jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: sal123 on October 20, 2019, 06:33:37 AM
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What do you guys think of my results,. I had a custom jaw wraparound implant made of PEEK, and felt no pain whatsoever after the op, or had any complications thank god. surgeon kept checking on me, every day for 5 days, by visiting. initially i wanted cheek implants too for a full facial shop change but the surgeon said my cheeks were fine. In addition, i hoped for a square chin, but in some lighting it doesn't look square; im not sure if a square chin would have looked better or worse due to my narrow eyes. the implant showed a very square shaped chin she im not sure why it isn't as. anyways somepeople have square chins and it doesn't look good and this might have been the same in my case, im so not sure. Maybe swelling, but i dont want the width to decrease any further. btw its been 6 weeks as i had the op on 11th september
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before
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1 month post
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6 weeks
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3 weeks
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The 6th week photo looks great.
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this is a pretty damn good result. who was the surgeon?
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The 6th week photo looks great.
yh so in the clinic they had this cooling mask which reduced most swelling.
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Also, maybe it's just swelling but I think your lip shape looks more masculine after. Chin implants can sometimes effect how the lower lip looks I think.
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You have nice eyes and good features and good bone structure to the rest of the face. I'm talking about the BEFORE. So you were excellent candidate for the implants from the get go because they FRAME the rest of the features. You are lucky you had a good rest of the face and features to frame.
Yes. They look good and you are lucky to have the good rest of the face for them to frame.
Where did you get those eyes?
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You have nice eyes and good features and good bone structure to the rest of the face. I'm talking about the BEFORE. So you were excellent candidate for the implants from the get go because they FRAME the rest of the features. You are lucky you had a good rest of the face and features to frame.
Yes. They look good and you are lucky to have the good rest of the face for them to frame.
Where did you get those eyes?
His eyes are indeed beautiful. Could I ask you if there is any truth to my proposition that chin implants can alter how the lower lip looks?
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His eyes are indeed beautiful. Could I ask you if there is any truth to my proposition that chin implants can alter how the lower lip looks?
As I said, the whole of the implant (including the chin) is good frame for features when someone has good features and his lips were good from the beginning and good features to frame. Other than that chin augmentation can give better support for lower lip.
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As I said, the whole of the implant (including the chin) is good frame for features when someone has good features and his lips were good from the beginning and good features to frame. Other than that chin augmentation can give better support for lower lip.
Ah ok, I guess that's what I meant: ‘better support’. That's good to know, thank you.
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As I said, the whole of the implant (including the chin) is good frame for features when someone has good features and his lips were good from the beginning and good features to frame. Other than that chin augmentation can give better support for lower lip.
in addition my teeth look wider as if I’ve widened my palate. And so do my eyes
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Here are a few more before and after
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Before
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1 month after
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Before
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After 3 weeks- btw the redness around eyes mouth and neck is due to a cream prescribed by a doctor to remove skin tan
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After 5 weeks
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Jaw implants look great. But where did you get the EYES, in particular the upper lid area that extends beyond the lateral canthal area to make them LOOK longer and how the upper lid crease kind of flips upward at the end of it. Was that surgery or natural.
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Who was your surgeon?
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Jaw implants look great. But where did you get the EYES, in particular the upper lid area that extends beyond the lateral canthal area to make them LOOK longer and how the upper lid crease kind of flips upward at the end of it. Was that surgery or natural.
yh that’s natural and I don’t like them because they make me look aggressive
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1 month after
Looks like s**t. No harmony whatsoever. The 3 facial thirds are not in proportion to each other. Your forehead's way too big for example, your lower third isn't wide and angular enough. I have no idea how your implant isn't angular as implants are supposed to keep angularity contrary to fillers. You must have a high bodyfat percentage otherwise I don't know.
Your midface is too long. Even tho you're squinting in the picture, you still have a lot of upper eyelid exposure. Your lateral canthus isn't wide enough, as a result your eyes are small and round. Sclera show too. Can't see your cheekbones because your jaws were recessed from the get-go. You've slapped implants on recessed jaws. As a result your harmony is completely off.
This is why you fix recession first, then augment the bone structure with fillers or implants.
You had much better harmony before.
This is my honest opinion
Show me a side profile pic.
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yh that’s natural and I don’t like them because they make me look aggressive
You don't look aggressive at all LOL
Edit: Sorry for double post.
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I think you look really nice in the 'before' pictures and even better after. As others pointed out, you have really nice eyes and your forehead and nose look great too so that part of your face probably catches most people's attention, regardless of the jaw area. I think I know what you mean about your eyes making you look 'aggressive', but it's like a 'masculine' look in a good way, I don't know how to explain it but it looks good on you. You are lucky with your looks, don't need any more procedures.
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Looks like s**t. No harmony whatsoever. The 3 facial thirds are not in proportion to each other. Your forehead's way too big for example, your lower third isn't wide and angular enough. I have no idea how your implant isn't angular as implants are supposed to keep angularity contrary to fillers. You must have a high bodyfat percentage otherwise I don't know.
Your midface is too long. Even tho you're squinting in the picture, you still have a lot of upper eyelid exposure. Your lateral canthus isn't wide enough, as a result your eyes are small and round. Sclera show too. Can't see your cheekbones because your jaws were recessed from the get-go. You've slapped implants on recessed jaws. As a result your harmony is completely off.
This is why you fix recession first, then augment the bone structure with fillers or implants.
You had much better harmony before.
This is my honest opinion
Show me a side profile pic.
haha lool someone spends too much time on the computer. Not even I care about all that stuff what u said because u come across miserable and obsessive. Of course the angularity hasn’t kicked in yet that’s what I explained before but that’s 1 month postop so what do u expect- surgeon said give it three months 1 month is too soon. Secondly everything is harmonious and I love it. The measurements were exact e.g. the gonial was made to become as wide as my outer orbital and chin was lengthened just right to accommodate my narrow orbitals. Only problem is I thought the chin was too wide so asked him to reduce the size. Still don’t know if this was the right idea as in lighting from above makes my chin seem square and wide but lighting g from the front makes it less square. Thirdly, my jaw was never recessed to begin with loool. I loved my side pictures - only the front bothered my because I had a triangular face. I really do think you’ve thrown out all YOUR faults out on here :) And I’m not squinting my eyes lmao, that’s a normal look when lighting is good and when I use the back camera to take a picture as the from one gives a unreal image. Oh yh an pls don’t start with my body fat, I’m 19 , excellent physique with 6% body fat - in other words I’m hoping to gain weight.
Didn’t your mum teach u to say please
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this is a pretty damn good result. who was the surgeon?
dr d in Europe . Such a great doctor, I was 30 mins late yet he still examined me and our 30 min consultation went up to 1 and a half hour. He came to see me every day after the op
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haha lool someone spends too much time on the computer. Not even I care about all that stuff what u said because u come across miserable and obsessive.
Sorry you had to read all that.
He's on a two ban for the post, but considering a permanent ban since he is clearly from a PuaHate type site. These people can't contain their true colors forever and always expose themselves.
You look good/better after. Go enjoy life unless you have functional problems.
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yh that’s natural and I don’t like them because they make me look aggressive
Although you said the IP distance was not wide enough, the other contours of them especially the upper lids gives illusion of further IP distance. I really like those eyes. Fantastic. Anyway, your jaw implant really suits your face very well.
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Vigyázz! Ne legyél hülye!
Looks like s**t. No harmony whatsoever. The 3 facial thirds are not in proportion to each other. Your forehead's way too big for example, your lower third isn't wide and angular enough. I have no idea how your implant isn't angular as implants are supposed to keep angularity contrary to fillers. You must have a high bodyfat percentage otherwise I don't know.
Your midface is too long. Even tho you're squinting in the picture, you still have a lot of upper eyelid exposure. Your lateral canthus isn't wide enough, as a result your eyes are small and round. Sclera show too. Can't see your cheekbones because your jaws were recessed from the get-go. You've slapped implants on recessed jaws. As a result your harmony is completely off.
This is why you fix recession first, then augment the bone structure with fillers or implants.
You had much better harmony before.
This is my honest opinion
Show me a side profile pic.
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Sorry you had to read all that.
He's on a two ban for the post, but considering a permanent ban since he is clearly from a PuaHate type site. These people can't contain their true colors forever and always expose themselves.
You look good/better after. Go enjoy life unless you have functional problems.
Indeed. He is/was on those 'lookism' types of sites and wants to 'mog' others. He even got banned from some of them.
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Although you said the IP distance was not wide enough, the other contours of them especially the upper lids gives illusion of further IP distance. I really like those eyes. Fantastic. Anyway, your jaw implant really suits your face very well.
I think this is the sort of case that motivates other guys to seek wraparound jaw implants without realizing the cheekbone and especially eye structure are what allow for the augmentation to be aesthetic
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I think this is the sort of case that motivates other guys to seek wraparound jaw implants without realizing the cheekbone and especially eye structure are what allow for the augmentation to be aesthetic
So true! The implant looks great on OP, but he already had such a good base plus he went to a skilled doctor. I imagine this result is exceptional rather than typical. Anyway, good for him.
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I think this is the sort of case that motivates other guys to seek wraparound jaw implants without realizing the cheekbone and especially eye structure are what allow for the augmentation to be aesthetic
+ karma
Indeed. It's mostly the eye structure; shape of palpebral fissure (eye opening), or lets just say when someone already has a pretty good eye shape. That's key factor making the whole 'gestalt' work WITH the jaw implants. So, jaw implants FRAME the face. So, what one is framing needs to be considered.
The thing about guys wanting jaw implants (or even face full of implants) is that they see the good jaw lines (or over all bone structure) on male MODELS. But not only do the MMs have a good eye area, they also have an extremely exaggerated one that's way better than just 'good'. So, in effect, their bone structure FRAMES their EYES.
Aesthetic dis harmonies come into play when guys who just DON'T have 'the eyes' get a face full of implants wanting 'what the model has'. Because, if the eyes are bad, they get FRAMED by the face full of implants and all that built in bone structure will not be doing much for them because it can end up calling MORE attention to the eyes.
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Who did the procedure?
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Who did the procedure?
DeFrancq
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Looks like s**t. No harmony whatsoever. The 3 facial thirds are not in proportion to each other. Your forehead's way too big for example, your lower third isn't wide and angular enough. I have no idea how your implant isn't angular as implants are supposed to keep angularity contrary to fillers. You must have a high bodyfat percentage otherwise I don't know.
Your midface is too long. Even tho you're squinting in the picture, you still have a lot of upper eyelid exposure. Your lateral canthus isn't wide enough, as a result your eyes are small and round. Sclera show too. Can't see your cheekbones because your jaws were recessed from the get-go. You've slapped implants on recessed jaws. As a result your harmony is completely off.
This is why you fix recession first, then augment the bone structure with fillers or implants.
You had much better harmony before.
This is my honest opinion
Show me a side profile pic.
You can nitpick on all kind of things and then make it pretend it looks s**t. It looks good and it seems defrancq's best work until now. Implants will never 100% look natural. That's why they are implants. It looks 94% natural and that's enough not te be noticed by other people. He has nice features and now has a more robust face. Implants almost never enhance own angularity. They are usually a bit less angular than own angularity. They do add a bit of width and that looks fine on this young man.
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6 week - today . Don’t want chin to reduce but the cheeks still r puffy
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Looks great! Just saw that you said you widened your palate, did that change your lips at all?
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Looks great! Just saw that you said you widened your palate, did that change your lips at all?
I didn’t widen my palate, the implant just made it look like I did.
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I didn’t widen my palate, the implant just made it look like I did.
Ah ok, a nice bonus then :D
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How old is Dr defrancq? He looked old 3 yrs ago!
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Did you have a rhinoplasty too? your nose looks very very nice man
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Sorry you had to read all that.
He's on a two ban for the post, but considering a permanent ban since he is clearly from a PuaHate type site. These people can't contain their true colors forever and always expose themselves.
You look good/better after. Go enjoy life unless you have functional problems.
I don't understand, what's your issue with my honest constructive opinion? I say constructive because iT's honest. If I lied and sugar-coated how could I be constructive? I can't help without being honest can I?
In my opinion the ban was completely unjust but ok, let bygones be bygones.
To the OP: I'm not obsessive, I'm just fascinated with the whole science behind facial attractiveness. Basically if you don't look proportionate (and I'm not talking about you now, I'm talking about anyone), (the 3 facial thirds), you can never be truly aesthetic.
If you're happy with the results that's fine and fortunate
@Kavan: I've never been banned from lookism, only from looksmax due to a mod on a power trip. He's 5'2 and has lost the genetic lottery, and gets off off taking it out on other people.
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I don't understand, what's your issue with my honest constructive opinion? I say constructive because iT's honest. If I lied and sugar-coated how could I be constructive? I can't help without being honest can I?
In my opinion the ban was completely unjust but ok, let bygones be bygones.
To the OP: I'm not obsessive, I'm just fascinated with the whole science behind facial attractiveness. Basically if you don't look proportionate (and I'm not talking about you now, I'm talking about anyone), (the 3 facial thirds), you can never be truly aesthetic.
If you're happy with the results that's fine and fortunate
@Kavan: I've never been banned from lookism, only from looksmax due to a mod on a power trip. He's 5'2 and has lost the genetic lottery, and gets off off taking it out on other people.
You had to use different alt on lookism. So that would mean a ban. Looksmax is similar POPULATION.
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You had to use different alt on lookism. So that would mean a ban. Looksmax is similar POPULATION.
No, I did that because I had used a temporary email address for the accounts and I forgot the passwords to them and couldn't possibly recover them. That's why. I've never been banned from lookism yet.
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Basically if you don't look proportionate (and I'm not talking about you now, I'm talking about anyone), (the 3 facial thirds), you can never be truly aesthetic.
Except that’s not true. The ‘facial thirds’ is a baseline analysis and neither an absolute pre-requisite nor guarantor of good aesthetics. Your assertion that you can never be ‘truly aesthetic’ without perfect facial thirds is misinformed and damaging. Not to mention the phrase ‘truly aesthetic’ is meaningless.
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Except that’s not true. The ‘facial thirds’ is a baseline analysis and neither an absolute pre-requisite nor guarantor of good aesthetics. Your assertion that you can never be ‘truly aesthetic’ without perfect facial thirds is misinformed and damaging. Not to mention the phrase ‘truly aesthetic’ is meaningless.
Truly aesthetic means, at least in my vocabulary, to be attractive to 80-90% of the members of the opposite sex. Ofc I'm not saying OP is ugly, no.
The ‘facial thirds’ is a baseline analysis and neither an absolute pre-requisite nor guarantor of good aesthetics
That's not true. If it was true, then proportions wouldn't matter at all, and you know all too well they matter a lot. I'm a very good example for this, my midface is waaay too long and my upper third is out of proportion too as my forehead's too big which I'm also going to get surgery for.
If you have proportionate facial thirds like MM's, then you can be sure you're going to be found attractive by the vast majority of people and reap the benefits of such a status. If this wasn't true then a compact midface wouldn't be a pre-requisite of being MM-tier.
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I don't understand, what's your issue with my honest constructive opinion? I say constructive because iT's honest. If I lied and sugar-coated how could I be constructive? I can't help without being honest can I?
If you don't understand you'll never understand.
Even if you truly didn't like the result, instead of your transparent attempt to make yourself feel good by belittling his result, there are ways to say that. You lost the "tact" lottery.
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If you don't understand you'll never understand.
Even if you truly didn't like the result, instead of your transparent attempt to make yourself feel good by belittling his result, there are ways to say that. You lost the "tact" lottery.
Alright, note taken. Sorry.
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Truly aesthetic means, at least in my vocabulary, to be attractive to 80-90% of the members of the opposite sex. Ofc I'm not saying OP is ugly, no.
The ‘facial thirds’ is a baseline analysis and neither an absolute pre-requisite nor guarantor of good aesthetics
That's not true. If it was true, then proportions wouldn't matter at all, and you know all too well they matter a lot. I'm a very good example for this, my midface is waaay too long and my upper third is out of proportion too as my forehead's too big which I'm also going to get surgery for.
If you have proportionate facial thirds like MM's, then you can be sure you're going to be found attractive by the vast majority of people and reap the benefits of such a status. If this wasn't true then a compact midface wouldn't be a pre-requisite of being MM-tier.
We can pick out dozens of celebrities without 'perfect' facial thirds that "80-90% of the members of the opposite sex" find attractive. Likewise, there are millions of everyday people with 'perfect' facial thirds that are not as good-looking.
Let's return to your comment for a second:
Looks like s**t. No harmony whatsoever. The 3 facial thirds are not in proportion to each other. Your forehead's way too big for example, your lower third isn't wide and angular enough. I have no idea how your implant isn't angular as implants are supposed to keep angularity contrary to fillers.
Any rational person can agree that his implant objectively does NOT "look like s**t", especially given his baseline bone structure. His implant AUGMENTED and IMPROVED on what he already had. His facial thirds are not so out of proportion that his result is not 'aesthetic'.
In your response you compare his result to the ideal MM structure and complain that because OP is still not MM tier aesthetics, his result is a disaster. I'm telling you right now that this result is about as good as you can hope for in terms of improving aesthetics with implants/JS, and that it was only achievable because OP had the right 'base' to begin with. If you're under the delusion that YOU will look similar to a MM after a bimax or implants, or even that you can achieve a result superior to OP, you need to seriously re-evaluate your goals.
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New post today
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New post today
I mean, you just look hot as hell as far as I'm concerned, but I'm gay, so there we are.
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I mean, you just look hot as hell as far as I'm concerned, but I'm gay, so there we are.
No you don't understand, he doesn't have perfect facial thirds. That's impossible
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The only thing objectively off with his proportions is his eyes are close together.
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The only thing objectively off with his proportions is his eyes are close together.
I was being facetious in my reply there, just in case it didn’t translate well via text
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I mean, you just look hot as hell as far as I'm concerned, but I'm gay, so there we are.
Straight woman here, can confirm (I mean, the hotness factor). But then again, what do we know - we don't spend enough time on incel websites to understand what makes someone attractive!
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To the OP: I'm not obsessive, I'm just fascinated with the whole science behind facial attractiveness. Basically if you don't look proportionate (and I'm not talking about you now, I'm talking about anyone), (the 3 facial thirds), you can never be truly aesthetic.
Even models have flaws. It's not so bad to have some flaws. Your face doesn't need to fit the golden mask exactly. OP was decent looking, but I can see why his lower third bothered him. It's more 'full' now and he went up in looks a bit. You can't be attractive to everybody, but I would say he's above average and that's okay.
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Even models have flaws.
Models typically don't have beautiful faces. The whole idea behind modelling is that the person's body should not distract viewers from the clothes they're wearing, as their job is to show off the clothes. They don't employ people with a face or body that would attract viewer's attention, no matter how handsome / beautiful or 'hot' the person is. They want tall, lean people with a certain type of face - nothing stands out, no unusual nose, teeth, eyes etc. A lot of average people are much more attractive in real life than models, it does not mean anything about attractiveness that someone could not get a job as a model. For the record, I'm pretty sure OP could be a male model if he wanted to, if he has the height and physique for it (which is actually much more important for modelling than the face).
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Models typically don't have beautiful faces. The whole idea behind modelling is that the person's body should not distract viewers from the clothes they're wearing, as their job is to show off the clothes. They don't employ people with a face or body that would attract viewer's attention, no matter how handsome / beautiful or 'hot' the person is. They want tall, lean people with a certain type of face - nothing stands out, no unusual nose, teeth, eyes etc. A lot of average people are much more attractive in real life than models, it does not mean anything about attractiveness that someone could not get a job as a model. For the record, I'm pretty sure OP could be a male model if he wanted to, if he has the height and physique for it (which is actually much more important for modelling than the face).
Most important for male modeling is lower third (height as well of course). Almost all models have the angular jaw, good chin and most of them have good cheekbones as well. If you have these three, you can get away with other facial flaws.
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Most important for male modeling is lower third (height as well of course). Almost all models have the angular jaw, good chin and most of them have good cheekbones as well. If you have these three, you can get away with other facial flaws.
Oh now I see what you mean by model looks - it's true, however, this does not necessarily make a guy handsome or good looking, maybe just average (not ugly, not handsome). On the other hand, there are plenty of men who don't have these features and are still considered attractive by the majority of women, regardless of the fact they would not be selected for modelling work. Which is why I don't think it's a good idea for loads of guys to go out and get jaw surgery / implants to try to get the angular jaw etc. - on some people such as the OP this looks good, on others it would just look unnatural.
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Most important for male modeling is lower third (height as well of course). Almost all models have the angular jaw, good chin
And this is your own (biased) perception of male attractiveness, right? ever heard of guys like Lucas Machado or Luca Fersko? Most agencies I know of have this type of guy in their mainboards.
Anyway, the majority of (attractive) women are dating totally average, even under-average dudes, look-wise. They don't give a sh*t about jaw angles, lower thirds, whatever.. haha.. This thread is hilarious <3
When asked to choose between a MM-dude with plain personality & average-looking dude with interesting personality, 8 out of 10 women are going to chose the latter, especially long-term.
Male incel brains are not able to comprehend this ("guy must be rich or have enormous d*ck!?") because they lack the most important feature that attracts (attractive) women- PERSONALITY!
Again: this thread is hilarious!
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the most important feature that attracts (attractive) women- PERSONALITY!
I'd say that's a typical sexist assumption / expectation - women go for personality, men go for looks. Some men like to think this way because they're sure they have a great personality (obviously!) and they feel entitled to have a good looking woman as a partner and need some justification for that (it's 'natural' for men to go for looks, but if a woman is interested in looks she's shallow). In my experience men and women are equally interested in both looks and personality when it comes to a relationship. For hook ups, both genders are obviously mostly interested in looks, so if men want to be more successful at pulling women in clubs and that sort of thing, it makes a lot of sense for them to try to improve their looks.
Plus, looks are not only important for attracting partners. Better looking people are treated better in many areas of life including work etc. So I don't think it's pointless or shallow to discuss what makes people look attractive in general. Just like with many other things though, it's possible to take it too far and become obsessed with which is not helpful.
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Models typically don't have beautiful faces. The whole idea behind modelling is that the person's body should not distract viewers from the clothes they're wearing, as their job is to show off the clothes. They don't employ people with a face or body that would attract viewer's attention, no matter how handsome / beautiful or 'hot' the person is. They want tall, lean people with a certain type of face - nothing stands out, no unusual nose, teeth, eyes etc. A lot of average people are much more attractive in real life than models, it does not mean anything about attractiveness that someone could not get a job as a model. For the record, I'm pretty sure OP could be a male model if he wanted to, if he has the height and physique for it (which is actually much more important for modelling than the face).
Totally disagree. In general, models are selected to be models because they are highly attractive in face and body and would be considered 'beautiful' or 'extremely handsome'. They are 'off the charts' in the looks department in terms of standing out from 'average' and that includes their faces. Also, agencies like it when they have a minor flaw or something unusual to the face when the whole gestalt gives them a 'striking' appearance or yield a dynamic element, all of which adds up to highly attractive.
THAT'S the very thing that ATTRACTS people to the designer clothes they're sporting, beauty, grooming product or whatever. It's their good looks that basically sell the products they are modelling. If it were really a thing as you say where their body or looks should not distract the viewer from the clothes they're wearing, the cloths could be put on mannequins or shown on hangers with no model.
It's all part of SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING where the product they are selling is SUBLIMINALLY associated with the striking looks of the models. On a subconscious level, the average person wants what the model has--the looks--and that is a BIG FACTOR in people buying the products. It because they associate the product with beauty. These people would look good wearing a burlap flour sack.
For the most part, as to the face of a MM, it's the EYES that are the deal maker with the modeling agencies; the horizontally wide and vertically narrow eyes where rest of bone structure is a frame for that.
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Totally disagree. In general, models are selected to be models because they are highly attractive in face and body and would be considered 'beautiful' or 'extremely handsome'. They are 'off the charts' in the looks department in terms of standing out from 'average' and that includes their faces.
We have to agree to disagree then :). I won't go into details but it so happens that I personally know quite a few people that work in modelling and that's not my experience, but it's pointless arguing about something like this.
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Most important for male modeling is lower third (height as well of course). Almost all models have the angular jaw, good chin and most of them have good cheekbones as well. If you have these three, you can get away with other facial flaws.
Actually, most important for MM is the EYES; the long 'hunter eyes' or close to it. The rest of bone structure, including the lower '1/3rd' is basically the FRAME.
For example, this guy has excellent lower 1/3rd and great rest of bone structure. But NOT the EYES for the whole 'gestalt' of the MM.
Clearly, Adriana Lima, a super model, found him attractive. But for most part MMs are selected to be highly attractive to OTHER MEN because that's whom they are SELLING to (modelling products to buy).
(http://ethnicelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bigstock-Marko-Jaric-at-the-ESPY-58076633-400x600.jpg)
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Dang his eyes are way too near-set too, that's unfortunate. He would be far more attractive otherwise.
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Agree with Kavan. The OP looks good, but as I said, objectively his eyes are too close. He'd never be a male model because that is too distracting and actually produces anxiety to look at. Much more so than asymmetry or lower thirds off, etc. Despite that, he looks good and should go enjoy life at this point. The majority of people have to have flaws, by definition, for the minority of flawless people to stand out.
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Anyway, the majority of (attractive) women are dating totally average, even under-average dudes, look-wise. They don't give a sh*t about jaw angles, lower thirds, whatever.. haha.. This thread is hilarious <3
When asked to choose between a MM-dude with plain personality & average-looking dude with interesting personality, 8 out of 10 women are going to chose the latter, especially long-term.
Male incel brains are not able to comprehend this ("guy must be rich or have enormous d*ck!?") because they lack the most important feature that attracts (attractive) women- PERSONALITY!
Again: this thread is hilarious!
This is reality.
Looks are a quick in where the woman might say to herself "He's hot yada yada", but if she talks to him and he sucks it's over for him. Unless he has the other traits that they actually find attractive (e.g. not lionizing her/putting her on a pedestal, keeping her on guard, humor, intelligence, etc). Then the looks augment things, and he becomes magnetic.
Incels are essentially people who want to be so hot it covers their personality flaws. That will never happen because if you are insufferable nobody will want to be around you for any meaningful length of time no matter what you look like. At least not in any healthy way --you'll wind up getting broken women.
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We have to agree to disagree then :). I won't go into details but it so happens that I personally know quite a few people that work in modelling and that's not my experience, but it's pointless arguing about something like this.
Agencies select models for their striking appearance; run-way, or glossy magazine photographs and for most part to appeal to SAME sex they are selling to eg. GQ models to appeal to men and VS models to appeal to women. If the market segment they are meant to appeal to did not find them highly attractive, the products would not sell.
So, in effect, it's the 'visual experience' of the MARKET SEGMENT they are meant to be attractive to when showcasing products (eg. in mags, runway etc.) that matters.
Sometimes, it's different story when you see them in person as the 'larger than life' striking appearance can look a bit odd in person.
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Actually, most important for MM is the EYES; the long 'hunter eyes' or close to it. The rest of bone structure, including the lower '1/3rd' is basically the FRAME.
For example, this guy has excellent lower 1/3rd and great rest of bone structure. But NOT the EYES for the whole 'gestalt' of the MM.
Clearly, Adriana Lima, a super model, found him attractive. But for most part MMs are selected to be highly attractive to OTHER MEN because that's whom they are SELLING to (modelling products to buy).
(http://ethnicelebs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bigstock-Marko-Jaric-at-the-ESPY-58076633-400x600.jpg)
this is a very similar situation in which I’m in, but whose eyes are much more close set his or mine ?
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This is reality.
Looks are a quick in where the woman might say to herself "He's hot yada yada", but if she talks to him and he sucks it's over for him. Unless he has the other traits that they actually find attractive (e.g. not lionizing her/putting her on a pedestal, keeping her on guard, humor, intelligence, etc). Then the looks augment things, and he becomes magnetic.
Incels are essentially people who want to be so hot it covers their personality flaws. That will never happen because if you are insufferable nobody will want to be around you for any meaningful length of time no matter what you look like. At least not in any healthy way --you'll wind up getting broken women.
The irony about the MMs (also applies to the FMs) is that they are chosen specifically to be attractive to the SAME sex. So, it's what the SAME SEX find highly attractive and thereby ASSOCIATE the product with (usually FASHION items). What the same sex would want in themselves.
For example, MALES find the MMs highly attractive. Let's face it, guys are the Gandy fappers. The irony comes in when they associate looking like Gandy (or another MM in that venue) as key factor for women dropping at their feet. Well, the fashion industry wants them to have that sort of connection. Like the industry KNOWS that GUYS want what Gandy (or other MM) has--their looks-- and from there the subliminal association is made as in 'Buy these clothes and you will have what the MM has and be attractive to women.'
Like a guy might not find a female fashion model 'hot'. She might not have what he's wanting in a female, eg. lot's of curves. But the FM is there to appeal to what WOMEN want on some level.
Similarly, a woman might not be selecting a guy based on his looking like a MM. But the MM is selected by fashion industry to appeal to something that MEN want where they make the ASSOCIATION of having that is what females want.
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this is a very similar situation in which I’m in, but whose eyes are much more close set his or mine ?
His. As I said prior, yours have a contour to the upper lid fold that DEFLECTS and offsets not being 'long'. I don't think yours are really close set though. It's just not the MM 'hunter eye'.
ETA: Close set is when there is less than 'one eye' between the eyes. So, not having a horizontally long and vertically short 'hunter eye' does not mean eyes are close set. MMs have large inter-pupil distance because they have (at least) one hunter eye between the other 2 hunter eyes.
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Sometimes, it's different story when you see them in person as the 'larger than life' striking appearance can look a bit odd in person.
That's what I mean. You need to look a certain way to look good in photos, on the catwalk etc. My experience is that many people that would never get work in modelling look as good or better than models in real life.
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That's what I mean. You need to look a certain way to look good in photos, on the catwalk etc. My experience is that many people that would never get work in modelling look as good or better than models in real life.
That's what I thought you could have meant.
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Like a guy might not find a female fashion model 'hot'. She might not have what he's wanting in a female, eg. lot's of curves. But the FM is there to appeal to what WOMEN want on some level.
So you think females find very thin women attractive? I think models have to be thin simply because clothes look good on tall, thin people, plus if they were too muscular / had curves, people would be looking at the muscles / curves and not the clothes. Also, very thin people do not look as thin in pictures as in real life.
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That's what I thought you could have meant.
Yes. Generally, some people look very good in pictures (especially with lots of make-up, lighting etc.) but not in real life and vice versa. A girlfriend of mine did modelling in her teens and her bedroom walls were decorated with her own modelling pictures. Nobody could even recognize her in the photos, she looked completely different. She told me people would come into her room and ask who the person in the pictures was.
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Today - sorry I look so s**t just came back from gym
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Oh now I see what you mean by model looks - it's true, however, this does not necessarily make a guy handsome or good looking, maybe just average (not ugly, not handsome). On the other hand, there are plenty of men who don't have these features and are still considered attractive by the majority of women, regardless of the fact they would not be selected for modelling work. Which is why I don't think it's a good idea for loads of guys to go out and get jaw surgery / implants to try to get the angular jaw etc. - on some people such as the OP this looks good, on others it would just look unnatural.
Yes. What you say is perfectly true. Guys who don't look like MMs can still be attractive to women. That's because MMs are selected so OTHER MEN find them good looking.
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That's interesting, Kavan. I'm almost always unattracted to all models (i.e. both sexes), but people think I'm especially nuts for disliking female models. They look gangly and masculine to me. Same reason I find greyhounds to be unattractive dogs. Not a fan of tall/thin -- it looks sickly and gangly. A normal, healthy, proportional height and weight are nice.
MM look feminine... I always assume they're gay. They're more attractive than female models in that they don't look as sickly. In general, a feminine guy looks better than a masculine woman.
Female anchorwomen with lantern jaws are unattractive, too. Nothing beats a healthy, classical feminine face. Of course this is all subjective. But I think guys who like lantern jaw women are secretly gay or at least more on that gradient.
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That's interesting. I'm almost always unattracted to all models (i.e. both sexes), but people think I'm especially nuts for disliking female models. Now I know why. MM look feminine... I always assume they're gay.
MM's can look UBER or hyper masculine which is also attractive to gay men. There was some study out of Harvard (forgot the name of it) where they found gay men find uber masculine very attractive as in preference and more so than females do.
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That's interesting, Kavan. I'm almost always unattracted to all models (i.e. both sexes), but people think I'm especially nuts for disliking female models. They look gangly and masculine to me. Same reason I find greyhounds to be unattractive dogs. Not a fan of tall/thin -- it looks sickly and gangly. A normal, healthy, proportional height and weight are nice.
MM look feminine... I always assume they're gay. They're more attractive than female models in that they don't look as sickly. In general, a feminine guy looks better than a masculine woman.
Female anchorwomen with lantern jaws are unattractive, too. Nothing beats a healthy, classical feminine face. Of course this is all subjective. But I think guys who like lantern jaw women are secretly gay or at least more on that gradient.
Fashion industry models are those that the SAME SEX admires or on some level, WISHED they looked like the model whether it's a concious or unconcious wish, the latter being the operating principle of the fashion industry; appealing on subliminal level to the MARKET the industry wishes to sell to.
With female anchor women with the large jaws, I believe that has to do with 'handsome' women as in those with somewhat of a 'masculine' element will be LISTENED to more over ones that look like a Playboy bunnies. The latter would be too distracting.
My perspective is one of why a type of look is chosen in accordance to the AUDIENCE or market it's meant to appeal to.
I realize that most (straight) men will have a preference for the PB bunny type over tall thin females with masculine facial elements. Also, if a guy is 'too' good looking as in like a MM, women might think he's gay. Ever heard a woman say:
'He's so good looking, he must be gay.'
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^ All of that makes sense to me. Seems accurate.
I can also see submissive guys liking the anchorwoman type.
Very young women (TeenBeat years) tend to like feminine guys, and I think this has to due to actual male sexuality being too intimidating at that age. It's almost like they need a female guy as a transition. You never see guys with chest hair and beards in those magazines. It's always Dicaprio types who are basically girls with penises. What's interesting is boys around that same age conversely already like the prototypical female.
This must have something subliminal/subconscious to do with parenting or something?
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So you think females find very thin women attractive? I think models have to be thin simply because clothes look good on tall, thin people, plus if they were too muscular / had curves, people would be looking at the muscles / curves and not the clothes. Also, very thin people do not look as thin in pictures as in real life.
Not on an overt lesbian like level. But on a level where they might want similar thinness. I'm referring to the segment of women who subscribe to the images of what the FASHION INDUSTRY puts out. Applies to men too.
People would not buy the clothes if the model wearing them didn't look good in them. So, there is a level where the market segment of those items, when the market is SAME SEX, finds the models attractive.
Ever heard of females starving themselves, getting anorexic, getting boat loads of PS due to the fashion industries images of what's 'beautiful'? Ever heard of guys torturing themselves when they compare their looks to men they see hired by the FASHION INDUSTRY (MMs)?
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Not on an overt lesbian like level.
Yeah, like I am not gay at all, but I find MM objectively more attractive than FM. The reason for me is they always have really nice beards. My beard is average, so I get jealous.:D I'm also slightly jealous of their height since I'm just average height. It has nothing to do with gayness and it's more just jealousy over a few features you wish you had or you have and wish were a bit better. Also, I think there is some of that "David" (statue) thing going on where as a man you can recognize and appreciate an ideal form.
The incels who worship that kind of thing are another level. It goes beyond appreciating the form and beyond minor/normal jealousy. They want to dominate women and other issues, and they view looks as a means to take that out. IMO they want to look perfect as a means to take out latent sociopathy and narcissism.
I could be wrong. It's a half baked idea based on observation alone.
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^ All of that makes sense to me. Seems accurate.
I can also see submissive guys liking the anchorwoman type.
Very young women (TeenBeat years) tend to like feminine guys, and I think this has to due to actual male sexuality being too intimidating at that age. It's almost like they need a female guy as a transition. You never see guys with chest hair and beards in those magazines. It's always Dicaprio types who are basically girls with penises. What's interesting is boys around that same age conversely already like the prototypical female.
This must have something subliminal/subconscious to do with parenting or something?
Well ya, an androgynous look; some splash element of the opposite sex will appeal to a type of audience. So, teen females and even non teen females will be attracted to someone like Dicaprio. Secret submissives watching the news might be fapping to Megyn Kelly.
People in advertising and marketing are masters in all the subliminal elements of the audience they wish to appeal to.
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Yeah, like I am not gay at all, but I find MM objectively more attractive than FM. The reason for me is they always have really nice beards. My beard is average, so I get jealous.:D I'm also slightly jealous of their height since I'm just average height. It has nothing to do with gayness and it's more just jealousy over a few features you wish you had or you have and wish were a bit better. Also, I think there is some of that "David" (statue) thing going on where as a man you can recognize and appreciate an ideal form.
The incels who worship that kind of thing are another level. It goes beyond appreciating the form and beyond minor/normal jealousy. They want to dominate women and other issues, and they view looks as a means to take that out. IMO they want to look perfect as a means to take out latent sociopathy and narcissism.
I could be wrong. It's a half baked idea based on observation alone.
You're actually right for most of it. The MM look WANNABES (often incels) aren't often those wanting to get gigs as a MM. But rather kind of like you say for narcissistic reasons eg. for very attractive women to fall at their feet. Guy's objective being multi one night stands. 'Feathers in cap' situation. Bragging rights. They're not looking to relate to a woman. Just to bait. A lot of them have a DISLIKE or resent for women and are not looking for long term relationships. Just 'pump and dump'for woman and to 'mog' other men.
So, ya, that's different from just admiring the aesthetics of another male.
Fashion industry works on principle of the audience wishing to covet or have what the model has. So, yes, some envy of the audience would work in favor of audience identifying the product being sold with what they envy (look of model). That's how the fashion and beauty industry sells things.
Imagine IF the fashion industry ONLY appealed to people who looked JUST LIKE MODELS. They'ed have very FEW sales.
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sorry I look so s**t
Accept this time, but don't let it happen again.
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And this is your own (biased) perception of male attractiveness, right? ever heard of guys like Lucas Machado or Luca Fersko? Most agencies I know of have this type of guy in their mainboards.
Anyway, the majority of (attractive) women are dating totally average, even under-average dudes, look-wise. They don't give a sh*t about jaw angles, lower thirds, whatever.. haha.. This thread is hilarious <3
When asked to choose between a MM-dude with plain personality & average-looking dude with interesting personality, 8 out of 10 women are going to chose the latter, especially long-term.
Male incel brains are not able to comprehend this ("guy must be rich or have enormous d*ck!?") because they lack the most important feature that attracts (attractive) women- PERSONALITY!
Again: this thread is hilarious!
It's not about being beautiful, but about feeling beautiful. If you feel like a bag of crap, then it's reflected in your personality.
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Ever heard of females starving themselves, getting anorexic, getting boat loads of PS due to the fashion industries images of what's 'beautiful'? Ever heard of guys torturing themselves when they compare their looks to men they see hired by the FASHION INDUSTRY (MMs)?
I haven't just heard of them, I did gender studies at uni and wrote papers about this very issue. I see it in a different way than you see it, but won't go into more details here, this thread has already gone way too far lol.
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this is a very similar situation in which I’m in, but whose eyes are much more close set his or mine ?
A high nasal bridge can make the eyes look closer set.
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Incels are essentially people who want to be so hot it covers their personality flaws.
Excellent point.
But it goes deeper: Orthodox/hardcore incels seem to suffer from some weird form of gender dysphoria, I guess. They inherit character traits that are stereotypical feminine : obsession with beauty and, first and foremost, the need to get attention through beauty/looks ALONE (NOT through humor/intellect/personality..).
Whereas most women develop personality through puberty/early adulthood (and their preferences are shifting from MM fantasies to normal men), these guys remain undeveloped and thereby are unable to develop a (confident) male identity later on.
Their logic after hitting their 20s is simple then- getting sh*tload of plastic surgery to look like MM for women "to fall at their feet". But it's not just about dominating women, as you've said. It's also about damaging them, emotionally and as many as possible. This goes far beyond rather typical insecure guy issues.
So, why is that? It could be that they wanna take revenge on women (beautiful women in particular) out of jealousy because, as a biological heterosexual male, they cannot live out their (undeveloped) feminine identity. This constant complaint about good looking women and how easier life has to be for them, the attention they're getting from others by not doing anything at all..
Some of the most misogynistic male incels are (unconsciously) the most feminine inside, I believe.
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Today - sorry I look so s**t just came back from gym
Your result is very, very good. Excellent. In some ways, you look like a different person, more developed and robust, but still subtle. That’s all you can ask for. It’s not overdone, not fake, but it’s not perfect either, and that’s okay. Anyone who tells you that your result is not good is off their rocker.
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Agree with Kavan. The OP looks good, but as I said, objectively his eyes are too close. He'd never be a male model because that is too distracting and actually produces anxiety to look at. Much more so than asymmetry or lower thirds off, etc. Despite that, he looks good and should go enjoy life at this point. The majority of people have to have flaws, by definition, for the minority of flawless people to stand out.
Lol come on GJ. Did the OP say his goal was to become a male model? I think a lot of people in this thread, who are themselves obsessed with the male model look, are projecting onto the OP. He wanted a more robust face, and he got it. I think he’s aware that this doesn’t mean he gets to now earn a living getting his photo taken. So why the need to tell the OP he won’t be a male model because his eyes are close set?
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^ All of that makes sense to me. Seems accurate.
I can also see submissive guys liking the anchorwoman type.
Very young women (TeenBeat years) tend to like feminine guys, and I think this has to due to actual male sexuality being too intimidating at that age. It's almost like they need a female guy as a transition. You never see guys with chest hair and beards in those magazines. It's always Dicaprio types who are basically girls with penises. What's interesting is boys around that same age conversely already like the prototypical female.
This must have something subliminal/subconscious to do with parenting or something?
No you’re exactly right. Younger women like more feminine men because they (women) are not mature/ developed enough to risk being taken advantage of by a more masculine guy and being left to raise his kid on her own. Feminine guys are less aggressive, more likely to stick around in the event of an accidental pregnancy, and easier to control. It’s basically a transition stage. The Justin Bieber phase. Almost every woman would admit to going through this phase and then moving on to liking more masculine guys as they progress into their twenties
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That's interesting, Kavan. I'm almost always unattracted to all models (i.e. both sexes), but people think I'm especially nuts for disliking female models. They look gangly and masculine to me. Same reason I find greyhounds to be unattractive dogs. Not a fan of tall/thin -- it looks sickly and gangly. A normal, healthy, proportional height and weight are nice.
They look great when they retire and gain weight. It’s all about bones. An anorexic model is still good looking. An anorexic average person becomes ugly.
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This all dichotomy between incels and non incels is bs in my opinion. We're all the same people, with the same emotions and insecurities. That includes negative emotions like jealousy, anger and agression as well. It's a competitive world. When people talk about other people in a negative way, they tend to forget they themselves are not perfect emotionally. Nobody on this board is going to tell me they never felt angry, disatisfied, jealous, revengefull or whatever.
If there wasn't some level of frustration, dissatisfaction, jealousy etc., people won't be on this board seeking for plastic surgery. This all 'incel' thing is a label. I don't care about labels, I don't care about how people call themselves. We're all human beings and neither of us is perfect, neither emotionally, physically, intellectually nor personality wise. We don't need to make ourselves look better by looking upon others and dehumanize other people, labeling other people or whatever.
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incels are the dumbest f**ked up people in the world. they legit need their heads examined, not their faces.
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Also, Sal's eyes are NOT too close set. In my opinion he in fact COULD BE COME A MALE MODEL. His results are f**king amazing and part of that is because his other features, eyes nose etc. are great as Kavan emphasized. Remember, this dude is taking crappy selfies and he looks great in them. When you're a model of any kind you f**king have an ARMY of people working to make you look beautiful.
OP is good looking enough to get any chick he wants. But if he's f**ked up in the personality department: not a good talker, doesn't have good game, boring, not funny, doesn't dress cool or have a sense of style, isn't ambitious and going somewhere in life etc. etc. etc. his f**king jaw implant won't mean s**t nor will his looks. At least not if he wants to hold a chick's attention. His face and youth might draw some interest for sure. But if he's a numbnut in other respects his looks won't mean s**t.
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And the above is something incels don't want to hear. Which is why they are legit the dumbest f**king people in the world.
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I’m not an incel and I think their outlook is extremely destructive, but I ALSO think there’s a big generational disconnect about how dating works. Older people simply do not realize the extent to which human interaction (especially in the daring sphere) is primarily mediated via the internet with younger people. For people my age, apps like Tinder and Bumble are far and away the primary method of finding a partner, especially after college. Approaching a girl with no prior online connection is generally considered creepy or out of the ‘norm’, unless you’re drunk at a club or party. I’ve noticed this is even more pronounced in my sister’s generation, and she’s only 5 years younger than me.
In this context, looks really do matter A LOT; far more than personality. Your shot attracting a girl is a picture which she will evaluate in under a second. Compounding this issue for young men is the selectively preference of females versus males. Females really are far more selective than men, and social media/online dating makes it so they never have to ‘settle’ for a guy of her own level of attractiveness. She has a steady stream of more attractive men willing to hook up with her. The male obsession with looks is easily understood because it’s the only way to get female attention.
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I’m not an incel and I think their outlook is extremely destructive, but I ALSO think there’s a big generational disconnect about how dating works. Older people simply do not realize the extent to which human interaction (especially in the daring sphere) is primarily mediated via the internet with younger people. For people my age, apps like Tinder and Bumble are far and away the primary method of finding a partner, especially after college. Approaching a girl with no prior online connection is generally considered creepy or out of the ‘norm’, unless you’re drunk at a club or party. I’ve noticed this is even more pronounced in my sister’s generation, and she’s only 5 years younger than me.
In this context, looks really do matter A LOT; far more than personality. Your shot attracting a girl is a picture which she will evaluate in under a second. Compounding this issue for young men is the selectively preference of females versus males. Females really are far more selective than men, and social media/online dating makes it so they never have to ‘settle’ for a guy of her own level of attractiveness. She has a steady stream of more attractive men willing to hook up with her. The male obsession with looks is easily understood because it’s the only way to get female attention.
yeah fair enough looks are imp. no one denies that. it's so funny though cause just 10 years back most people i knew thought internet dating was the creepiest f**king thing in the world.
i regularly date hot chicks in their 20s and I f**king slay, even though I'm probably older than you are post-bimax.
I mean I guess I pick up chicks out an about way more than I do online. And approaching and talking to girls in the "dating sphere" as you say isn't considered creepy at all. I mean maybe it's the way some people do it. But if you strike up a conversation about something that interests the other person and then suggest the two of you meet to pursue said interest (whether it be cooking, a restaurant, a movie, some kind of cool place to check out, etc. etc. i mean you gotta have interests right) that's usually all it takes I find. It may not be framed as a "date" at first but it usually ends up turning into one.
Also, I'm by no means really good looking but I find the whole tinder and bumble thing works for me too. Though I do list some cool things in my profile and my pics are decent --me out doing stuff with friends and s**t to show I have a life.
But I understand what you're saying. You need to break from what you call the "norms" of your generation and what you perceive as how things are done and forge your own path. If you're friendly, interesting, outgoing, women will want to engage with you.
You know it's funny, I just remembered, I met some neighbours who live in my apartment --two really hot chicks who are room-mates. I talk to them all the time in my elevator. I mean one time I just blurted out something ridiculous like "f**k I am jonesing for a pizza-pocket" and they both laughed and we started talking about nearby grocery stores. Anyway, the really hot one (i mean seriously hot, probably like 20-24) told me that guys are so afraid to talk to girls. And that for one whole year during her lunch break from her new job she would walk around this nearby mall alone just to see if any guy would start up a conversation with her or approach her. And she said not a single one every did. I was pretty surprised by that.
You gotta play the probabilities game. And don't fear rejection, it doesn't say a thing about who you really are, or even about your looks frankly. Just keep practicing and you'll get better and better. I know a lot of Chads as the incels call them who are hopeless with girls.
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It's like incels seem to think women have it easy. They have no idea what women go through - the time, the effort, the expense - in order to look good. From when we are very young girls (like age 7), we are conditioned to believe our bodies and faces are flawed. We then purchase all these products, do all these treatments, in order to be presentable and attractive and try not to age. I could reel you off a long list of beauty chores - it's bloody high-maintenance being a woman! And it's like suddenly men are having to put in the effort to improve the way they look, and some of them are completely freaking out.
I think it's going to get worse for both genders and future generations, actually. Social media took over so quickly, you just wonder what's next?
it's so funny though cause just 10 years back most people i knew thought internet dating was the creepiest f**king thing in the world.
Lol this! I met one of my ex's online, and we had to pretend we met "through friends". It was just considered way too weird back then.
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Whereas most women develop personality through puberty/early adulthood (and their preferences are shifting from MM fantasies to normal men)
Maybe you just meant good-looking men, but I speak confidently for a lot of women I know when I say most women don't lust over MM's. 99.5% of women wouldn't even be able to name a single working male model. Women simply aren't exposed to them. Only when they cross over into acting or music and become more dimensional, is when we know of them (think Channing, think Jamie Dornan). Male models are for men.
This constant complaint about good looking women and how easier life has to be for them, the attention they're getting from others by not doing anything at all..
Some of the most misogynistic male incels are (unconsciously) the most feminine inside, I believe.
No. There's nothing inherently feminine about them. They are just experiencing similar insecurity about the way they look in society - something women have been subject to for generations. The difference is theirs' is more sudden onset, whereas women's body insecurities are ingrained from a young age. Women deal with it. Incels take out 'revenge'. Nothing alike. There is something FAR more flawed with them than just their looks.
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it's like suddenly men are having to put in the effort to improve the way they look, and some of them are completely freaking out.
Exactly right! Both men and women are interested in looks (as well as personality, to an extent) when it comes to choosing a partner, it's not a conscious decision, this is how biology works for both genders. But over hundreds of years, men built up this narrative about how women don't care about looks, they aren't interested in sex (except if it's with a man they have an emotional connection with), they aren't 'visual', they like men with a sense of humour and a 'great personality' etc.
For hundreds of years, women were financially and physically dependent on men, they weren't allowed to choose their partners, weren't allowed to express their preferences for a mate. Now it's slowly changing and some men are panicking. There are two extreme responses: one is the 'incel' response i.e. women are only interested in extremely good looking men, how unfair this is and so on. The other one is to keep repeating the old mantra: only shallow / 'bad' women are interested in looks, nice women only care about 'personality'.
These narratives are both about men's insecurities, not about what women actually want. Women are human beings just like men are, they want an attractive partner that turns them on visually / emotionally / intellectually. It's quite simple really, we are all human and not that different from each other.
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Exactly right! Both men and women are interested in looks (as well as personality, to an extent) when it comes to choosing a partner, it's not a conscious decision, this is how biology works for both genders. But over hundreds of years, men built up this narrative about how women don't care about looks, they aren't interested in sex (except if it's with a man they have an emotional connection with), they aren't 'visual', they like men with a sense of humour and a 'great personality' etc.
For hundreds of years, women were financially and physically dependent on men, they weren't allowed to choose their partners, weren't allowed to express their preferences for a mate. Now it's slowly changing and some men are panicking. There are two extreme responses: one is the 'incel' response i.e. women are only interested in extremely good looking men, how unfair this is and so on. The other one is to keep repeating the old mantra: only shallow / 'bad' women are interested in looks, nice women only care about 'personality'.
These narratives are both about men's insecurities, not about what women actually want. Women are human beings just like men are, they want an attractive partner that turns them on visually / emotionally / intellectually. It's quite simple really, we are all human and not that different from each other.
I agree. I also think now that women don’t need men to provide for them, the biggest winners will be alpha males and women will simply share them. And no, these men are not necessarily male models or have great personality or whatever. They are simply men popular with women for whatever reason.
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It's like incels seem to think women have it easy. They have no idea what women go through - the time, the effort, the expense - in order to look good. From when we are very young girls (like age 7), we are conditioned to believe our bodies and faces are flawed. We then purchase all these products, do all these treatments, in order to be presentable and attractive and try not to age. I could reel you off a long list of beauty chores - it's bloody high-maintenance being a woman! And it's like suddenly men are having to put in the effort to improve the way they look, and some of them are completely freaking out.
So this comes from the polar opposite experiences men and women have in the online dating sphere. Incels hear women complaining about how dating sucks or men suck etc, but an average looking woman on tinder will match with 95% of men and be showered with male attention. At the same time, it’s possible for an average looking man to go months without a single match because the women have their pick of highly attractive men. Women are easily able to ‘date upward’ in the online sphere, leaving average men in the dust.
I haven’t used Tinder in a few years since I have a girlfriend, but I’ve read that it’s even worse than it used to be. I also have perfectly normal looking and socially adjusted friends that haven’t been with a girl in years because they primarily used tinder/bumble to try to meet girls. I don’t know what it would be like out there for myself today if my girlfriend and I broke up. I’ve never had a problem with women in the past, but I could see how resentment could begin to set in after months of rejection and loneliness.
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I also have perfectly normal looking and socially adjusted friends that haven’t been with a girl in years because they primarily used tinder/bumble to try to meet girls. I don’t know what it would be like out there for myself today if my girlfriend and I broke up. I’ve never had a problem with women in the past, but I could see how resentment could begin to set in after months of rejection and loneliness.
So maybe instead of being 'resentful', they should try different kinds of dating if online dating does not work for them? Lazlo gave some really good examples, I think for the majority of men 'real life' dating works much better, no matter how popular online dating is nowadays. It's not enough to blame women for wanting to have casual sex with good looking men. If roles were reversed, for example if I realised I don't get any dates online because men only want to hook up with supermodels and I am not a supermodel, I would try to change strategies and try to meet men in different ways. I would not just sit around blaming men and feeling resentful.
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So maybe instead of being 'resentful', they should try different kinds of dating if online dating does not work for them? Lazlo gave some really good examples, I think for the majority of men 'real life' dating works much better, no matter how popular online dating is nowadays. It's not enough to blame women for wanting to have casual sex with good looking men. If roles were reversed, for example if I realised I don't get any dates online because men only want to hook up with supermodels and I am not a supermodel, I would try to change strategies and try to meet men in different ways. I would not just sit around blaming men and feeling resentful.
Yes, I agree in-person flirting gives much higher returns for men. And for what it’s worth my friends are not resentful or ‘incel’ types. My point is that the pervasiveness of online dating has blown a massive rift in the way average men and women experience dating and that this is a major driver of male resentment.
It’s easy to say men should just go out in the world to meet women, but the social dynamic is different when the expectation is that the initial courtship will take place online. It’s really hard to explain to someone not of my generation or younger. Even simple things like calling someone on the phone (especially someone you’re interested in) instead of texting are considered ‘odd’.
I think the best chance for most men is to meet women via some sort of social hobby outside of work. I used to do Thai boxing before my surgery and made lots of male and female friends doing that. Almost nobody I know does something like that though because of time and money constraints. Online dating is so much more convenient when you’re working 10-12 hours per day and you get home just to recover mentally for the next day.
It’s really no surprise to me that the number of involuntarily celibate men has skyrocketed in the past decade. Meanwhile, women are unsatisfied too because they are all matching with the most attractive guys, who in turn will have their pick of women. So maybe they’ll hook up and then leave because they have a hundred other matches. Meanwhile if a woman matched someone of her own level of attractiveness, he might stick around longer because he doesn’t have a million other options.
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This all dichotomy between incels and non incels is bs in my opinion. We're all the same people, with the same emotions and insecurities.
If there wasn't some level of frustration, dissatisfaction, jealousy etc., people won't be on this board seeking for plastic surgery. This all 'incel' thing is a label. I don't care about labels, I don't care about how people call themselves. We're all human beings and neither of us is perfect, neither emotionally, physically, intellectually nor personality wise. We don't need to make ourselves look better by looking upon others and dehumanize other people, labeling other people or whatever.
I so agree with everything you wrote! Personally when I said 'incel', I was referring to some common narratives advocated on incel websites / forums. There is a certain 'incel ideology', like a man has to be extremely good looking to attract women and average men don't get a chance etc. Personally, I find that there's a lot of truth in some of the things they say, it's just the way they're trying to deal with it that is unhealthy / unhelpful. But you're totally right, incel is just a label, there's a lot more to those people that comment on that kind on website than just being an 'incel'. Also, if we didn't have insecurities etc., we wouldn't be commenting on a jaw surgery website.
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It’s really hard to explain to someone not of my generation or younger. Even simple things like calling someone on the phone (especially someone you’re interested in) instead of texting are considered ‘odd’.
I think the best chance for most men is to meet women via some sort of social hobby outside of work.
Meanwhile, women are unsatisfied too because they are all matching with the most attractive guys, who in turn will have their pick of women. So maybe they’ll hook up and then leave because they have a hundred other matches. Meanwhile if a woman matched someone of her own level of attractiveness, he might stick around longer because he doesn’t have a million other options.
I'm not that old lol, I did a fair bit of online dating (mostly tinder) after my divorce before I met my current partner. My boyfriend and I actually met via a mutual hobby, and I met my ex husband in the pub. But online dating worked well for me especially for hook ups, it does work very well for that for women and if all parties involved can accept it for what it is, there's no resentment.
Women are always told that if they choose the 'nice guys' / average guys, they will stick around longer etc., but my actual experience is, average guys are just as likely to ghost, to be assholes, to waste your time and only want sex than the better looking, more interesting guys. It does not work that way that ugly guys are nice with a good personality and good looking guys are assholes. There's just no connection.
Also, often 'average' guys are average because of things they chose for themselves, like they don't care about personal hygiene, wear crappy clothes, don't get a proper haircut, don't exercise and so on. So it's actually their personality that's reflected in their average looks, and I would personally not want to date someone like that in the hope that he'll not dump me because he has no other options. For example, my current boyfriend could never get a job as a model (and he would not want to either) but he looks after himself, keeps fit, dresses well. I think this would be a good starting point for most guys but there are loads of men that aren't willing to do this much and then blame women for not being able to pull.
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if you strike up a conversation about something that interests the other person and then suggest the two of you meet to pursue said interest (whether it be cooking, a restaurant, a movie, some kind of cool place to check out, etc. etc. i mean you gotta have interests right) that's usually all it takes I find. It may not be framed as a "date" at first but it usually ends up turning into one.
You gotta play the probabilities game. And don't fear rejection, it doesn't say a thing about who you really are, or even about your looks frankly. Just keep practicing and you'll get better and better. I know a lot of Chads as the incels call them who are hopeless with girls.
That's it, I think that's all there's to it. This is actually how my current boyfriend and I got together, I never thought it was a 'date' lol. I know it's easier said than done, I actually tried to chat up guys in the past and it's nerve wrecking and you get rejected a lot etc. (men obviously more often than women). But if someone does not even try, obviously they'll not get anywhere.
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Did the OP say his goal was to become a male model? I think a lot of people in this thread, who are themselves obsessed with the male model look, are projecting onto the OP
Exactly, that's why I was so surprised that the whole male model thing even came up. OP looks good, as good or better than lots of guys that work as male models. He never mentioned models. I had absolutely no idea until I read the comments on this thread that so many guys thought male model looks are something to aspire to.
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So maybe instead of being 'resentful', they should try different kinds of dating if online dating does not work for them? Lazlo gave some really good examples, I think for the majority of men 'real life' dating works much better, no matter how popular online dating is nowadays. It's not enough to blame women for wanting to have casual sex with good looking men. If roles were reversed, for example if I realised I don't get any dates online because men only want to hook up with supermodels and I am not a supermodel, I would try to change strategies and try to meet men in different ways. I would not just sit around blaming men and feeling resentful.
To preemptively address any comments, I do not resent women and I actually have friends that are women. However, I can see why this happens. If you go to any dating advice platform or simply ask women (and my friends are perfect examples of this) both men and women will say to adjust personality or simply be confident, this despite knowing full well that's not what really changes things as both genders are shallow. If you consistently heard this over and over but the outcome didn't change, you'd feel resentment as well.
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I'm not that old lol, I did a fair bit of online dating (mostly tinder) after my divorce before I met my current partner. My boyfriend and I actually met via a mutual hobby, and I met my ex husband in the pub. But online dating worked well for me especially for hook ups, it does work very well for that for women and if all parties involved can accept it for what it is, there's no resentment.
Women are always told that if they choose the 'nice guys' / average guys, they will stick around longer etc., but my actual experience is, average guys are just as likely to ghost, to be assholes, to waste your time and only want sex than the better looking, more interesting guys. It does not work that way that ugly guys are nice with a good personality and good looking guys are assholes. There's just no connection.
Also, often 'average' guys are average because of things they chose for themselves, like they don't care about personal hygiene, wear crappy clothes, don't get a proper haircut, don't exercise and so on. So it's actually their personality that's reflected in their average looks, and I would personally not want to date someone like that in the hope that he'll not dump me because he has no other options. For example, my current boyfriend could never get a job as a model (and he would not want to either) but he looks after himself, keeps fit, dresses well. I think this would be a good starting point for most guys but there are loads of men that aren't willing to do this much and then blame women for not being able to pull.
I workout 5x a week and 2x/day on Sat/Sun. I whiten my teeth, I take about 1 hour each day to do various things (clay masks, moisturizer, straighten my hair, etc), I've even gone as far as covering up the small blemishes the best way I can, and have even curled my lashes. Sometimes being 'average' is a result of hard work. I do not online date as I spent 3 full years without matching once. I tried the 'real life' method, and can tell you I've experienced rejection more times than most. But, I completely agree - if everyone understood what people (men/women) are actually looking for, people would be far less resentful.
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If you go to any dating advice platform or simply ask women (and my friends are perfect examples of this) both men and women will say to adjust personality or simply be confident, this despite knowing full well that's not what really changes things as both genders are shallow. If you consistently heard this over and over but the outcome didn't change, you'd feel resentment as well.
No I wouldn't feel resentment, I'd just realise it's useless advice lol. I would just accept that online dating is mostly about looks and if a guy isn't really good looking, his chances of hooking up with lots of women online are going to be slim. Nothing to do with personality. Personality and confidence comes to play mostly in offline dating, Lazlo gave some good examples for that.
By the way, women are given loads of useless dating advice too, so they could also become super resentful about it if they wanted to. They're also told they just have to be nice and men will want to marry them (wrong - loads of men actually prefer women that are 'b*tchy', demanding, assertive or whatever), they have to be 18 year old supermodels, etc. I guess people just have to figure it out for themselves as they go along. When I look at the couples around me, a lot of people just simply got lucky (that goes for me as well), they didn't do the right thing or follow a strategy or whatever.
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I workout 5x a week and 2x/day on Sat/Sun. I whiten my teeth, I take about 1 hour each day to do various things (clay masks, moisturizer, straighten my hair, etc), I've even gone as far as covering up the small blemishes the best way I can, and have even curled my lashes. Sometimes being 'average' is a result of hard work. I do not online date as I spent 3 full years without matching once. I tried the 'real life' method, and can tell you I've experienced rejection more times than most. But, I completely agree - if everyone understood what people (men/women) are actually looking for, people would be far less resentful.
Wow. I must say I'm stunned! Maybe you live in the wrong city / country?
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Wow. I must say I'm stunned! Maybe you live in the wrong city / country?
I really think it’s just impossible to see things from the other side. Being an average guy, and by average I mean average looks, personality, etc, in the online dating sphere is a soul-crushing experience.
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I really think it’s just impossible to see things from the other side. Being an average guy, and by average I mean average looks, personality, etc, in the online dating sphere is a soul-crushing experience.
I rather think he's in the wrong place at the wrong time. I mean, I know plenty of average and below average guys in terms of looks etc. and they're mostly married (and trying to cheat on their wives lol). It shouldn't be this hard. If it was this difficult for me, I'd try to move. Worst case scenario, to Thailand or something. Seriously.
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today
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I also think now that women don’t need men to provide for them
Men don't need women, either. Have you seen the RealDolls they're making these days??!
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Men don't need women, either. Have you seen the RealDolls they're making these days??!
Can they cook?
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Can they cook?
But they cant love :(
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But they cant love :(
They're working on that.
Pretty soon incels will have the cure -- AI Real Dolls.
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Men don't need women, either. Have you seen the RealDolls they're making these days??!
I know you're joking, but April didn't say women didn't need men. She said they didn't need men to provide for them. Women who want men to provide for them are looked down upon and ridiculed as 'gold diggers', so I'm guessing men don't actually enjoy 'providing for' women? Also, in the past (and in some countries in the present) the issue was not simply that women lived an easy life and men provided everything for them. The problem was that women couldn't have money or property in their own names, they couldn't inherit (or even if they did, their husband would automatically get their inheritance), if they worked and received an income - lower than a man would get for the same work - their male family members could keep the money the women earned. Just because this has changed, does not mean that women don't need men any more. Of course if all a man has to offer is money, then maybe it's better for him and everyone else concerned if he just buys a doll. But most men I know have a lot more to offer than money.
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I rather think he's in the wrong place at the wrong time. I mean, I know plenty of average and below average guys in terms of looks etc. and they're mostly married (and trying to cheat on their wives lol). It shouldn't be this hard. If it was this difficult for me, I'd try to move. Worst case scenario, to Thailand or something. Seriously.
My friends and I live in a metropolitan area (Posnick was my surgeon, so it should be pretty easy to figure out), and it's still an issue. All of them did just fine with women during college because dating apps weren't really necessary. We met girls through class, campus activities and fraternity functions.
For them, it's the atomization of post-college life that requires the use of dating apps which leads to despair.
All of my friends are either:
A: Married to someone they met in college
B: Dating someone they met in college (me included)
C: Single
Most incels (and guys in the redpill 'manosphere') are in their 20s, and I think it's no coincidence that this is exactly the point at which apps become the dominant medium for dating. Suddenly, average guys are no longer receiving interest from women around their level of attractiveness because of the disparity discussed earlier. Likewise, women are now competing for commitment from the smaller pool of top-tier men. Seems like a recipe for bad outcomes all around.
Around 30 is when women's attractiveness typically begins to decline (note that I am NOT saying that women over 30 cannot be attractive, that is obviously false. See: Jennifer Aniston). At that point, many women begin looking around to 'settle down', and the pool of men they consider a potential partner expands because their own attractiveness is in a steady decline. I would not be surprised to see the percentage of men in long-term relationships tick upwards around this age. This too is a source of anger for incels/redpill types because these women were 'used up' by 'chads' in their most attractive years, and are now willing to settle for a 'beta' provider.
Their lexicon is crude and insulting, but it's hard not to see some truth to it. The incel response to the situation is to take the 'black pill', meaning give up because it's over, or do desperate facial surgery etc. The 'red pill' response is to focus on self-improvement, game, and other tactics to get with women. However the 'red pill' also comes with a unique blend of toxic behaviors and psychological manipulation, all with the goal of becoming as desirable as possible to women. The problem is that red pill strategies do actually work (very well) for getting laid; we just might consider them immoral. I saw one post on that forum recently that said something like "I had a choice to be a guy that always complained about assholes being the ones getting laid, or to be that asshole getting laid. I chose the latter".
I don't know what the answer is for guys in their 20s. My approach is to take the 'red pill' self-improvement route while minimizing the hyper-misogynist aspect that infects that community. I will say some 'red pill' ideas have actually been useful in managing my own relationship and understanding why my girlfriend does/says certain things, and just interacting with women in general.
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woa ..
(Post bimax, are you serious??)
Guys .. you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. srsly.
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Most incels (and guys in the redpill 'manosphere') are in their 20s
Around 30 is when women's attractiveness typically begins to decline
Seems an easy solution is they date cougars.
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woa ..
(Post bimax, are you serious??)
Guys .. you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. srsly.
I'm presenting the incel/redpill view and drawing out what I think may have some (analytical) merit. I'm not in any way condoning the behavior or rhetoric of those communities.
Seems an easy solution is they date cougars
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Some incels actually do this, and it is a way for them to get laid. The real issue for a lot of incels as I understand it though isn't actually sex, which is why hookers don't solve their problem. Their problem is that they are undesirable to women. I think most incels would rather be lusted after by women and be celibate than to have sex with women who do not desire them.
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I think most incels would rather be lusted after by women and be celibate than to have sex with women who do not desire them.
That sounds accurate.
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As people said - you looked good before even without touching your face - and the results you got are great .
I wonder how does it feel with such a change of look - it changes the whole charcther of your face - its wierd to start living and looking at yourself in the mirror as the person you always wanted to be.
Amyway - if I can ask something about the implants - I thought i would never get close to implants.. but after seeing this - i see there are great jobs with implants...
Does the implants go ALL ALONG the jaw line from the chin to the ear ? Or are the implants just in small areas and the skin stretches accordingly ?
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Guys .. you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. srsly.
imgur
What am I supposed to be looking at and considering with these imgur photos?
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Seems an easy solution is they date cougars.
Uhm, do you mean that older women are so desperate they'll date average or below average guys in their twenties? If someone wants to try this strategy, I have bad news. I am not even that good looking myself (I'm reasonably pretty but not a stunner and have never been) and not short of offers for 'fun' from really attractive men in their twenties (some of them are young enough to be my sons now). I think men should just accept that casual sex is mostly a game for a small percentage of men that are above average either in terms of looks or maybe personality or money or fame or something extra.
I still find it hard to believe that if these 'incel' types wanted an actual relationship, it would be so difficult for them. It appears to me that what they want is - indeed, they feel entitled to - is hooking up with lots of really hot women. Well, that's not going to happen to most men, that's just the way it is. It's like I could go around demanding that a really hot young millionaire with a great personality should marry me, I could get angry and frustrated because the world owes me that, but it's not going to happen because young, hot millionaires are way out of my league for a relationship. (By the way I'm just giving an example - in reality, no young hot millionaire could compete with my actual boyfriend that I love to bits.)
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What am I supposed to be looking at and considering with these imgur photos?
Can't say.. Some stunning beauties and their boyfriends that have "maybe personality", enjoying themselves..(?) ;D
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As people said - you looked good before even without touching your face - and the results you got are great .
I wonder how does it feel with such a change of look - it changes the whole charcther of your face - its wierd to start living and looking at yourself in the mirror as the person you always wanted to be.
Amyway - if I can ask something about the implants - I thought i would never get close to implants.. but after seeing this - i see there are great jobs with implants...
Does the implants go ALL ALONG the jaw line from the chin to the ear ? Or are the implants just in small areas and the skin stretches accordingly ?
yh same , at first I did not want implants and I was brainwashed prior and was recommended an osteotomy - but this would never have been able to achieve to look I was aiming for . And yes my implant spans from ear to ear. Single implants don’t really give a natural look as parts of you jawline will not be proportional
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Thanks much for answering. I really see the results and sure you are so excited cause it's a terribfic outcome.. it's like getting the new "you" you probobly always felt you are.
I must say it sound so wierd getting implant all along the jaw from chin to ear but I guess it's not something that you feel it on.. and when you touch it it feels like your own tissue i guess.
I always afraid it would make my self also more "puffier" instead of molded in a beutiful way... i guess thats where the doctors experise comes in ...to give it a look that will give beatiful look and not just "puffy" look as like peope injecting into thier skin.
Anyway - enjoy the good result !
yh same , at first I did not want implants and I was brainwashed prior and was recommended an osteotomy - but this would never have been able to achieve to look I was aiming for . And yes my implant spans from ear to ear. Single implants don’t really give a natural look as parts of you jawline will not be proportional
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Uhm, do you mean that older women are so desperate they'll date average or below average guys in their twenties?
Upping range on dating apps is a pretty reliable way to get matches, especially women who are 30+. It's a strategy for getting laid but incels still feel 'cheated' out of the younger, more attractive women.
I still find it hard to believe that if these 'incel' types wanted an actual relationship, it would be so difficult for them.
Like I said, as a woman it's probably nearly impossible to imagine.
I think men should just accept that casual sex is mostly a game for a small percentage of men that are above average either in terms of looks or maybe personality or money or fame or something extra.
This is a pretty bold statement, and also the kind of sentiment that drives men to be incels or down the 'redpill' rabbit hole. Casual sex is great and many men put a lot of value in it. If we tell men "sorry, casual sex with normal women is only for a small % of really hot or rich men", can we really blame them for 'taking the red pill' and achieving that by any means necessary? To them, the choice is between that and sitting on the sidelines and watching other men get what they want.
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yh same , at first I did not want implants and I was brainwashed prior and was recommended an osteotomy - but this would never have been able to achieve to look I was aiming for . And yes my implant spans from ear to ear. Single implants don’t really give a natural look as parts of you jawline will not be proportional
How do the implants feel? Are you aware of them at all times? I've always been curious about what the experience is like.
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This is a pretty bold statement, and also the kind of sentiment that drives men to be incels or down the 'redpill' rabbit hole. Casual sex is great and many men put a lot of value in it. If we tell men "sorry, casual sex with normal women is only for a small % of really hot or rich men", can we really blame them for 'taking the red pill' and achieving that by any means necessary? To them, the choice is between that and sitting on the sidelines and watching other men get what they want.
It's not a sentiment lol, it's the way the world works. Nobody is entitled to casual sex, no matter how great it is. I think getting married to a great guy is amazing and I put a lot of value in it, but just because that's what I want, does not mean it's going to happen - great guys aren't obliged to marry me. Most women don't enjoy casual sex with average men. Do you think they should be forced to have it, so that men don't feel disappointed?
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It's not a sentiment lol, it's the way the world works. Nobody is entitled to casual sex, no matter how great it is. I think getting married to a great guy is amazing and I put a lot of value in it, but just because that's what I want, does not mean it's going to happen - great guys aren't obliged to marry me. Most women don't enjoy casual sex with average men. Do you think they should be forced to have it, so that men don't feel disappointed?
No, of course not. There you have it though. Women's selectivity combined with men's promiscuity causes the disparity. Throw in dating apps, and average women are getting tons of attention from top tier men. Why settle for dating (much less hooking up with) average men? And that's where you get this growing pool of bitter, lonely, disillusioned pool of young men. I think the percentage of men who were 'involuntarily celibate' (not necessarily incel-ideology) in the past year as of 2019 was something like 30%, which is a huge jump from just a decade ago.
I'm not saying I have a solution. You can't really turn back the clock on technology. I'm just explaining where this incel/redpill stuff is coming from. Nobody is 'entitled' to sex, and yet everybody desires sexual interest from the gender they're attracted to. Being permanently deprived of that takes a toll on mental health.
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Can't say.. Some stunning beauties and their boyfriends that have "maybe personality", enjoying themselves..(?) ;D
Huh. It all looked normal to me.
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Must say this group depresses me... i'm not saying in a bad way - i love it and many people here -it's the honsety and cruelty - that i understand that the whole world pays attention to each defualt as much as i criticized mysrlf... all the TRUTHES i've known about neuansces of beauty... before there were even articles , before the internet was so wide , before there were selfies.. i knew everythnig about the charactheristics of my face.. angles etc.. No when my look is totally gone... for years i can't barely look at my self in mirrors.. i can't get into rooms with looking in mirrors.. i dont wanna go out cause how my face has became.. i say people here are very sharp on diagnosing looks and they are so right.. but it's depressing.. about dating apps... about getting sex..
When I grew up - i grew up in a disney movie (i've gay and very delicate in the way i see beuty - and the press and parents etc all told us the "what matters is what inside" ...it's BS - it's a beautiful world thesedays.. people are all about beauty - and being beautyful helps them more comfortable to show other talents they have to the world.. i don't expalni my self good in english.. but tried.. this forum is like a very cruel mirror... I know i judge myself correctly - i mean - NO i'm not too harsh about myseld (as parents or pshycologisys will try to comfort people) and no - i REALLY have changed for the worse - and YES my face features have become much less "feel good" to look at (and im TOTALLY NOT talking about normal aging or a wrinkle here or there -i'm talking on the whole "structure" and propotions of face that makes them unpleasant to look at .. and to get attention from people .. 10 years ago - if i sat at a doctor and tried to start a conversation with a person - people were always attracted to talk to a pleasant face.. now - people just look at me and in a second ignore and look to the floor.. it affects all fields in life.
Sorry for pouring my heart a bit
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No, of course not. There you have it though. Women's selectivity combined with men's promiscuity causes the disparity. Throw in dating apps, and average women are getting tons of attention from top tier men. Why settle for dating (much less hooking up with) average men? And that's where you get this growing pool of bitter, lonely, disillusioned pool of young men. I think the percentage of men who were 'involuntarily celibate' (not necessarily incel-ideology) in the past year as of 2019 was something like 30%, which is a huge jump from just a decade ago.
The thing about having a lot of sexual experience is it becomes disgusting after a while. On both sides people are using one another and using mind games/tricks to get in the pants. Then all the diseases and disgusting smells (even high quality women!) and crazy, damaged people, trips to the clinic, scares with birthing children, etc. You can only do this so long before it's repulsive and also takes a toll, mentally. After a while you begin to look forward to settling down. There's that Weezer song "Tired of Sex" that sums this up nicely. That guy is a total dork and could get anyone he wanted due to fame, and he still got bored with it.
I understand incels desires. Those are normal. Everyone wants to walk into a room and have their pick of the litter. Totally normal. Probably the most human and normal emotion incels experience, actually. The abnormality is in how they cope with not getting that. Moping is about the worst, most unattractive response. Good women are repulsed by mopers and guys who are under their thumb. The only women into that are damaged in some way. Good women want/respect a guy who calls them out when warranted and visa versa. It's really as simple as having even power dynamics, which comes from self-respect, and you can have that even if you're gross. This is where incels approach totally frustrates me to watch. They could easily fix their plight.
I'm not saying I have a solution.
Learn three power chords and form a punk band.
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I understand incels desires. Those are normal. Everyone wants to walk into a room and have their pick of the litter. Totally normal. Probably the most human and normal emotion incels experience, actually. The abnormality is in how they cope with not getting that. Moping is about the worst, most unattractive response. Good women are repulsed by mopers and guys who are under their thumb. The only women into that are damaged in some way. Good women want/respect a guy who calls them out when warranted and visa versa. It's really as simple as having even power dynamics, which comes from self-respect, and you can have that even if you're gross. This is where incels approach totally frustrates me to watch. They could easily fix their plight.
Yes this is where the 'red pill' comes in. The good parts of the red pill are all about self-improvement. That means lifting, dieting, practicing social skills, approaching women in public, etc. Then they also have a whole lexicon which underpins their theoretical framework. This includes terms like:
SMP: Sexual Market Place - an analysis of the dating market place based on individual's sexual 'market value'
Frame: The frame of reference or control for any social interaction. They believe women are more attracted to men who maintain a strong frame and will naturally submit to a man's frame if it is strong enough.
S**t Test: Insults or jibes thrown at men by women, which men can pass by maintaining a strong frame. These include things like "you're too short" or "you know I'm not coming home with you right?" or "I only date athletes" etc.
Then there are terms we might consider more misogynistic based on our sensibilities. Some of these include:
ASD: Anti Slut Defense - the front women put up so as not to appear as a slut to either themselves, their friends or the public. E.g, a girl might turn down a chance to go home with a guy in front of her friends even if she wanted to so as not to come off as a slut.
LMR: Last Minute Resistance - Resistance sometimes women will put up just before a sexual encounter to alleviate responsibility from themselves, so that it 'just happened' (note, this is different than saying NO. LMR is meant by women to be overcome). This term is related to ASD.
There's a whole lot more. These guys write theory essays on the stuff and submit 'field reports' to discuss their experiences. It's been interesting to watch as an observer, although I've been banned from their forum multiple times for jumping in to argue when someone says something truly despicable. It seems like there's some potential here to help young men, but it's so bound up with toxic and misogynistic rhetoric that I would never actually introduce any of my friends to it.
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Yes this is where the 'red pill' comes in.
I don't follow it closely enough to know what the red pill is, but it sounds like they're on their way to figuring things out.
It's like cops and robbers. The women will make adjustments to incels figuring things out, and the game will go on.
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Nobody is entitled to casual sex, no matter how great it is.
Is it great? So many disgusting things hidden by clothing, and so many unfortunate outcomes (STDs, pregnancies, etc).
It's fine it things go smoothly, but that rarely happens.
Do you think they should be forced to have it, so that men don't feel disappointed?
Aren't trannies claiming this exact thing? I read they are saying women should sleep with them else it's discrimination.
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I'm not saying I have a solution. You can't really turn back the clock on technology. I'm just explaining where this incel/redpill stuff is coming from. Nobody is 'entitled' to sex, and yet everybody desires sexual interest from the gender they're attracted to. Being permanently deprived of that takes a toll on mental health.
Obviously it's a complex issue, but the strange thing is, all the women that don't get what they want - Prince Charming, or whatever - don't start creating an ideology around it and start websites telling everyone they will 'take the neon green coloured pill' because now they are really, really so angry because they didn't get what they wanted... Sorry but the whole incel stuff is just so childish, like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
I don't think it's a technology related thing either; throughout history, a small percentage of men had the option to have as many women as they wanted, it's always been like this. Before, maybe it wasn't as based on looks and more on money and power, social position, but it was still the same thing. Before tinder, and even now, people hook up in clubs and other 'real life' situations, and it's the same story, a small percentage of guys get most of the girls.
I can understand that men are disappointed about this but women go through the same thing when they grow up and realise the perfect relationship / wedding / family / house or whatever they dreamt about only happens to a very few lucky people. Everyone else has to make compromises and so on, that's just life.
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Is it great? So many disgusting things hidden by clothing, and so many unfortunate outcomes (STDs, pregnancies, etc). It's fine it things go smoothly, but that rarely happens.
Sorry if it's too much information but I had overwhelmingly good experiences, actually :). Maybe I was lucky. Re: trans thing, I honestly have no idea but nothing surprises me these days lol.
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Obviously it's a complex issue, but the strange thing is, all the women that don't get what they want - Prince Charming, or whatever - don't start creating an ideology around it and start websites telling everyone they will 'take the neon green coloured pill' because now they are really, really so angry because they didn't get what they wanted... Sorry but the whole incel stuff is just so childish, like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
I don't think it's a technology related thing either; throughout history, a small percentage of men had the option to have as many women as they wanted, it's always been like this. Before, maybe it wasn't as based on looks and more on money and power, social position, but it was still the same thing. Before tinder, and even now, people hook up in clubs and other 'real life' situations, and it's the same story, a small percentage of guys get most of the girls.
I can understand that men are disappointed about this but women go through the same thing when they grow up and realise the perfect relationship / wedding / family / house or whatever they dreamt about only happens to a very few lucky people. Everyone else has to make compromises and so on, that's just life.
Pretty much.
We watch a lot of true crime type shows, and the dead victim's family many times is like, "We all thought it was a fairytale romance. She found her prince charming!"
For one, every time I hear that I can't believe adult women believe in fairytale romance, and secondly how bad does your judgment have to be to think you're in a fairytale and wind up dead? Sounds more like the Brothers Grimm folklore than a fairytale.
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Obviously it's a complex issue, but the strange thing is, all the women that don't get what they want - Prince Charming, or whatever - don't start creating an ideology around it and start websites telling everyone they will 'take the neon green coloured pill' because now they are really, really so angry because they didn't get what they wanted... Sorry but the whole incel stuff is just so childish, like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
I don't think it's a technology related thing either; throughout history, a small percentage of men had the option to have as many women as they wanted, it's always been like this. Before, maybe it wasn't as based on looks and more on money and power, social position, but it was still the same thing. Before tinder, and even now, people hook up in clubs and other 'real life' situations, and it's the same story, a small percentage of guys get most of the girls.
I can understand that men are disappointed about this but women go through the same thing when they grow up and realise the perfect relationship / wedding / family / house or whatever they dreamt about only happens to a very few lucky people. Everyone else has to make compromises and so on, that's just life.
Well I think there's a real difference between not getting 'Prince Charming' and getting next to zero sexual attention from the opposite gender. I'd say the latter is far more debilitating. That's like telling a homeless guy "well I didn't get my million dollar mansion, I guess we all have struggles". The comparison is a bit silly.
Yes, it has always been this way to some degree. My point is though that technology is responsible for deepening the crisis for young men which has lead to the generation of these communities. This is borne out in the data over the last decade on involuntarily celibate men. It's not clear whether technology is entirely responsible. That's just my theory based on observation and experience, and the experiences of other guys I've talked to.
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On both sides people are using one another and using mind games/tricks to get in the pants.
I understand incels desires. Those are normal. Everyone wants to walk into a room and have their pick of the litter. Totally normal. Probably the most human and normal emotion incels experience, actually. The abnormality is in how they cope with not getting that. Moping is about the worst, most unattractive response. Good women are repulsed by mopers and guys who are under their thumb.
I totally agree with what you wrote here re: moping etc. Re: people using tricks etc. to get casual sex, it does not have to be like that. It's possible to do it in a very open and honest way if you find the right group of people. It sounds like you had bad luck / bad experiences in this respect.
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This is borne out in the data over the last decade on involuntarily celibate men.
Or is someone just finally keeping data on these things?
I'm sure in ancient Greece there were involuntary celibate men.
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Is it great? So many disgusting things hidden by clothing, and so many unfortunate outcomes (STDs, pregnancies, etc).
It's fine it things go smoothly, but that rarely happens.
Personally I've never been disgusted by casual sex. It's something I genuinely enjoy and seek out when I'm not dating someone. In my experience, women enjoy it just as much. It's all about being the right guy.
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Well I think there's a real difference between not getting 'Prince Charming' and getting next to zero sexual attention from the opposite gender. I'd say the latter is far more debilitating. That's like telling a homeless guy "well I didn't get my million dollar mansion, I guess we all have struggles". The comparison is a bit silly.
Guess what, having a loving life partner is more important and more fulfilling than casual sex (I say this as someone who has more positive views on casual sex than the overwhelming majority of women). I guess it's easy to dismiss the Prince Charming stuff because that's just a silly thing that women typically want, while obviously what men want cannot be dismissed quite so easily since that's the important stuff, right?
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Or is someone just finally keeping data on these things?
I'm sure in ancient Greece there were involuntary celibate men.
Here's a wiki with some sources on the data. The spike since about 08 is what I'm referring to.
https://incels.wiki/w/Demographics_of_inceldom
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Personally I've never been disgusted by casual sex. It's something I genuinely enjoy and seek out when I'm not dating someone. In my experience, women enjoy it just as much. It's all about being the right guy.
I'm disgusted by STDs, pregnancy, and bad smells. Not casual sex. In theory casual sex is ideal. In reality, people are flawed and have issues and/or things happen, and those things repulse me.
I also always hated the feeling of leaving someone's house after that. It felt like fleeing a crime scene where I just wanted to get the hell out of there as fast as possible and shower off the DNA evidence.
These could all be problems with me. If that's the case this is some mini therapy.
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I'm sure in ancient Greece there were involuntary celibate men.
Exactly! And probably involuntarily celibate and / or emotionally and sexually unfulfilled women too, seeing how it was quite common in ancient Greece for men to spend almost all their time outside the house, in the company of other men and handsome young boys, and women were kept pretty much as slaves for cooking and child bearing. Also in a lot of ancient societies - and even in some contemporary ones - higher status men have had several wives, so quite a few men of lower status would have ended up without even one.
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Guess what, having a loving life partner is more important and more fulfilling than casual sex (I say this as someone who has more positive views on casual sex than the overwhelming majority of women). I guess it's easy to dismiss the Prince Charming stuff because that's just a silly thing that women typically want, while obviously what men want cannot be dismissed quite so easily since that's the important stuff, right?
No, you are misunderstanding. Maybe a better way would be to imagine a pyramid like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. At the very top, we can put 'true love', Prince Charming, and all that. Down at the base we have things like basic attention and recognition. My point is that while women don't always get Prince Charming, they at least get the base. An increasing number of men go with all of these needs (or wants) unmet.
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Here's a wiki with some sources on the data. The spike since about 08 is what I'm referring to.
https://incels.wiki/w/Demographics_of_inceldom
What's interesting about that graph is there's only a 10% difference between women and men who are incels.
The graph only goes back to the 80s. And what was the methodology back then vs now? Is it all self-reporting?
It is interesting there's a spike. That coincides with the economic collapse...you could argue the guys who came out of that with jobs got women. Tinder wasn't founded until 2012, so how does it explain '08 through '12? Might be more going on.
I think women should be the selectors. I'm all for men's rights and think feminism has many flaws. But biologically speaking, they have a limited number of eggs. We pretty much have unlimited sperm. They should be more in demand, and they should be selecting. Our jizz is a dime a dozen. Have you seen the cost of eggs??
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For one, every time I hear that I can't believe adult women believe in fairytale romance, and secondly how bad does your judgment have to be to think you're in a fairytale and wind up dead?
Good points. My personal experience has been that if the guy is super nice and 'charming' in the very beginning, brings flowers, seems very romantic, spends loads of money, makes lots of compliments etc., it's the biggest red flag there is and one should run a mile from them. It's invariably these types of guys that turn out to be possessive, controlling stalkers sooner rather than later. Normal guys just behave normal, they don't put on an act in the beginning and spend time trying to get to know the other person before investing in them.
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Good points. My personal experience has been that if the guy is super nice and 'charming' in the very beginning, brings flowers, seems very romantic, spends loads of money, makes lots of compliments etc., it's the biggest red flag there is and one should run a mile from them. It's invariably these types of guys that turn out to be possessive, controlling stalkers sooner rather than later. Normal guys just behave normal, they don't put on an act in the beginning and spend time trying to get to know the other person before investing in them.
Oh yeah, huge red flag. And for guys anything related to daddy issues is the equivalent red flag.
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What's interesting about that graph is there's only a 10% difference between women and men who are incels.
The graph only goes back to the 80s. And what was the methodology back then vs now? Is it all self-reporting?
It is interesting there's a spike. That coincides with the economic collapse...you could argue the guys who came out of that with jobs got women. Tinder wasn't founded until 2012, so how does it explain '08 through '12? Might be more going on.
I think women should be the selectors. I'm all for men's rights and think feminism has many flaws. But biologically speaking, they have a limited number of eggs. We pretty much have unlimited sperm. They should be more in demand, and they should be selecting. Our jizz is a dime a dozen. Have you seen the cost of eggs??
I don't know the methodology. Yes I also noticed that the spike begins around the time of the global financial crisis, but it also does not attenuate in the subsequent years. I'm sure the crisis had an impact.
Biologically speaking, women are in fact the selectors. That's why the disparity exists.
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No, you are misunderstanding. Maybe a better way would be to imagine a pyramid like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. At the very top, we can put 'true love', Prince Charming, and all that. Down at the base we have things like basic attention and recognition. My point is that while women don't always get Prince Charming, they at least get the base. An increasing number of men go with all of these needs (or wants) unmet.
Oh ok, I understand your point much better now and yes, you're right in that sense. I'd add though that not all women get attention and / or positive attention from men. I have been fortunate in this respect and it has not happened to me (yet), but I hear from others that for example overweight women, or women above a certain age become completely invisible to men or even get ridiculed.
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Biologically speaking, women are in fact the selectors. That's why the disparity exists.
But that's how it should be, no?
They have the rarer gamete.
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Love to read all you are writing (and many others here)
The thing about having a lot of sexual experience is it becomes disgusting after a while. On both sides people are using one another and using mind games/tricks to get in the pants. Then all the diseases and disgusting smells (even high quality women!) and crazy, damaged people, trips to the clinic, scares with birthing children, etc. You can only do this so long before it's repulsive and also takes a toll, mentally. After a while you begin to look forward to settling down. There's that Weezer song "Tired of Sex" that sums this up nicely. That guy is a total dork and could get anyone he wanted due to fame, and he still got bored with it.
I understand incels desires. Those are normal. Everyone wants to walk into a room and have their pick of the litter. Totally normal. Probably the most human and normal emotion incels experience, actually. The abnormality is in how they cope with not getting that. Moping is about the worst, most unattractive response. Good women are repulsed by mopers and guys who are under their thumb. The only women into that are damaged in some way. Good women want/respect a guy who calls them out when warranted and visa versa. It's really as simple as having even power dynamics, which comes from self-respect, and you can have that even if you're gross. This is where incels approach totally frustrates me to watch. They could easily fix their plight.
Learn three power chords and form a punk band.
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But that's how it should be, no?
They have the rarer gamete.
The prescriptive "should" is pretty dubious here. That's the naturalistic fallacy. Female selectivity was important to the evolution of the species, but we've overcome those evolutionary pressures with modern technology (birth control, abortion, in-vitro fertilization).
We can explain WHY women are the selectors, but that doesn't tell us anything about what SHOULD be. Not that it can be changed anyway.
I'd add though that not all women get attention and / or positive attention from men. I have been fortunate in this respect and it has not happened to me (yet), but I hear from others that for example overweight women, or women above a certain age become completely invisible to men or even get ridiculed.
Yes, this is very true. The red pill types refer to this as The Wall. It's an inflection point at which women's attractiveness typically begins to decrease. The most commonly proposed number is about 30, but this of course depends on the woman. Red pillers often refer to women as "pre-wall" or "post-wall". A post-wall or overweight woman is likely to have a more similar experience to an average young man.
Men, on the other hand, have the potential to become more attractive with age. Maturity, wealth, and power are all attractive to women. If you take care of your body, it's possible to keep building muscle through your 30s as well. Especially with the power of testosterone replacement therapy.
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I'm disgusted by STDs, pregnancy, and bad smells. Not casual sex. In theory casual sex is ideal. In reality, people are flawed and have issues and/or things happen, and those things repulse me.
I also always hated the feeling of leaving someone's house after that. It felt like fleeing a crime scene where I just wanted to get the hell out of there as fast as possible and shower off the DNA evidence.
Don't take it personally but it sounds like casual sex is not for you (psychologically speaking). It's not for everybody, but because you're a guy, there's this idea that you should enjoy it while if a woman was saying the same things you're saying, that would be considered normal. I think you have to have a certain personality to enjoy casual sex and some people have that - men or women. Others don't, nothing wrong with that. It can be an uplifting and positive experience, but obviously that hadn't been the case for you.
Re: pregnancy, you can (should) use condoms; STD - yes, that's an issue but typically not a huge one as long as you use condoms; bad smells - come on, where did you find these people that smelt so bad lol. It's a good idea to take a shower before sex, that should sort it out in most cases.
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women above a certain age become completely invisible to men or even get ridiculed.
i.e. when their gametes are gone/have no value. Youth is just a synonym for fertility. So men equally reject women. This is why men have a lot of success later in life, whereas women's success is usually more up front. At least that's what I've observed.
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Don't take it personally but it sounds like casual sex is not for you (psychologically speaking). It's not for everybody, but because you're a guy, there's this idea that you should enjoy it while if a woman was saying the same things you're saying, that would be considered normal. I think you have to have a certain personality to enjoy casual sex and some people have that - men or women. Others don't, nothing wrong with that. It can be an uplifting and positive experience, but obviously that hadn't been the case for you.
Re: pregnancy, you can (should) use condoms; STD - yes, that's an issue but typically not a huge one as long as you use condoms; bad smells - come on, where did you find these people that smelt so bad lol. It's a good idea to take a shower before sex, that should sort it out in most cases.
I think that's correct. It's not for me.
I do like it in the sense that it's glorified masturbation, and that's awesome, but it's not worth all the things that could go wrong. For me it was more about ego boost, if I'm being honest. The ego boost of adding someone to the belt brah brah and bragging to friends. It felt good in that sense. But I'd be sneaking out of girl's rooms because I felt like I just committed a crime against humanity. I hate the feeling right after. Like up until that point you think you're making the greatest decision known to man, and the second it is over, boom...complete inverse emotion, and you just want to flee the scene. At least that's how I was. Brutal for me and the women.
Regarding smells and STDS -- there is a lot of that stuff out there. I bet it's worse since the apps. One time...actually...never mind unless people want to hear it. It goes beyond smells....
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Maturity, wealth, and power are all attractive to women.
That's a common male fantasy about 'mature' men being attractive to women lol. In reality, it's just the money and social position. Of course young men are typically more physically attractive than older men, it's exactly the same as with women. Yeah you can have muscles but it's not the same as a naturally firm young body with a full head of hair etc. That's life.
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Don't take it personally but it sounds like casual sex is not for you (psychologically speaking). It's not for everybody, but because you're a guy, there's this idea that you should enjoy it while if a woman was saying the same things you're saying, that would be considered normal. I think you have to have a certain personality to enjoy casual sex and some people have that - men or women. Others don't, nothing wrong with that. It can be an uplifting and positive experience, but obviously that hadn't been the case for you.
Re: pregnancy, you can (should) use condoms; STD - yes, that's an issue but typically not a huge one as long as you use condoms; bad smells - come on, where did you find these people that smelt so bad lol. It's a good idea to take a shower before sex, that should sort it out in most cases.
Agree
i.e. when their gametes are gone/have no value. Youth is just a synonym for fertility. So men equally reject women. This is why men have a lot of success later in life, whereas women's success is usually more up front. At least that's what I've observed.
Correct. I read one study which concluded that women's sexual peak (in terms of attractiveness to men) is actually around 18. That was surprisingly young to me, but it makes sense.
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That's a common male fantasy about 'mature' men being attractive to women lol. In reality, it's just the money and social position. Of course young men are typically more physically attractive than older men, it's exactly the same as with women. Yeah you can have muscles but it's not the same as a naturally firm young body with a full head of hair etc. That's life.
By 'mature' I don't mean physically looking older, I mean a guy who has his s**t together and knows what he's doing in life. Women definitely value this in men.
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Have you guys noticed incels obsession with Jordan Peterson?
What is up with that?
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I read one study which concluded that women's sexual peak (in terms of attractiveness to men) is actually around 18.
I think if women were allowed to be honest, and it was purely about sexual attraction (not money, social status, what do your friends think etc.) it would not be much higher for women either, i.e. most women would admit that men in their early to mid twenties are the most attractive. Things start to go downhill from there, physically. Socially, emotionally etc. it's obviously a different story.
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By 'mature' I don't mean physically looking older, I mean a guy who has his s**t together and knows what he's doing in life. Women definitely value this in men.
Socially of course women (and men) value that - but sexually, no. Sex is not better with a guy that knows what he's doing in life lol.
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Have you guys noticed incels obsession with Jordan Peterson?
What is up with that?
Yes, it's because he advocated 'enforced monogamy': https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
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enforced monogamy
Lol.
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Socially of course women (and men) value that - but sexually, no. Sex is not better with a guy that knows what he's doing in life lol.
Fair enough
Have you guys noticed incels obsession with Jordan Peterson?
What is up with that?
He's kind of a 'father figure' for a lot of lost young men. His book "12 Rules for Life" is sort of a self-help book for young men without direction in their lives.
Plus he bashes on feminism, which is super popular on youtube. He talks about how the pay gap is actually justified because women naturally don't succeed as well as men in what he calls 'dominance hierarchies', says women shouldn't be allowed to wear makeup in the workplace because it's a sexual signal, etc.
His politics are basically the polar opposite of mine and his followers can be pretty rabid. He has some good self-help advice but 90% of what he says is nonsense. I watched him give a talk on Marxism and Postmodernism, and it was absolutely littered with factual errors.
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He's kind of a 'father figure' for a lot of lost young men. His book "12 Rules for Life" is sort of a self-help book for young men without direction in their lives.
Plus he bashes on feminism, which is super popular on youtube. He talks about how the pay gap is actually justified because women naturally don't succeed as well as men in what he calls 'dominance hierarchies', says women shouldn't be allowed to wear makeup in the workplace because it's a sexual signal, etc.
His politics are basically the polar opposite of mine and his followers can be pretty rabid. He has some good self-help advice but 90% of what he says is nonsense. I watched him give a talk on Marxism and Postmodernism, and it was absolutely littered with factual errors.
I listened to a few lectures of his and watched him on Joe Rogan. I felt like I was being manipulated, so I turned it off.
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Socially of course women (and men) value that - but sexually, no. Sex is not better with a guy that knows what he's doing in life lol.
Although I will say that women are sexually attracted to powerful men (let's say a CEO) whereas a man could care less whether a woman is a CEO.
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How do the implants feel? Are you aware of them at all times? I've always been curious about what the experience is like.
feel like bone, don’t even realise they’re there. Only stress is, I’m religious so I believe in life after death - hopefully they’re not on me then. Other than that it’s amazing
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He's kind of a 'father figure' for a lot of lost young men. His book "12 Rules for Life" is sort of a self-help book for young men without direction in their lives.
I did agree with one of his rules: 'clean your room'. Everything else he said was basically rubbish but that was a good one! I promptly followed it.
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Lol.
Funnily enough, the subtitle of the article says: "The academic believes violent men can be cured by the love of a good woman through enforced monogamy. And he can’t understand why people are laughing at him?"
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Although I will say that women are sexually attracted to powerful men (let's say a CEO) whereas a man could care less whether a woman is a CEO.
Yes, I've seen that happening! Also some women get turned on by soldiers, policemen or whatever. I never got that, but it's definitely a thing. Personally I'm the same as you, I could not care less about the person's position or uniform or whatever. Then again, quite a few men get turned on by bossy, domineering women that order them around, and there can be an overlap between that and women in certain positions. I guess different people are into different things, it's about way more than looks and age.
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feel like bone, don’t even realise they’re there. Only stress is, I’m religious so I believe in life after death - hopefully they’re not on me then. Other than that it’s amazing
That's great to hear, Dr. D did well.
I'm sure you'll clean up just fine in the afterlife.
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Yes, I've seen that happening! Also some women get turned on by soldiers, policemen or whatever. I never got that, but it's definitely a thing. Personally I'm the same as you, I could not care less about the person's position or uniform or whatever. Then again, quite a few men get turned on by bossy, domineering women that order them around, and there can be an overlap between that and women in certain positions. I guess different people are into different things, it's about way more than looks and age.
I'd classify men being into highly dominant women more as a kink, whereas women being attracted to powerful men or men in uniform is standard fare. I played soccer and lacrosse in high school and it was a different world when in uniform, and I already did fine with girls to begin with.
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I played soccer and lacrosse in high school and it was a different world when in uniform, and I already did fine with girls to begin with.
Is that what you'd call a "humble brag", or is it just a brag?
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Is that what you'd call a "humble brag", or is it just a brag?
Depends on how much you think high school exploits count for, I guess
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Just busting your balls.
It's fine to brag a little. Better than moping.
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No, you are misunderstanding. Maybe a better way would be to imagine a pyramid like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. At the very top, we can put 'true love', Prince Charming, and all that. Down at the base we have things like basic attention and recognition. My point is that while women don't always get Prince Charming, they at least get the base. An increasing number of men go with all of these needs (or wants) unmet.
I remember looking at a friend’s tinder account and it was so vacant and devoid of activity/ matches/ messages it felt like stepping inside a ghost town. Like all his matches were obvious fake accounts. And I had to tell him this.
It was honestly heart breaking, especially because he was playing it off like it was no big deal. So I know what you mean but bottom of the pyramid, basic interest, basic recognition. Some guys get none of it, and there are a lot of female monsters on tinder. He wasn’t good enough for any of them. He’s not ugly at all, no craniofacial deviations, just short I guess, not a big guy.
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Thanks for letting us know.
Enjoy now - and this life .. don't think what'll happen in 60 years.
Probobaly is amazing to finally see your self in the mirror as you feel like you look
I did agree with one of his rules: 'clean your room'. Everything else he said was basically rubbish but that was a good one! I promptly followed it.
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I'm honestly shocked at the amount of homoeroticism in this thread
EDIT: please stop giving me negative karma. All I meant to say with my original comment was that I'm not used to seeing men complimenting other men to as much of a degree as I saw here. It turns out that the guy who was doing this the most admitted to being gay after I wrote this, which I wasn't aware of at first :-\
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I'm honestly shocked at the amount of homoeroticism in this thread
Why, because men discussing other men's looks or wanting to look good is a 'gay thing', lol? 'Real men' don't care about looks? :) BTW even if there was lots of 'homoeroticism' lurking here (which I cannot see), why would that be shocking, what's wrong with it?
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Why, because men discussing other men's looks or wanting to look good is a 'gay thing', lol? 'Real men' don't care about looks? :) BTW even if there was lots of 'homoeroticism' lurking here (which I cannot see), why would that be shocking, what's wrong with it?
I wouldn't be here if I prescribed to the belief that "real men" don't care about looks, lol. I'm not one of those "redneck alpha male who will beat up your dad" type guys, I care about looks and recognize how important they are (both from personal experience in the real world and from Tinder). It turns out that one of the guys making comments is actually gay (which I obviously didn't know before), and the comments he made (amazing eyes, great facial features, etc.) would have definitely been out of the ordinary coming from a straight man. That being said I think the OP's implant results are great and will only look better with time as he loses the temporary bloat.
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the comments he made (amazing eyes, great facial features, etc.) would have definitely been out of the ordinary coming from a straight man.
Uhm no, I don't think so. To me, they seem totally normal comments coming from any men, gay or straight or anything in between and beyond. But I guess we move in different circles :) - I accept you did not mean to offend anyone (not even the guy that 'admitted to' being gay, lol).
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Uhm no, I don't think so. To me, they seem totally normal comments coming from any men, gay or straight or anything in between and beyond. But I guess we move in different circles :) - I accept you did not mean to offend anyone (not even the guy that 'admitted to' being gay, lol).
Yeah, well, in the US it would definitely be seen as weird to (repeatedly) comment on how attractive another man's features are. Acknowledging that he is good looking once or twice or telling a dude that he could be a model wouldn't be out of the ordinary, but imagine a guy telling you (as a guy), several times, "wow, you have such nice eyes. Truly beautiful. Your jaw is extremely attractive." I would personally suspect that he's gay... which it turns out he was in this case, and there's nothing wrong with that, I just didn't expect to see a gay dude on a jaw surgery forum (especially since I would guess a lot of users here are incel-type)
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Yeah, well, in the US it would definitely be seen as weird to (repeatedly) comment on how attractive another man's features are. Acknowledging that he is good looking once or twice or telling a dude that he could be a model wouldn't be out of the ordinary, but imagine a guy telling you (as a guy), several times, "wow, you have such nice eyes. Truly beautiful. Your jaw is extremely attractive." I would personally suspect that he's gay... which it turns out he was in this case, and there's nothing wrong with that, I just didn't expect to see a gay dude on a jaw surgery forum (especially since I would guess a lot of users here are incel-type)
No offence but that's misguided on so many levels. The vast majority of people getting jaw surgery are not incels. They are men or women that look significantly different from the norm, either because of an accident or illness or genetic reasons. A large percentage of the human population are bisexual or gay, so naturally many people on a jaw surgery forum are likely to be gay or bisexual too. As for the rest of your comments, I'm tired to argue with that.
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That being said I think the OP's implant results are great and will only look better with time
Sounds pretty gay
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Sounds pretty gay
;D
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I believe when praising another man's looks, one must qualify the praise with "no homo". For example:
"Beatuful eyes, OP! No homo."
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I believe when praising another man's looks, one must qualify the praise with "no homo". For example:
"Beatuful eyes, OP! No homo."
What if you're a 'nomo' no mo sex with anyone or desire?
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Complimenting someone on their results and features is an observation, not a sign of attraction. You guys should compliment each other more often :-*
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Complimenting someone on their results and features is an observation, not a sign of attraction. You guys should compliment each other more often :-*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KinXzRCjY4A
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Didn’t intend to cause this much controversy - no homo.
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3 months post
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side
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Now the only issue left is my eyes, they seem very sunken and so not attractive. Also I wanted hollow cheeks, but instead of buccal fat removal can fat freezing machines work because I don't want to go under the knife again??
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Buccal fat removal is the simplest cosmetic procedure, yet can have some of the worst consequences. Its only applicable when you have real hamster cheeks despite being very thin. You don't, so leave it well alone. You won't look better, just older. Plastic surgery is such a lottery that I'm not sure it's possible to have 2 good results in a row. You've just had a great one and buccal fat removal is one of those things which is irreversible.
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Buccal fat removal is the simplest cosmetic procedure, yet can have some of the worst consequences. Its only applicable when you have real hamster cheeks despite being very thin. You don't, so leave it well alone. You won't look better, just older. Plastic surgery is such a lottery that I'm not sure it's possible to have 2 good results in a row. You've just had a great one and buccal fat removal is one of those things which is irreversible.
Agreed with Plosko, buccal fat removal is a terrible idea. I had it and I know so many doctors who won't perform it and patients who regret it. Instead of that sunken cheek model look you're looking for you'll have dents in your face which will look like you've been injured.
Anyway, I think you're playing with fire. Your jaw implants look good. I would leave it at that and maybe just get a bit of filler for cheekbones/eye area.
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You're going to look fake if you're going to do more. I somehow got this feeling OP is going to make mistakes and will never be completely satisfied.
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3 months post
still looks a bit swollen where your jawline is but otherwise amazing
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can you post the implant design? cost?
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Since everyone and their dog are in this thread - how long post bimax should one wait until getting a wrap around implant?
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Since everyone and their dog is in this thread - how long post bimax should one wait until getting a wrap around implant?
Probably 1 year minimum to confirm stability and be sure swelling is gone entirely.
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Agreed with Plosko, buccal fat removal is a terrible idea. I had it and I know so many doctors who won't perform it and patients who regret it. Instead of that sunken cheek model look you're looking for you'll have dents in your face which will look like you've been injured.
Anyway, I think you're playing with fire. Your jaw implants look good. I would leave it at that and maybe just get a bit of filler for cheekbones/eye area.
Can you PM me your buccal fat removal results? I am actually considering getting this myself after I saw someone on another forum with excellent results, but I don't know yet if I need it.
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Looks like s**t. No harmony whatsoever. The 3 facial thirds are not in proportion to each other. Your forehead's way too big for example, your lower third isn't wide and angular enough. I have no idea how your implant isn't angular as implants are supposed to keep angularity contrary to fillers. You must have a high bodyfat percentage otherwise I don't know.
Your midface is too long. Even tho you're squinting in the picture, you still have a lot of upper eyelid exposure. Your lateral canthus isn't wide enough, as a result your eyes are small and round. Sclera show too. Can't see your cheekbones because your jaws were recessed from the get-go. You've slapped implants on recessed jaws. As a result your harmony is completely off.
This is why you fix recession first, then augment the bone structure with fillers or implants.
You had much better harmony before.
This is my honest opinion
Show me a side profile pic.
waaw man! it seems that you have a lot of anger and hate inside you! why you are talking to him as if he is your biggest enemy who killed your whole family!!?? you can't just put your psychological issues on strangers.. you are free to share your opinion, but is this your first time taking to human!!
My opinion about the implant.. you look great and handsome..
I need implants to fix my face but I was hesitant, but seeing your results encouraged me and gave me some reassurance .. Thank you for sharing your pictures
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I think the results look very natural and harmonious. Very good result indeed. @sal123 would you mind posting the design pictures? It would really help me understand the features of a good jaw implant design. I am planning to have the same procedure this summer.
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I think the results look very natural and harmonious. Very good result indeed. @sal123 would you mind posting the design pictures? It would really help me understand the features of a good jaw implant design. I am planning to have the same procedure this summer.
I don't think there are absolute features of a good implant design. It all depends on someone's face. An implant on someone with a big skull might look good on him but might look terrible on someone with a small face. Also, designs are 2d. You deal with a 3d face. The key factor is 'seeing' how a 2d design will translate in 3d. It's art, you need to 'see' t, feel it, just like Bob Ross translated the image in his mind into a realistic painting. Most people aren't able to draw a landscape. The artist could explain it technically, but still most people won't be able to get on the same level.
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I don't think there are absolute features of a good implant design. It all depends on someone's face. An implant on someone with a big skull might look good on him but might look terrible on someone with a small face. Also, designs are 2d. You deal with a 3d face. The key factor is 'seeing' how a 2d design will translate in 3d. It's art, you need to 'see' t, feel it, just like Bob Ross translated the image in his mind into a realistic painting. Most people aren't able to draw a landscape. The artist could explain it technically, but still most people won't be able to get on the same level.
I agree, you must never forget that each implant design is a work of art to enhance a specific individual's face. What I like about this implant is that it addressed the problems with this guy's lower third without overdoing it, assuming that the swelling will come down further. The obvious need for flatter manibular plane angles probably made the implant design process quite straight forward and not too difficult it seems. At the same time, this design on my face would have been a disaster.
But I also believe that there must be some commonalities in all implant design that tries to achieve the same goal. Of particular interest to me is the width of the jaw implant in relation to the bizygomatic width. If the goal is a more masculine appearance without overdoing it, is there a sweet spot?
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I agree, you must never forget that each implant design is a work of art to enhance a specific individual's face. What I like about this implant is that it addressed the problems with this guy's lower third without overdoing it, assuming that the swelling will come down further. The obvious need for flatter manibular plane angles probably made the implant design process quite straight forward and not too difficult it seems. At the same time, this design on my face would have been a disaster.
But I also believe that there must be some commonalities in all implant design that tries to achieve the same goal. Of particular interest to me is the width of the jaw implant in relation to the bizygomatic width. If the goal is a more masculine appearance without overdoing it, is there a sweet spot?
There is a rule that says: jawangles shoud't be broader than zygos, but me personally, I think this is not a 'hard' rule. If you look at Ron Moss and Brad Pitt, their jaw is broader than zygos. I think it's more important to preserve the ogeeline and some hollowing of cheeks/shadows to prevent a bloated face. I've seen filler results where the jaw was broader than zygos and it wasn't a problem, it even added to the masculinity. But when you put for example 10-12 mm implants and lose the forward projection of the face, that's when things might become problematic aesthetically. Why I've seen this loss of forward projection with some implant results, resulting in a rather bloated face, isn't quite clear to me. I guess it might have to do with phenotype and/or adding volume to parts of the face that should not become thicker/fuller but are technically needed to fix the implant, mainly the area above the lower boarder of the jaw. Or it has to do with how the soft tissue around the implant reacts or is put around it during surgery. I don't know precisely. It would be good if a surgeon could answer this question.
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There is a rule that says: jawangles shoud't be broader than zygos, but me personally, I think this is not a 'hard' rule. If you look at Ron Moss and Brad Pitt, their jaw is broader than zygos. I think it's more important to preserve the ogeeline and some hollowing of cheeks/shadows to prevent a bloated face. I've seen filler results where the jaw was broader than zygos and it wasn't a problem, it even added to the masculinity. But when you put for example 10-12 mm implants and lose the forward projection of the face, that's when things might become problematic aesthetically. Why I've seen this loss of forward projection with some implant results, resulting in a rather bloated face, isn't quite clear to me. I guess it might have to do with phenotype and/or adding volume to parts of the face that should not become thicker/fuller but are technically needed to fix the implant, mainly the area above the lower boarder of the jaw. Or it has to do with how the soft tissue around the implant reacts or is put around it during surgery. I don't know precisely. It would be good if a surgeon could answer this question.
I have seen some before and afters where the intergonial width was clearly smaller than the bizygomatic width and I think the results were lacking. At the same time I consider the Ron Moss look less than ideal. Ideally, I would like the intergonial width to be only very slightly less than the bizygomatic width. But this is just my personal perference. Hence I would never go beyond the bizygomatic width. What I am really asking is how close to the bizygomatic width can you go without getting the Ron Moss look. I mean you also have to factor in the masseter muscles, or am I wrong? I think Brad Pitts bulging lower third has as much to do with his masseter muscles as with his intergonial width.
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The links to your photos are missing bro.