seems legal but unethical.
He cashes in on weird requests and will get a publicity slot for such. For example, he was on some program, maybe 'The Doctors' (not sure which TV program) where there was this woman who wanted the tips of her ribs removed for a highly ARTIFICIAL 'wasp' waist. She was one of those patients who wanted to look unnatural. He removed multiple rib sections and gave her a weird wasp waist which is what she wanted. It was something other doctors would not do. Likewise with the hyped up face implants for the MM wanna bees. They don't end up looking like MMs (with MMs it's ALL in the EYES and a PS can't reproduce that) though.
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For example, he was on some program, maybe 'The Doctors' (not sure which TV program) where there was this woman who wanted the tips of her ribs removed for a highly ARTIFICIAL 'wasp' waist. She was one of those patients who wanted to look unnatural. He removed multiple rib sections and gave her a weird wasp waist which is what she wanted.
Is it this one?
https://images.app.goo.gl/oR6c2PeGaidDvMQHA
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Is it this one?
https://images.app.goo.gl/oR6c2PeGaidDvMQHA
Yes. That is she. Eppley removed rib sections for her wasp waist.
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Yes. That is she. Eppley removed rib sections for her wasp waist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=31&v=dNnCaXUJ7RQ
I saw it on the 'Doctors' show.
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But there is indeed real demand for these tiny waists you can snap with a finger
In fact I think he has cultivated so much of a reputation for doing this (rib removal to bring in the waist ), I am not sure how much of this is organic demand and how much of this has directly arisen from the fact that such a procedure is now available (that a week ago you didn't even know you needed )
He :)cashes in on weird requests and will get a publicity slot for such. For example, he was on some program, maybe 'The Doctors' (not sure which TV program) where there was this woman who wanted the tips of her ribs removed for a highly ARTIFICIAL 'wasp' waist. She was one of those patients who wanted to look unnatural. He removed multiple rib sections and gave her a weird wasp waist which is what she wanted. It was something other doctors would not do. Likewise with the hyped up face implants for the MM wanna bees. They don't end up looking like MMs (with MMs it's ALL in the EYES and a PS can't reproduce that) though.
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Yes. That is she. Eppley removed rib sections for her wasp waist.
He didn't invent it. It's been around for a long time.
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Is it this one?
https://images.app.goo.gl/oR6c2PeGaidDvMQHA
I actually saw her on ID Korea hospitals site the other day. Didn't know it was her, until I saw her name and other pics now on that google link. She had V-line surgery there. Not even sure why, I guess to give a pinched in cartoon look. She looked better before...which I'm sure can be said for all her surgeries.
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_00.jpg
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_45.jpg
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_90.jpg
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I actually saw her on ID Korea hospitals site the other day. Didn't know it was her, until I saw her name and other pics now on that google link. She had V-line surgery there. Not even sure why, I guess to give a pinched in cartoon look. She looked better before...which I'm sure can be said for all her surgeries.
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_00.jpg
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_45.jpg
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_90.jpg
Yes, I saw a documentary about her once. She indeed have a pronounced quest to look like a cartoon character. She have also performed a procedure to change her eye colour. And if someone didn't notice, probably some breast implant as well.
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I actually saw her on ID Korea hospitals site the other day. Didn't know it was her, until I saw her name and other pics now on that google link. She had V-line surgery there. Not even sure why, I guess to give a pinched in cartoon look. She looked better before...which I'm sure can be said for all her surgeries.
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_00.jpg
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_45.jpg
https://eng.idhospital.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/bna_g18001_90.jpg
Wow. Based on the photos, she lost some support to her lower face that way. The ogee curve is 'fatter' near the middle where it should be more tapered in, the chin is more recessed and the jaw angles are not that visible in the after.
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I didn't know he was that shady, though I do see his name so often I was skeptical of him. I thought he was just cashing in on desperation.
That seems legal but unethical.
We need a NEW classification of mental disorders that are directly applicable to what the clueless are most magnetized to but don't understand. I propose the term; SPDD; Stu Pid DD.
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Wow. Based on the photos, she lost some support to her lower face that way. The ogee curve is 'fatter' near the middle where it should be more tapered in, the chin is more recessed and the jaw angles are not that visible in the after.
She's under the V-line gallery, but the tags under her photos also say "No-tie Double Jaw Surgery" and "High-L Cheekbone Reduction"
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We need a NEW classification of mental disorders that are directly applicable to what the clueless are most magnetized to but don't understand. I propose the term; SPDD; Stu Pid DD.
LOL
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She's under the V-line gallery, but the tags under her photos also say "No-tie Double Jaw Surgery" and "High-L Cheekbone Reduction"
I followed her pretty closely at one point, mostly from medical curiosity to see how much cosmetic modification a human can handle.
Shes had complications mostly from her rhinoplasties (like a half dozen or so) and has no sensation in her lower lip and chin from the V-line.
I was pretty dumbfounded when she had her outstanding facial structure shaved down, recessed and flattened intentionally at ID in South Korea.
I dont know the details of her most recent complications but its really put her out of commission. She announced taking a break to recover from a complication in July 2018 and only posts stories on instagram, where she is basically bed ridden wishing for her life back. f**k it made me really sad to see.
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Certainly she has already had atleast a couple procedures in the before? (her nose already looks fairly unnatural / her lips look bloated) It would be interesting to see what she looked like before any surgery... it's a good case that shows one should do little as possible in the current state of cosmetic procedures.
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I was pretty dumbfounded when she had her outstanding facial structure shaved down, recessed and flattened intentionally at ID in South Korea.
That was indeed an extreme intervention.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BVQLIydFHDi/?hl=de
https://www.instagram.com/p/BV719r8lk7i/?hl=de
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Is it this one?
https://images.app.goo.gl/oR6c2PeGaidDvMQHA
Great scott.
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I dont know the details of her most recent complications but its really put her out of commission. She announced taking a break to recover from a complication in July 2018 and only posts stories on instagram, where she is basically bed ridden wishing for her life back. f**k it made me really sad to see.
I wonder what happened? It must be pretty bad to stop her.
I suppose something was going to get her eventually. You can't do that amount of surgery and come out unscathed.
Jusken, yeah she had many many procedures before the jaw surgery. She lists them in this video (from what she can remember). There are also pics in this video of how she looked before too.
https://vimeo.com/312779866
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In the video she claims “over 200” procedures.
That’s over $1 million in cosmetic surgery, conservatively assuming 5k per.
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She was very good looking before, wow. Now she looks like one of those weird sex dolls... mind boggling.
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She was very good looking before, wow. Now she looks like one of those weird sex dolls... mind boggling.
She looks like a publicity whore to me.
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Bdd is just a term that is about obsession with looks. Then you have to define 'obsession'. Repeated uncontrolable thoughts? My personal opinion: probably everyone that goes through a cosmetic procedure has some level of focus on looks that is above normal focus.
The question of bdd should be placed apart from the question: do you look better after surgery. Cause you can have above levels of obsession + bad results and above levels of obsession + good results. If you have good results, it might improve the quality of life and maybe make someone less anxious. But will it take away the obsession? I don't think so. And I don't think therapy can do neither. So there is no real solution. It's hardwired in someone's brain. There's alle kind of psychological factors that play a role. Do you like your face? Does the environment likes it? And alle the bad life experience you had? Feeling miserabele about your face and missing out on things? You have a memory.
The worst is bdd + bad results. How do you deal with that? And what exactly is a bad result? Does it look better but a bit fake? People don't like things that look out of the normal, so they will react differently. Also: do you care about other people's reactions or not? Some people that do surgery care, others not. All these kind of things play a role.
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I'm a recessed dork, and I've had more attractive girlfriends than many "male model" types (these guys are usually gay, for one, but other issues such as femininity in a man). I wonder how I'd fit in the incel theology.
I think athletes get more women than models. Models are feminine, and girls over 18 rarely want to date female looking guys. I have a theory that young girls like feminine guys because they're not yet mentally ready for sex and a feminine guy is safe. After 18 or so they want a neutral or masculine guy, in general.
Anyway, ugly people can date attractive women if they're funny, interesting, not desperate (most important maybe), etc. Money isn't as big an issue as people think. The big problem is when you're unattractive and possess no good personality traits. Then you're truly doomed.
What's a good personality trait? So because some incels post hateful massages about women, they don't have good personalities? Give me a break. I spoke to some incels and they seem like soft and quite nice when you speak with them privately. Everyone has different identities nowadays. Online personality/real personality/how they view themselves/how others view themselves etc. If we're going to measure someone's personality based on what the majority thinks (incels are bad), then Hitler was a good guy, cause he was liked by the majority of germans in the 30s.
Also, alot of theories about looks that are discussed here, came from online discussions between incels years ago. Canthal tilt, facial thirds, hunter eyes etc.
The blackpill is a toxic philosophy but the truth was never meant to be nice.
This board is full of incels by the way. I'm not one myself cause I slept with many women. It's better not to get involved on incel boards but that doesn't mean everything they discuss is untrue. Many things that are discussed on this board are discussed on incel boards as well. There's a thin line.
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Did you know that all modern humans have twice as many female ancestors as male? On first thought, it sounds ridiculous, but on average 50% of men in history have not been able to reproduce. So what ended up happening historically is that every man who could reproduce had an average of two children, and every woman who could reproduce had an average of one child. If you average that over a few thousand generations, 2 female ancestors for every male.
The important part is that historically 50% of men could not reproduce. I have a lot of sympathy for the suffering of those men, but at the same time its natural selection and i don't believe it should be tampered with on a mass level. The prominence of the Catholic church and its influence on the state during the Victorian era leveled that out artificially, creating a one man/one woman system. With the separation of church and state, the invention of contraception (and the sexual liberation movement in the 60s) the decline of religion (i.e the "death of God") and the availability phenomenon created by online dating, we're seeing a reemergence of men who can not reproduce. I don't see it as an axiomatically bad thing unless it starts growing to the level where it destabilizes society. Again, my heart goes out to that 50% of men. Hopefully, they can find other ways to make life meaningful.
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CBT is frequently thought to work for bdd but what I feel is that like OCD, you are probably just dialling back the anxiety so its not always at a sky high debilitating pitch that renders you non functional. However it is always there, even if it is just background noise and this is very hard to deal with or accept as a long term prognosis
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Did you know that all modern humans have twice as many female ancestors as male? On first thought, it sounds ridiculous, but on average 50% of men in history have not been able to reproduce. So what ended up happening historically is that every man who could reproduce had an average of two children, and every woman who could reproduce had an average of one child. If you average that over a few thousand generations, 2 female ancestors for every male.
The important part is that historically 50% of men could not reproduce. I have a lot of sympathy for the suffering of those men, but at the same time its natural selection and i don't believe it should be tampered with on a mass level. The prominence of the Catholic church and its influence on the state during the Victorian era leveled that out artificially, creating a one man/one woman system. With the separation of church and state, the invention of contraception (and the sexual liberation movement in the 60s) the decline of religion (i.e the "death of God") and the availability phenomenon created by online dating, we're seeing a reemergence of men who can not reproduce. I don't see it as an axiomatically bad thing unless it starts growing to the level where it destabilizes society. Again, my heart goes out to that 50% of men. Hopefully, they can find other ways to make life meaningful.
The number of 'incel' men is about 27% according to the most recent research. Better than 50% but still shocking. That's a 3-fold increase in the past decade. I don't think the decline of socio/religious norms has been particularly pronounced in the past 10 years, so I think there are other cultural factors at play.
Honestly the prevalence of dating apps is a big deal. Women instantly have access to the 'highest value' men, and women are far more sexually selective than men, so there's no incentive for them to settle for a 'lesser' specimen. I consider myself at least somewhat attractive, but my experience with dating apps was mediocre to disappointing. I can't imagine what the experience is like for guys that are even less fortunate. I've read stories from normal looking guys that go months without a matching with a single (real) girl. That is just horrible.
Increasingly atomized social life in advanced capitalist society has huge drawbacks for many men's ability to properly socialize with women in the first place. When most of our interactions are digitally mediated, real-life flirting becomes an anxiety inducing experience for many men. Digital contact becomes the default social form, and that leaves a lot of otherwise perfectly normal guys in the dust.
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So because some incels post hateful massages about women, they don't have good personalities?
Correct. Hatred is a bad personality trait.
I spoke to some incels and they seem like soft and quite nice when you speak with them privately.
Being "soft and quit" isn't good or bad on its own. Being nice is good, but nice people don't lash out at women/society on forums and then act differently in private. I never said all incels are terrible. At least I don't think I did. But the ones who post on those forums lashing out at society for their plight have terrible personalities. That is holding them back more than looks.
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Correct. Hatred is a bad personality trait.
Being "soft and quit" isn't good or bad on its own. Being nice is good, but nice people don't lash out at women/society on forums and then act differently in private. I never said all incels are terrible. At least I don't think I did. But the ones who post on those forums lashing out at society for their plight have terrible personalities. That is holding them back more than looks.
Hatred is not a personality trait, it's an emotion. You aren't born with hate, you become hateful, whether it's due to the environment, upbringing or because of mental problems, or a combination of that.
But the ones who post on those forums lashing out at society for their plight have terrible personalities. That is holding them back more than looks.
I don't agree with that. If they act normal in real life, how could it hold them back. If there's something holding them back, it's their level of anxiety and insecurity, due to their perceived looks or due to objectively bad looks. You can act like a prick in real life, there's always someone that will like you. But if you're anxious and insecure, and you don't come out of your own house, it will be difficult. Also, even pricks have good traits. There's no such thing as a bad of good person. And person A can like you, person B can hate you. Which one is right?
If I'm talking about my personal situation: before i fcked up my looks with a couple of procedures, people liked me and I had many friends. After soms bad procedures, people acted mean and bad towards me (can't blame them). I can tell you for sure that my personality hasn't changed. Now, if I wasn't so focussed on looks, I wouldn't give a damn about other people's reactions.
The evil is not within incels or another particular group, the evil is within human nature in general. Anyway, I'm not trying to have a debate here about incels or whatever.
I just think there's soms level of bdd or whatever you may call it in someone that tries to change his or her looks, whether it's an incel or not. Thing is, many procedures don't give good results. I think it would be more productive if time and energy is focused on techniques, skills, materials etc. Good results may not take away psychological damage, someone's past or all anxiety, but it can improve someone's quality of life, making him of her more accepted, improve his or her sexlife and therefore indirectly take away part of insecurity, hatred or anxiety. But you always have to look at the individual case. Some people only need an improvement in looks, others only therapy and others both.
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If I'm talking about my personal situation: before i fcked up my looks with a couple of procedures, people liked me and I had many friends. After soms bad procedures, people acted mean and bad towards me (can't blame them). I can tell you for sure that my personality hasn't changed. Now, if I wasn't so focussed on looks, I wouldn't give a damn about other people's reactions.
You lost friends after you had surgeries go wrong? Were you badly disfigured beyond reconstruction? This sounds crazy to me; I've always imagined my true friends will still treat me the same regardless of how I look. Perhaps im still somewhat delusional when it comes to this regard.
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You lost friends after you had surgeries go wrong? Were you badly disfigured beyond reconstruction? This sounds crazy to me; I've always imagined my true friends will still treat me the same regardless of how I look. Perhaps im still somewhat delusional when it comes to this regard.
Not really lost friends but lost my popularity. Begane difficult to meet new people etc.
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Not really lost friends but lost my popularity. Begane difficult to meet new people etc.
This is from your CW and PEEK implants?