jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Aesthetics => Topic started by: SurgerySoon on March 10, 2019, 10:14:26 PM
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In just a few weeks, I will be going to Dr. Y to have surgery to place custom-designed midface (cheek/orbital rim) and wraparound jaw implants. I'm frauding in most of these by clenching my masseter muscles to make my jaw angles look wider and more flared (and pouting my lips to make my cheeks look more defined), but here is a series of photos taken between 2015 - last few weeks to show you my starting point; as you can see, my buggy eyes and lack of lower eyelid support are probably my most noticeable "bad" features:
https://imgur.com/a/qo9feyz
The top 3 pics were taken in 2015, and the rest were taken in either 2018 or 2019. Here is a photo taken in early December 2018, but I'm also frauding in this pic by clenching my jaw and also slightly pouting my lips:
https://imgur.com/a/RV3oSTH
To give you an idea of what my jaw looks like when I'm not clenching my masseter muscles, see below to compare two photos taken in which I'm clenching my jaw in one photo but not clenching in the other one. I'm not clenching in the top photo, and I am clenching in the bottom one. These photos were also taken after an 8-10 mile run in a very humid climate, so I'd also just lost lots of water weight (slightly pouting my lips as well):
https://imgur.com/a/k85qSSJ
Dr. Y will also be performing a subperiosteal midface lift -- a procedure he is one of the originators of (or perhaps *the* originator of?) -- to elevate my lower eyelids and eradicate my nasolabial folds, which, along with my lack of lower eyelid support, are the most telling giveaway of my age (31).
So basically, I told Dr. Y that I want to get a more chiseled, masculine, "male model"-esque look. I sent him several pictures of Henry Cavill in his leanest states (e.g., filming scenes for "Man of Steel") and told him I'd like to get as realistically close as possible to getting more of that "look" without appearing unnatural-looking or like someone who is trying to "force" a look that just doesn't quite work. Overall, I want to become more attractive. Anyways, here are photos of the implant designs:
https://imgur.com/a/OPNjH4Z
https://imgur.com/a/BnTEcII
So, what do you guys think? Do you think Dr. Y designed these implants with a tasteful aesthetic sense? I really like the sharpness and angularity of the cheeks, and I think the jaw looks cool, too; I'm just afraid that the angles might be so sharp and wide that they make my lower jaw look TOO wide.
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Uhh..you have an incredible jaw as is (yes, even not clenched). Please do not f**k up your face. Almost everyone here would kill for your jaw angles and definition. I think your issues are psychological, not aesthetic. I see no good coming of this.
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You have a good jaw and chin. I wouldn't do anything to your jaw and chin. I think the design is only going to make your face more boxy.
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You have a good jaw and chin. I wouldn't do anything to your jaw and chin. I think the design is only going to make your face more boxy.
Uhh..you have an incredible jaw as is (yes, even not clenched). Please do not f**k up your face. Almost everyone here would kill for your jaw angles and definition. I think your issues are psychological, not aesthetic. I see no good coming of this.
Thanks for the compliments, but you guys don't think I'd benefit from dropping the jaw angles down a bit further so that my gonial angles aren't so high?
Another option is to leave the jaw angles alone and just place the custom chin implant portion of the wraparound implant (I.e., chin implant only, no jaw implant), since my chin is a little short from the side and a bit narrow from the front.
Do you both really think that augmenting the jaw/chin in any way whatsoever will only make me look worse?
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I agree with the others, leave it alone. Yeh you could drop the jaw angles s bit but it might look unnatural. Your chin is a tiny bit pointy But I wouldn’t say it needs surgery at all.
Change your hairstyle and experiment with a stubble trimmer.
Or try fillers first to see how if looks.
Good luck.
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Thanks for the compliments, but you guys don't think I'd benefit from dropping the jaw angles down a bit further so that my gonial angles aren't so high?
Another option is to leave the jaw angles alone and just place the custom chin implant portion of the wraparound implant (I.e., chin implant only, no jaw implant), since my chin is a little short from the side and a bit narrow from the front.
Do you both really think that augmenting the jaw/chin in any way whatsoever will only make me look worse?
Your gonial angles are not abnormally high and your chin is not so narrow as to be un-aesthetic.
There are many risks associated with chin/jaw implants (both functional and aesthetic risks). You have excellent bone structure and further augmenting this with implants will likely lead to an unnatural appearance. The fact that you are nitpicking your already superb genetics leads me to believe you will do the same with any implants you receive and lead you down a road of constant revisions. You don't want to end up like the Bogandoffs.
Maybe try a fade haircut, leaving it long on top, if you really want to exaggerate your jaw angles by contrast. I strongly advise against plastic surgery in your case.
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Getting surgery to look like SUPER MAN. Just LOL.
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I agree with the others, leave it alone. Yeh you could drop the jaw angles s bit but it might look unnatural. Your chin is a tiny bit pointy But I wouldn’t say it needs surgery at all.
Change your hairstyle and experiment with a stubble trimmer.
Or try fillers first to see how if looks.
Good luck.
Your gonial angles are not abnormally high and your chin is not so narrow as to be un-aesthetic.
There are many risks associated with chin/jaw implants (both functional and aesthetic risks). You have excellent bone structure and further augmenting this with implants will likely lead to an unnatural appearance. The fact that you are nitpicking your already superb genetics leads me to believe you will do the same with any implants you receive and lead you down a road of constant revisions. You don't want to end up like the Bogandoffs.
Maybe try a fade haircut, leaving it long on top, if you really want to exaggerate your jaw angles by contrast. I strongly advise against plastic surgery in your case.
So even if I just opted for the custom chin implant and left the jaw angles alone, do you still think it would look unnatural? The thing is, I have paid for at least the custom cheek and chin implants already and I'm not sure if I am eligible to get a refund on any portion of the surgery at this point. Do you guys really think that even just a custom chin implant would look unnatural?
What about the custom cheek implants? I actually do have relatively flat malar bones and recessed (or at least shallow) orbital rims, as evidenced by the fact that I have noticeable tear troughs, and I have always wanted to get a more defined, masculine look like Henry Cavill or a male model. Do you guys also think that custom cheek implants would be a bad idea as well?
The thing is, when I talk to girls I know about my looks and ask them for their honest opinions on whether they think my looks can be improved or not, they agree that even though they consider me to be fairly good-looking (maybe 6-7/10), they acknowledge that there is definitely room for improvement (not that I'm doing this because some random girl said I need to be better-looking -- just saying that there is some objective agreement that my looks could be improved).
In general, are you guys saying that any plastic surgery at all would result in an natural-looking outcome, and that it isn't possible to get any improvement whatsoever? Not even for the cheeks/orbital rims to improve both the cheek and eye area?
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Getting surgery to look like SUPER MAN. Just LOL.
@Kavan I realize that it sounds crazy when you look at it like that, but I just mentioned Henry Cavill because he's an example of a guy with really good masculine bone structure. In general, though, do you agree with the others that these surgeries will only make me look worse? Even if I just opt for custom cheek and chin implants? Isn't there at least SOME room for improvement?
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Why are you pursuing these implants?
If it’s for what I think it is, sorry but it’s your personality. :)
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So even if I just opted for the custom chin implant and left the jaw angles alone, do you still think it would look unnatural? The thing is, I have paid for at least the custom cheek and chin implants already and I'm not sure if I am eligible to get a refund on any portion of the surgery at this point. Do you guys really think that even just a custom chin implant would look unnatural?
What about the custom cheek implants? I actually do have relatively flat malar bones and recessed (or at least shallow) orbital rims, as evidenced by the fact that I have noticeable tear troughs, and I have always wanted to get a more defined, masculine look like Henry Cavill or a male model. Do you guys also think that custom cheek implants would be a bad idea as well?
The thing is, when I talk to girls I know about my looks and ask them for their honest opinions on whether they think my looks can be improved or not, they agree that even though they consider me to be fairly good-looking (maybe 6-7/10), they acknowledge that there is definitely room for improvement (not that I'm doing this because some random girl said I need to be better-looking -- just saying that there is some objective agreement that my looks could be improved).
In general, are you guys saying that any plastic surgery at all would result in an natural-looking outcome, and that it isn't possible to get any improvement whatsoever? Not even for the cheeks/orbital rims to improve both the cheek and eye area?
Dude, if you are so dead set on getting these implants then knock yourself out. No, I do not think you need implants at any part of your face and yes I think the risks outweigh any potential benefit. Make absolutely sure to ask your doc whether they can be easily removed and how much that will cost though because I honestly think you will end up looking unnatural.
There are a hundred other things you can do to improve your attractiveness that don't involve putting plastic in your already well-developed face. Get jacked and do some direct neck work; that will make your face appear even more masculine. Change up your hair style and wardrobe. Stop being insecure about your good looks (probably most important point here). If there's one thing guaranteed to turn a woman off, it's being the kind of person that would say "okay tell me honestly- do you think I'm cute?". That's your problem man, not your goddamn chin or malar bones.
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@Kavan I realize that it sounds crazy when you look at it like that, but I just mentioned Henry Cavill because he's an example of a guy with really good masculine bone structure. In general, though, do you agree with the others that these surgeries will only make me look worse? Even if I just opt for custom cheek and chin implants? Isn't there at least SOME room for improvement?
It doesn't sound crazy. It sounds hilarious; 'SuperManSurgerySoon'. Bring your cape.
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Dude, if you are so dead set on getting these implants then knock yourself out. No, I do not think you need implants at any part of your face and yes I think the risks outweigh any potential benefit. Make absolutely sure to ask your doc whether they can be easily removed and how much that will cost though because I honestly think you will end up looking unnatural.
There are a hundred other things you can do to improve your attractiveness that don't involve putting plastic in your already well-developed face. Get jacked and do some direct neck work; that will make your face appear even more masculine. Change up your hair style and wardrobe. Stop being insecure about your good looks (probably most important point here). If there's one thing guaranteed to turn a woman off, it's being the kind of person that would say "okay tell me honestly- do you think I'm cute?". That's your problem man, not your goddamn chin or malar bones.
The implants will be made of silicone so that they can be removed in the future if needed. I'm leaning towards leaving the jaw alone and just starting with the custom cheek and chin implants to see how I like the results, then maybe reconsidering the jaw in the future.
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It doesn't sound crazy. It sounds hilarious; 'SuperManSurgerySoon'. Bring your cape.
So I'm guessing you don't have any constructive criticisms for me?
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So I'm guessing you don't have any constructive criticisms for me?
He's telling you your expectations are unrealistic and reasons for wanting PS are absurd in the first place.
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Too much time spent on lookism lol. You definitely don't need jaw implants, and your cheeks aren't great but are above average - I don't really see the tear trough or other issues in the under eye area apart from the lower lid support in the first few pictures, but you know your face better. Your bones are actually amazing, but your eye area is average at best - i'd concentrate all work there
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The implants will be made of silicone so that they can be removed in the future if needed. I'm leaning towards leaving the jaw alone and just starting with the custom cheek and chin implants to see how I like the results, then maybe reconsidering the jaw in the future.
I thought Y does medpor exclusively.
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So I'm guessing you don't have any constructive criticisms for me?
No. Because I've read your (brainless) goals for the surgery. (Multiple as in MANY views of your photos clued me in as to where to read some of them that border on equivalent of secret death wish to get VD in hopes of getting short term sex hook ups at clubs.)
I'm sorry BUT...Nothing says low IQ better than; 'I'm getting surgery to look like a Super hero.' (super model, super celeb ect.).
There's even a new trend in marketing 'Male Model' surgery to appeal to that mentality. Docs are counting on MM wannabees to focus on only the OUTER bone structure of a model but be clueless about the INNER ORBIT structure that distinguishes a MM from the average population. Nothing you or they can do about getting THAT part. Not like the models have. Good cheek and jaw bone structure (real or implant) looks great, comes to life on guys who got the eyes.
Eye POTENTIAL= face KINETIC
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Too much time spent on lookism lol. You definitely don't need jaw implants, and your cheeks aren't great but are above average - I don't really see the tear trough or other issues in the under eye area apart from the lower lid support in the first few pictures, but you know your face better. Your bones are actually amazing, but your eye area is average at best - i'd concentrate all work there
You got it. The tip off was how many views he got on some of his photos.
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No. Because I've read your (brainless) goals for the surgery. (Multiple as in MANY views of your photos clued me in as to where to read some of them that border on equivalent of secret death wish to get VD in hopes of getting short term sex hook ups at clubs.)
I'm sorry BUT...Nothing says low IQ better than; 'I'm getting surgery to look like a Super hero.' (super model, super celeb ect.).
There's even a new trend in marketing 'Male Model' surgery to appeal to that mentality. Docs are counting on MM wannabees to focus on only the OUTER bone structure of a model but be clueless about the INNER ORBIT structure that distinguishes a MM from the average population. Nothing you or they can do about getting THAT part. Not like the models have. Good cheek and jaw bone structure (real or implant) looks great, comes to life on guys who got the eyes.
Eye POTENTIAL= face KINETIC
Criticisms of my motives for getting surgery aside, I agree with you 100% about what you said about the eye area being what really separates normal males from MMs. Even though I know this surgery won't turn me into an MM, don't you think there's at least SOME room for improvement, considering how bad my eye area is now?
If the combination of the orbital rim component of the custom midface implants plus the midface lift can at least give me an above-average eye area (even if it isn't MM-tier), I would be happy with that outcome.
What I want to be sure of, though, is that there IS room for improvement. That's why I'm still on the fence in regards to the jaw implants. I'm pretty sure I will benefit from getting custom midface implants to both improve my eye area and make my cheekbones more masculine and defined, but I'm not 100% sure that I'll derive an aesthetic benefit from the wraparound jaw implant.
As you can see from the specifications of the implant designs, I'll be getting an additional 3-4 mm of orbital rim projection on both eyes. This, in combination with the midface lift to lift my lower eyelids, would have to improve my eye area aesthetics at least somewhat, right?
For the record, the sort of goal I'd like to achieve with jaw implants can be seen in the Photoshop morph below that someone made for me:
https://imgur.com/a/FQxhcEb
Would you guys agree that dropping the height of my jaw angles improves my looks over my current jaw angles?
Also, here's a photo in which I'm holding my chin to make it look more square and defined. This is the goal "look" I'm trying to achieve with the chin implant.
https://m.imgur.com/LoWvJRX
So in summary, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, is there at least SOME room for improvement with my looks, even if I don't have the underlying starting bone structure to look like an MM?
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Too much time spent on lookism lol. You definitely don't need jaw implants, and your cheeks aren't great but are above average - I don't really see the tear trough or other issues in the under eye area apart from the lower lid support in the first few pictures, but you know your face better. Your bones are actually amazing, but your eye area is average at best - i'd concentrate all work there
I agree, my area sucks. I'm hoping that the orbital rim component of the midface implants (along with midface lift to provide lower lid support) will improve my eyes and make them look more masculine, less buggy, and more attractive overall.
I posted this in my previous post as well, but here's a link to a Photoshop morph that simulates the look of having lower jaw angles. You don't think this would be an improvement to my looks?:
https://imgur.com/a/FQxhcEb
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Thanks for the compliments, but you guys don't think I'd benefit from dropping the jaw angles down a bit further so that my gonial angles aren't so high?
Another option is to leave the jaw angles alone and just place the custom chin implant portion of the wraparound implant (I.e., chin implant only, no jaw implant), since my chin is a little short from the side and a bit narrow from the front.
Do you both really think that augmenting the jaw/chin in any way whatsoever will only make me look worse?
Probably will make you look worse cause it might ruin the ogee line and make your face look more boxy. Also, silicone makes the angles more rounded alot of times. So you'll get rounded corners, even if it looks sharp on paper. I will stay away from silicone if I were you. The amount of millimeters on this design is really alot I guess, for someone that already has good jaw and chin from the front.
Look up the potential aestethic disadvantages of silicone: bloated face, rounded corners and unnatural look. It doesn't apply to everyone, some people are happy with their silicone implants, but the revision rate is extremely high (something close to 50 percent), especially for wrap around implants. This also goes for silicone chin implant. Also, a design is just a design. In reality, you deal with a 3d face and not a 2d model, so a good surgeon will shave parts of the implants during the surgery, to make it fit the face. This needs to be done in alot of cases, but sometimes surgeons are lazy, don't have time, don't have the eastethic eye or just think: this is what the client wanted, so I'll leave it like that. Hence the high revision rate and alot of psychological damage. A good procedure is a procedure that goes unnoticed: nobody should ever suspect you've had surgery on the face.
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Making your left eye look like your right eye would be the biggest win.
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A good procedure is a procedure that goes unnoticed: nobody should ever suspect you've had surgery on the face.
* applaud
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Probably will make you look worse cause it might ruin the ogee line and make your face look more boxy. Also, silicone makes the angles more rounded alot of times. So you'll get rounded corners, even if it looks sharp on paper. I will stay away from silicone if I were you. The amount of millimeters on this design is really alot I guess, for someone that already has good jaw and chin from the front.
Look up the potential aestethic disadvantages of silicone: bloated face, rounded corners and unnatural look. It doesn't apply to everyone, some people are happy with their silicone implants, but the revision rate is extremely high (something close to 50 percent), especially for wrap around implants. This also goes for silicone chin implant. Also, a design is just a design. In reality, you deal with a 3d face and not a 2d model, so a good surgeon will shave parts of the implants during the surgery, to make it fit the face. This needs to be done in alot of cases, but sometimes surgeons are lazy, don't have time, don't have the eastethic eye or just think: this is what the client wanted, so I'll leave it like that. Hence the high revision rate and alot of psychological damage. A good procedure is a procedure that goes unnoticed: nobody should ever suspect you've had surgery on the face.
Do you think I should just opt for jaw angle implants that lower the gonial angles and not really make them wider, since everyone seems to think that adding any width at all would be a bad idea?
What do you think about the chin? I haven't uploaded any photos, but it's fairly short from the side and a bit narrow/pointy from the front.
BTW, Dr. Y works with both Medpor and silicone, but he recommended that I get silicone implants instead of Medpor in case I ever want them removed at some point.
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Also @Ben from UK -- check out the Photoshop morph someone made for me in which they lowered my jaw angles and at least attempted to fix my eyes:
https://imgur.com/a/FQxhcEb
You don't think having lower jaw angles (as seen in the photo) would be a positive change for me? What about augmenting the cheeks and fixing the eyes, at least?
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Do you think I should just opt for jaw angle implants that lower the gonial angles and not really make them wider, since everyone seems to think that adding any width at all would be a bad idea?
What do you think about the chin? I haven't uploaded any photos, but it's fairly short from the side and a bit narrow/pointy from the front.
BTW, Dr. Y works with both Medpor and silicone, but he recommended that I get silicone implants instead of Medpor in case I ever want them removed at some point.
Fix your eye asymmetry and you're golden. I'd consult with a top oculoplastic like Taban. He hand carves the implants, but his results are truly impressive.
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Making your left eye look like your right eye would be the biggest win.
I agree, my eye area sucks ass. I'm hoping that the midface implants together with the midface lift can help give me at least a somewhat attractive eye area.
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Criticisms of my motives for getting surgery aside, I agree with you 100% about what you said about the eye area being what really separates normal males from MMs. Even though I know this surgery won't turn me into an MM, don't you think there's at least SOME room for improvement, considering how bad my eye area is now?
If the combination of the orbital rim component of the custom midface implants plus the midface lift can at least give me an above-average eye area (even if it isn't MM-tier), I would be happy with that outcome.
What I want to be sure of, though, is that there IS room for improvement. That's why I'm still on the fence in regards to the jaw implants. I'm pretty sure I will benefit from getting custom midface implants to both improve my eye area and make my cheekbones more masculine and defined, but I'm not 100% sure that I'll derive an aesthetic benefit from the wraparound jaw implant.
As you can see from the specifications of the implant designs, I'll be getting an additional 3-4 mm of orbital rim projection on both eyes. This, in combination with the midface lift to lift my lower eyelids, would have to improve my eye area aesthetics at least somewhat, right?
For the record, the sort of goal I'd like to achieve with jaw implants can be seen in the Photoshop morph below that someone made for me:
https://imgur.com/a/FQxhcEb
Would you guys agree that dropping the height of my jaw angles improves my looks over my current jaw angles?
Also, here's a photo in which I'm holding my chin to make it look more square and defined. This is the goal "look" I'm trying to achieve with the chin implant.
https://m.imgur.com/LoWvJRX
So in summary, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, is there at least SOME room for improvement with my looks, even if I don't have the underlying starting bone structure to look like an MM?
1: The rest of your face looks good and the morpher HARDLY changed the rest of your face. What he changed to your eyes is an EXAMPLE of highly unlikely you would get those eye improvements to that extent with surgery. He made the eye BALL on the right side of the photo perfectly symmetrical to the left side. Your face would look just as good as the morph if you just put the eyes the morpher made on your 'before' and did nothing else. So, basically the morpher changed the VERY THING that throws off you looks --your eyes--which is the very thing docs CAN'T improve to the extent you see it in that morph.
2: Your asymmetry to the eyes looks to be INSIDE the ORBITAL SOCKETS or maybe the eyeball itself. Sure. They can improve something about the eyes. They just can't do everything to re-create MM eyes.
3: Since you do have good symmetry to the rest of your face and it's a given that implants can make INHERENT asymmetry MORE apparent, you very well might be noticing the eye issue even more even after it's improved.
4: No 'asides' here. You are wanting to look like a MM for quick club pick-ups. You're not someone just looking for improvements. Thing is the improvement that would really NEGATE the need for any other implant amp ups is the one they CAN'T do which is the MM eyes.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not telling you not to get it. In fact, I'm most interested in your getting to see if my prediction of not getting close to the MM eyes needed to go with it is right.
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1: The rest of your face looks good and the morpher HARDLY changed the rest of your face. What he changed to your eyes is an EXAMPLE of highly unlikely you would get those eye improvements to that extent with surgery. He made the eye BALL on the right side of the photo perfectly symmetrical to the left side. Your face would look just as good as the morph if you just put the eyes the morpher made on your 'before' and did nothing else. So, basically the morpher changed the VERY THING that throws off you looks --your eyes--which is the very thing docs CAN'T improve to the extent you see it in that morph.
2: Your asymmetry to the eyes looks to be INSIDE the ORBITAL SOCKETS or maybe the eyeball itself. Sure. They can improve something about the eyes. They just can't do everything to re-create MM eyes.
3: Since you do have good symmetry to the rest of your face and it's a given that implants can make INHERENT asymmetry MORE apparent, you very well might be noticing the eye issue even more even after it's improved.
4: No 'asides' here. You are wanting to look like a MM for quick club pick-ups. You're not someone just looking for improvements. Thing is the improvement that would really NEGATE the need for any other implant amp ups is the one they CAN'T do which is the MM eyes.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not telling you not to get it. In fact, I'm most interested in your getting to see if my prediction of not getting close to the MM eyes needed to go with it is right.
I agree with most of what you said, but at this point, I would be happy with a 60-70% improvement to my eye area so that it at least comes across as looking even just fairly attractive and not repulsive like it appears now. I realize that nothing is going to give me a legit MM-tier eye area, but by adding several mm of projection to/around the eye sockets and lifting the lower lids so as to eliminate roundness and scleral show (Dr. Y said 2-3 mm of lower lid lift would be possible via the midface lift), I'm hoping I can at least create the illusion of having deeper-set and better-shaped eyes that at least appear to be baseline attractive.
Have you seen some of Dr. Y's work? You might be surprised to see the eye area improvements he's achieved with the combination of orbital rim/midface implants, midface lifts, and canthopexies. Again, I agree with you that getting the eye area of an actual MM isn't happening (at least not without major reconstructive surgery), but don't you rhink that getting enough improvement to at least make it come across as somewhat attractive is within the realm of attainability?
BTW, the reason I decided to augment both the cheeks and jaw/chin is because I figured if I'm going to travel to have surgery, I might as well improve as many aspects of my attractiveness that could use improvement as possible.
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I agree with most of what you said, but at this point, I would be happy with a 60-70% improvement to my eye area so that it at least comes across as looking even just fairly attractive and not repulsive like it appears now. I realize that nothing is going to give me a legit MM-tier eye area, but by adding several mm of projection to/around the eye sockets and lifting the lower lids so as to eliminate roundness and scleral show (Dr. Y said 2-3 mm of lower lid lift would be possible via the midface lift), I'm hoping I can at least create the illusion of having deeper-set and better-shaped eyes that at least appear to be baseline attractive.
Have you seen some of Dr. Y's work? You might be surprised to see the eye area improvements he's achieved with the combination of orbital rim/midface implants, midface lifts, and canthopexies. Again, I agree with you that getting the eye area of an actual MM isn't happening (at least not without major reconstructive surgery), but don't you rhink that getting enough improvement to at least make it come across as somewhat attractive is within the realm of attainability?
BTW, the reason I decided to augment both the cheeks and jaw/chin is because I figured if I'm going to travel to have surgery, I might as well improve as many aspects of my attractiveness that could use improvement as possible.
I've seen a LOT of Y's work and enough to know that the people with the most eye POTENTIAL end up looking the best and those with inherent issues with the eyes--especially asymmetry where one eye is really 'off'-- start noticing it more even after it's technically improved. If I were you, I would specifically ask to see photos of 'unWONKING' a wonky eye.
You have some kind of opthomology thing or inner orbital socket issue going on. You have something where one eye is looking at you and the other one looks like it's doing something else. ('Lazy eye'?) Sure, he will kick up some improvement to the eye area. But I think you should set your expectations to 'less asymmetry' and leave it at that.
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Also @Ben from UK -- check out the Photoshop morph someone made for me in which they lowered my jaw angles and at least attempted to fix my eyes:
https://imgur.com/a/FQxhcEb
You don't think having lower jaw angles (as seen in the photo) would be a positive change for me? What about augmenting the cheeks and fixing the eyes, at least?
Of course the Photoshop morph looks better. Photoshop has nothing to do with silicone implants. It's crazy to believe that silicone implants give Photoshop results. That is just not true. With photoshop, the ogee line is preserved. But look at the majority of wrap around implants. They go high up under the masseter, pushing the masseter above the jaw angle in horizontal direction, often ruining the ogee line. That's why sometimes you see good results with fillers, because fillers only adress the jawangles, and silicone jaw angles go high up under the masseter. Add to that the fact that a thick layer of scar tissue builds up around the silicone implant, and the fact silicone almost never blends well into the face, and then you'll understand why dr. Y proposed silicone instead of Medpor. Cause he knows there's 50 percent chance you'll be dissatisfied with the results, and he'll just take if out and he won't care anymore. That's why they love to use silicone. It's easy money, once someone is dissatisfied, they'll just take the thing out. It's an outdated material.
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I've seen a LOT of Y's work and enough to know that the people with the most eye POTENTIAL end up looking the best and those with inherent issues with the eyes--especially asymmetry where one eye is really 'off'-- start noticing it more even after it's technically improved. If I were you, I would specifically ask to see photos of 'unWONKING' a wonky eye.
You have some kind of opthomology thing or inner orbital socket issue going on. You have something where one eye is looking at you and the other one looks like it's doing something else. ('Lazy eye'?) Sure, he will kick up some improvement to the eye area. But I think you should set your expectations to 'less asymmetry' and leave it at that.
@Kavan You're right, it's probably best to set my expectations low. I know that people have commented on whether or not I should do the jaw implants, but what's your opinion on the midface implants (technically a combined cheek + orbital rim implant)? Aside from improving the eye area to at least a mild-moderate extent, do you think I'd look better with more anterior projection (which Dr. Y is giving me quite a lot of at ~5 mm) of the cheekbones? I specifically told him I didn't want any submalar augmentation and that I wanted it to look masculine, defined, etc. I'm not sure if it's possible to tell in any of the photos I linked you to, but I actually have a relatively flat midface.
Here are a couple photos I took just now that give you an idea of just how much my cheeks lack anterior projection (also note the droopy/retracted lower eyelids):
https://imgur.com/a/tNh1UG4
You can also see that the chin is fairly weak as well. Dr. Y's plan for the chin is to add 5 mm of additional projection, which is a bit more than 2.5 nickels' widths, so that seems fairly conservative, I think. He also is planning on making it a bit wider to increase squareness.
Do you think I'm most likely to get a good result if I just do the cheeks and chin and leave the jaw alone?
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Yeah okay, it looks a bit weaker from profile, but the problem is: how is it going to look from the front after implants? That's just my opinion. You might fix the weak chin from profile with implants and lower the jawangle, but how will the front look? You might win something from profile and lose from the front. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how i feel about it.
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Of course the Photoshop morph looks better. Photoshop has nothing to do with silicone implants. It's crazy to believe that silicone implants give Photoshop results. That is just not true. With photoshop, the ogee line is preserved. But look at the majority of wrap around implants. They go high up under the masseter, pushing the masseter above the jaw angle in horizontal direction, often ruining the ogee line. That's why sometimes you see good results with fillers, because fillers only adress the jawangles, and silicone jaw angles go high up under the masseter. Add to that the fact that a thick layer of scar tissue builds up around the silicone implant, and the fact silicone almost never blends well into the face, and then you'll understand why dr. Y proposed silicone instead of Medpor. Cause he knows there's 50 percent chance you'll be dissatisfied with the results, and he'll just take if out and he won't care anymore. That's why they love to use silicone. It's easy money, once someone is dissatisfied, they'll just take the thing out. It's an outdated material.
Do you think that silicone is a bad material for cheek/orbital rim implants as well? What about for chin implants? Should I have opted for medpor for all the implants?
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Do you think that silicone is a bad material for cheek/orbital rim implants as well? What about for chin implants? Should I have opted for medpor for all the implants?
Silicone is (my opinion) bad material for everything in the face. It's easy material. Put it in, put it out. Takes about 20 minutes. Easy money. It simply doesn't blend into the face, only in very rare cases maybe. It's soft material, you need hard material that replicates bone. Screws will fall out over the course of months or years, because it's soft, it will move to the bottom of the face when ageing. I'm not a fan of Medpor because what if you don't like the results? How are you going to take it out without cutting soft tissue? I won't say peek or titanium are better, because we just don't have enough data, and we simply don't know the infection rates, bone erosion, etc. But aestethically, they are superior to silicone.
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It's absurd to me that you want to pursue surgery in your case. Most likely you'll go in thinking of the best case scenario, and slightly regretting it ultimately. I mean, I get it - looks are very important. But all I see is a bunch of people getting funneled into a massively over sold industry with generally mediocre or worse results.
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@Kavan You're right, it's probably best to set my expectations low. I know that people have commented on whether or not I should do the jaw implants, but what's your opinion on the midface implants (technically a combined cheek + orbital rim implant)? Aside from improving the eye area to at least a mild-moderate extent, do you think I'd look better with more anterior projection (which Dr. Y is giving me quite a lot of at ~5 mm) of the cheekbones? I specifically told him I didn't want any submalar augmentation and that I wanted it to look masculine, defined, etc. I'm not sure if it's possible to tell in any of the photos I linked you to, but I actually have a relatively flat midface.
Here are a couple photos I took just now that give you an idea of just how much my cheeks lack anterior projection (also note the droopy/retracted lower eyelids):
https://imgur.com/a/tNh1UG4
You can also see that the chin is fairly weak as well. Dr. Y's plan for the chin is to add 5 mm of additional projection, which is a bit more than 2.5 nickels' widths, so that seems fairly conservative, I think. He also is planning on making it a bit wider to increase squareness.
Do you think I'm most likely to get a good result if I just do the cheeks and chin and leave the jaw alone?
Doesn't matter. You didn't go in there with a focus on improvement as in looking like a better YOU. You went in there wanting some facial parts of a MM/celeb and the implants approximate THOSE parts. So, you will be getting the MM PARTS you requested. You will just have to wait and see how those parts look on YOUR face. Divine or Different. Besides, last I checked, once the implants are designed and surgery is soon, no room for changes.
As to the 'should I get more projection', let it be known that he gets a lot of guys who want to look like BLOCK HEADS. They don't go in there specifically asking to look like a dumb LUNK and they don't know that's what they are asking for with the 'make me look like superman' genre of requests. It's just that their emphasis is having a jaw (or cheeks) 'just like' this or that model or celeb can just kick up a result of looking 'different' but not meet the goals of what they were exactly wanting or expecting to get out of it.
So, now with the VSP implant design programs, he gives people what they they ASK FOR. His hands are clean though if the end result is a 'monkeys paw' deal (getting what you ask for but wishing you didn't).
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Silicone is (my opinion) bad material for everything in the face. It's easy material. Put it in, put it out. Takes about 20 minutes. Easy money. It simply doesn't blend into the face, only in very rare cases maybe. It's soft material, you need hard material that replicates bone. Screws will fall out over the course of months or years, because it's soft, it will move to the bottom of the face when ageing. I'm not a fan of Medpor because what if you don't like the results? How are you going to take it out without cutting soft tissue? I won't say peek or titanium are better, because we just don't have enough data, and we simply don't know the infection rates, bone erosion, etc. But aestethically, they are superior to silicone.
I had no idea silicone was such a s**tty material for face implants. Not that I'm arguing, but do you have any articles I could check out that mention screws being likely to fall out of silicone implants eventually?
Now I'm thinking I should've gone with medpor and just dealt with the risk that future removal might be really difficult.
Here are a few more photos I uploaded where you can really see the deficiencies in my bone structure. Obviously, the first series of photos I uploaded were taken in flattering lighting, after exercising and losing a lot of water weight, etc. These weren't:
https://imgur.com/a/hYjgfjg
Looking at those photos, do you still think I wouldn't benefit from getting implants placed to improve cheek and chin projection at least (not to mention the midface lift to improve lower eyelids)? You don't see how flat the midface is when I'm not frauding by clenching my jaw, flexing my cheek muscles, etc?
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Doesn't matter. You didn't go in there with a focus on improvement as in looking like a better YOU. You went in there wanting some facial parts of a MM/celeb and the implants approximate THOSE parts. So, you will be getting the MM PARTS you requested. You will just have to wait and see how those parts look on YOUR face. Divine or Different. Besides, last I checked, once the implants are designed and surgery is soon, no room for changes.
As to the 'should I get more projection', let it be known that he gets a lot of guys who want to look like BLOCK HEADS. They don't go in there specifically asking to look like a dumb LUNK and they don't know that's what they are asking for with the 'make me look like superman' genre of requests. It's just that their emphasis is having a jaw (or cheeks) 'just like' this or that model or celeb can just kick up a result of looking 'different' but not meet the goals of what they were exactly wanting or expecting to get out of it.
So, now with the VSP implant design programs, he gives people what they they ASK FOR. His hands are clean though if the end result is a 'monkeys paw' deal (getting what you ask for but wishing you didn't).
I get what you are saying, but I was under the impression that Dr. Y was still somewhat conservative when it comes to trying to give patients results that are still aesthetically pleasing. In other words, if getting "only" 60% of a certain look is as far as he feels someone can go while still looking attractive and normal, then he won't go any further than that.
That's one reason I never considered going to Eppley -- I understand that he truly will give a patient whatever they want, even if it isn't likely to result in an aesthetically pleasing outcome. There are plenty of before/after results that demonstrate this willingness as well. So now you're saying that Dr. Y is just as bad as Dr. E in that regard?
To be honest, one of my reasons for choosing Dr. Y for these procedures was because I trusted him to design implants that would get me somewhat close to my goal while still looking "good" in a general aesthetic sense.
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I get what you are saying, but I was under the impression that Dr. Y was still somewhat conservative when it comes to trying to give patients results that are still aesthetically pleasing. In other words, if getting "only" 60% of a certain look is as far as he feels someone can go while still looking attractive and normal, then he won't go any further than that.
That's one reason I never considered going to Eppley -- I understand that he truly will give a patient whatever they want, even if it isn't likely to result in an aesthetically pleasing outcome. There are plenty of before/after results that demonstrate this willingness as well. So now you're saying that Dr. Y is just as bad as Dr. E in that regard?
To be honest, one of my reasons for choosing Dr. Y for these procedures was because I trusted him to design implants that would get me somewhat close to my goal while still looking "good" in a general aesthetic sense.
I think Y is more skilled than Eppley. But this is big biz and the present day market of guys wanting to have block head looks (even if they don't know they are asking for it) has SKEWED things. Y sees that a lot of dumb lunks are HAPPY when they get a disproportionate look. So it looks like he's just letting people take more responsibility for their requests.
You didn't go in there with a general request to look good. Don't bulls**t me. You went in there wanting the face PARTS of Superman just like a lot of Eppley patients and/or Lookism types wanting to increase their lay base.
As I said, the PARTS you requested DO look to be the parts models have but I don't see you getting the whole 'gestalt' of the MM because that's directly attributable to the EYES.
One of your eyes is OK but you do have one problem eye which throws of the whole balance of your face. Here's your most recent photo where I've flipped the sides of your face. This should make it easier for people to see that it's ONE eye that's changing the whole look of your face. I know we speak in PLURAL as in eyeS. But I would suggest you ask him more questions about the SINGULAR eye and what 'matching up' with the other one you can expect.
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Wow yep it’s just that eye. Scrap the implants and fix that. And seriously get a stubble trimmer and do number 5 on the goatee and number 3 on the sides . It’ll look great
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Kavan is right. And to repeat, you have perfectly normal and even above 'average' structure and facial balance. If you REALLY want to add something like more chin projection or length I think you would be better off with a small SG than a silicone implant. Better long term stability and you won't be constantly worried about things shifting around because it's your own bone.
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I mean this as a friend: you definitely have some kind of BDD issue. I would cancel all surgeries and see a therapist. I can't believe Dr. Y would even agree to do things like a midface lift etc. on you. It's madness.
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I think Y is more skilled than Eppley. But this is big biz and the present day market of guys wanting to have block head looks (even if they don't know they are asking for it) has SKEWED things. Y sees that a lot of dumb lunks are HAPPY when they get a disproportionate look. So it looks like he's just letting people take more responsibility for their requests.
You didn't go in there with a general request to look good. Don't bulls**t me. You went in there wanting the face PARTS of Superman just like a lot of Eppley patients and/or Lookism types wanting to increase their lay base.
As I said, the PARTS you requested DO look to be the parts models have but I don't see you getting the whole 'gestalt' of the MM because that's directly attributable to the EYES.
One of your eyes is OK but you do have one problem eye which throws of the whole balance of your face. Here's your most recent photo where I've flipped the sides of your face. This should make it easier for people to see that it's ONE eye that's changing the whole look of your face. I know we speak in PLURAL as in eyeS. But I would suggest you ask him more questions about the SINGULAR eye and what 'matching up' with the other one you can expect.
I have emailed Dr. Y and asked him what he plans on doing (aside from the midface lift) to improve the eyes; will report back when I hear from him. I'm still not 100% confirmed on the wraparound jaw implant, so depending on how I feel about it as I get closer to the surgery date, I might just opt for the custom cheek and chin implants.
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Kavan is right. And to repeat, you have perfectly normal and even above 'average' structure and facial balance. If you REALLY want to add something like more chin projection or length I think you would be better off with a small SG than a silicone implant. Better long term stability and you won't be constantly worried about things shifting around because it's your own bone.
Wow yep it’s just that eye. Scrap the implants and fix that. And seriously get a stubble trimmer and do number 5 on the goatee and number 3 on the sides . It’ll look great
What about midface augmentation? You don't think I would benefit from adding projection and definition to my cheeks and orbital rims?
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I mean this as a friend: you definitely have some kind of BDD issue. I would cancel all surgeries and see a therapist. I can't believe Dr. Y would even agree to do things like a midface lift etc. on you. It's madness.
My understanding is that Dr. Y's primary reasons for agreeing to do the midface lift are to improve my eye area by reducing lower eyelid drooping/retraction and to eliminate nasolabial folds that have developed in recent years.
So you don't think I could improve my looks in any way whatsoever?
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My understanding is that Dr. Y's primary reasons for agreeing to do the midface lift are to improve my eye area by reducing lower eyelid drooping/retraction and to eliminate nasolabial folds that have developed in recent years.
So you don't think I could improve my looks in any way whatsoever?
you look pretty good as is.
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I had no idea silicone was such a s**tty material for face implants. Not that I'm arguing, but do you have any articles I could check out that mention screws being likely to fall out of silicone implants eventually?
Now I'm thinking I should've gone with medpor and just dealt with the risk that future removal might be really difficult.
Here are a few more photos I uploaded where you can really see the deficiencies in my bone structure. Obviously, the first series of photos I uploaded were taken in flattering lighting, after exercising and losing a lot of water weight, etc. These weren't:
https://imgur.com/a/hYjgfjg
Looking at those photos, do you still think I wouldn't benefit from getting implants placed to improve cheek and chin projection at least (not to mention the midface lift to improve lower eyelids)? You don't see how flat the midface is when I'm not frauding by clenching my jaw, flexing my cheek muscles, etc?
The inconveniences of silicone are all known and have been discussed many times. In many cases it ruins the ogee line and shadows and bloats up the face. The ogee line is one of the most important facial traits. Even if someone lowers the jaw angles or broadens the jaw, ruining the ogee line will make the person worse looking. That's why photoshops look so good. The ogee line is never ruined on Photoshop and the shadows stay in place.
Yes, you have flat parts on your face. So, yes, you could improve on those parts. Would I do it with silicone? That's not something i have to decide.
You also have a bit of a weak chin and high golonial angle from profile, so I do understand your idea, but it's the front that counts way more. From the front, your problem seems to be the flat midface and something with the eyes (probably bit lack of bone support there).
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I mean this as a friend: you definitely have some kind of BDD issue. I would cancel all surgeries and see a therapist. I can't believe Dr. Y would even agree to do things like a midface lift etc. on you. It's madness.
He doesn't have BDD. The flaws he sees are real, they are just not major flaws that are worth risking a complete wrap around silicone implant that can ruin the front. I think he could improve his midface and eye area.
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What about midface augmentation? You don't think I would benefit from adding projection and definition to my cheeks and orbital rims?
I don’t know much about that but if it helps your eye that’s what I’d go for. Dude you’re not hideous at all but if you’re set on plastic surgery that’s what i’d Focus on. I think anything to your jaw would be a mistake. Sliding genioplasty might make your chin too long and pointy. What about filler on the sides of the chin to make it wider and squarer? Is it Dr Yaremchuk you are seeing?
Good luck.
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He doesn't have BDD. The flaws he sees are real, they are just not major flaws that are worth risking a complete wrap around silicone implant that can ruin the front. I think he could improve his midface and eye area.
You're a complete idiot.
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Looking at your side profile your cheeks look pretty flat so I think infraorbital/high cheek implants would be an improvement. My cheeks project pretty similarly and I was told by Dr. Sinn I would be a good candidate for his malar ostetomy.
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The inconveniences of silicone are all known and have been discussed many times. In many cases it ruins the ogee line and shadows and bloats up the face. The ogee line is one of the most important facial traits. Even if someone lowers the jaw angles or broadens the jaw, ruining the ogee line will make the person worse looking. That's why photoshops look so good. The ogee line is never ruined on Photoshop and the shadows stay in place.
Yes, you have flat parts on your face. So, yes, you could improve on those parts. Would I do it with silicone? That's not something i have to decide.
You also have a bit of a weak chin and high golonial angle from profile, so I do understand your idea, but it's the front that counts way more. From the front, your problem seems to be the flat midface and something with the eyes (probably bit lack of bone support there).
Are you PROJECTING your own experience having to do with the SHAPE of something where the shape did not suit you and extrapolating that to the MATERIAL itself. Seems like it.
The ogee 'line' is the CHEEK CURVE when seen from 3/4 view. Silicone doesn't 'ruin' the ogee curve. What ever bad experiences you have personally had were probably due to the SHAPE you got and not the material itself.
Silicone is a fine material to use, especially for CUSTOM implants which are designed to cover LARGE areas in one piece. They can be squeezed/collapsed to be placed through a small incision and one can FEEL the FIT. Years back at a PS meeting with IMPLANT TECH I tried some out on a skull model and I could feel the fit. They allow the surgeon to have 'eyes in his fingers'. They also mimic BOTH bone structure and soft tissue thereby allowing LARGER augmentations than could be done with hard porex. When the material is hard porex, it would need to be CUT UP to place it if the implant to go in were a BROAD BASE implant such as midface that spanned an entire area or a wrap around jaw implant that included the chin.
What can 'ruin' any curve or angle is either (poor) SHAPE selection or poor FIT of the implant, for example an off the shelf implant that does not fit bone structure snugly.
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Are you PROJECTING your own experience having to do with the SHAPE of something where the shape did not suit you and extrapolating that to the MATERIAL itself. Seems like it.
The ogee 'line' is the CHEEK CURVE when seen from 3/4 view. Silicone doesn't 'ruin' the ogee curve. What ever bad experiences you have personally had were probably due to the SHAPE you got and not the material itself.
Silicone is a fine material to use, especially for CUSTOM implants which are designed to cover LARGE areas in one piece. They can be squeezed/collapsed to be placed through a small incision and one can FEEL the FIT. Years back at a PS meeting with IMPLANT TECH I tried some out on a skull model and I could feel the fit. They allow the surgeon to have 'eyes in his fingers'. They also mimic BOTH bone structure and soft tissue thereby allowing LARGER augmentations than could be done with hard porex. When the material is hard porex, it would need to be CUT UP to place it if the implant to go in were a BROAD BASE implant such as midface that spanned an entire area or a wrap around jaw implant that included the chin.
What can 'ruin' any curve or angle is either (poor) SHAPE selection or poor FIT of the implant, for example an off the shelf implant that does not fit bone structure snugly.
Less and less surgeons in Europe use silicone. They consider it as 'something from the past'.
https://www.2passclinic.com/why-theres-no-place-for-silicon-implants-in-facial-augmentation/
Silicone
Silicone implants are used in the face for chin augmentation. A pocket needs to be created that is not bigger than the implant itself because otherwise the implant will not stay in place. It is not possible to fixate silicon implants with screws, because the silicone is too soft for it. The silicone would rupture at the position of the screw and the implant would be loose again.
This is also the reason why silicon implants are exclusively used in the face for chin augmentation. This is the only place where acceptable esthetic results are achievable with such an implant. In all other parts of the face the risk is too high that the pocket is not made exactly where the implant should come and then there is no way for the surgeon to correct this. The implant will always go to the lowest point of the pocket.
Another disadvantage of the silicone implant is the unnatural look it mostly gives, if not at the beginning then after a few years when the body of the patient reacts by forming a capsule around the facial implants. The capsule will contract with time and the look becomes more and more unnatural. The unnatural look is the reason why lots of patients have their silicone chin implant removed after a few years. As facial implants, silicone implants are simply not suited
*Example of ruined ogee line, missing 'shadows' and bloated face after silicone implant, see this threads: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6643.0
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Looking at your side profile your cheeks look pretty flat so I think infraorbital/high cheek implants would be an improvement. My cheeks project pretty similarly and I was told by Dr. Sinn I would be a good candidate for his malar ostetomy.
Yeah, I feel pretty confident about the custom midface implants, as well as the midface lift to raise the lower eyelids.
He doesn't have BDD. The flaws he sees are real, they are just not major flaws that are worth risking a complete wrap around silicone implant that can ruin the front. I think he could improve his midface and eye area.
Finally, someone who seems to "get it," so to speak. I don't think I'm a legitimately ugly guy, but at the same time, I have always wanted to look better and yield the... benefits... of being better-looking. When I walk around out in public, I see plenty of guys that are way worse-looking than me, so I realize that my starting point could be much lower than it is.
Do you think the morph photo I posted earlier where my jaw angles are lowered is an improvement? Maybe I could ask Dr. Y about lowering the angles and not really adding much width. They just look so steep from the side.
I don’t know much about that but if it helps your eye that’s what I’d go for. Dude you’re not hideous at all but if you’re set on plastic surgery that’s what i’d Focus on. I think anything to your jaw would be a mistake. Sliding genioplasty might make your chin too long and pointy. What about filler on the sides of the chin to make it wider and squarer? Is it Dr Yaremchuk you are seeing?
Good luck.
Thanks. Yes, I'm going with Dr. Yaremchuk for the surgery. I agree that my eye area sucks, and I'm hoping that the combination of orbital rim implants + midface lift will really help improve the area (as well as make me more defined and masculine-looking in general).
So you don't think that it would look good to at least drop my jaw angles, even if I didn't add any width?
you look pretty good as is.
Thanks
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Less and less surgeons in Europe use silicone. They consider it as 'something from the past'.
https://www.2passclinic.com/why-theres-no-place-for-silicon-implants-in-facial-augmentation/
Silicone
Silicone implants are used in the face for chin augmentation. A pocket needs to be created that is not bigger than the implant itself because otherwise the implant will not stay in place. It is not possible to fixate silicon implants with screws, because the silicone is too soft for it. The silicone would rupture at the position of the screw and the implant would be loose again.
This is also the reason why silicon implants are exclusively used in the face for chin augmentation. This is the only place where acceptable esthetic results are achievable with such an implant. In all other parts of the face the risk is too high that the pocket is not made exactly where the implant should come and then there is no way for the surgeon to correct this. The implant will always go to the lowest point of the pocket.
Another disadvantage of the silicone implant is the unnatural look it mostly gives, if not at the beginning then after a few years when the body of the patient reacts by forming a capsule around the facial implants. The capsule will contract with time and the look becomes more and more unnatural. The unnatural look is the reason why lots of patients have their silicone chin implant removed after a few years. As facial implants, silicone implants are simply not suited
*Example of ruined ogee line, missing 'shadows' and bloated face after silicone implant, see this threads: http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php?topic=6643.0
This is the opinion of a LESSER doctor than Y. He's even using Y's photo of a patient and not giving attribution. Y also used to use the porex off the shelf implants and hand adjusted them. But now gives silicone as an option as it is easier to remove if a patient doesn't like it. Dr. Terino was one of THE first implant guys and he always used silicone and with good results. Ramirez used both. So top implant 'movers and shakers' are those 3 docs and NOT the one you linked to.
ETA. Your JSF linked linked to a SCAMMER; SJ .
ETA: The photos of a bad outcome are a function of what I SAID in my post which is poor SHAPE or poor FIT but not the material.
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This is the opinion of a LESSER doctor than Y. He's even using Y's photo of a patient and not giving attribution. Y also used to use the porex off the shelf implants and hand adjusted them. But now gives silicone as an option as it is easier to remove if a patient doesn't like it. Dr. Terino was one of THE first implant guys and he always used silicone and with good results. Ramirez used both. So top implant 'movers and shakers' are those 3 docs and NOT the one you linked to.
ETA. Your JSF linked linked to a SCAMMER; SJ .
ETA: The photos of a bad outcome are a function of what I SAID in my post which is poor SHAPE or poor FIT but not the material.
Not only the opinion of Bart but the opinion of more surgeons i spoke. I had silicone implants and it didn't look natural because silicone basically 'pushes' the soft tissue outwards. The soft tissue never really integrates onto the implant, the implant doesn't 'blend' into the face in a natural way in most cases, the tissue doesn't 'stick' on it, the implant is smooth and scar tissue builds around it. This is a common issue that makes it look unnatural, especially with wrap around implants.
I also was able to see the results of peek, titanium, silicone and medpor in surgeon's offices. From what i could see, aestethically speaking: peek>titanium>medpor>silicone.
I do agree the size of the silicone implant is also important for more natural results . But there are more problems with silicone. The screws get loose (which happened to me as well), which can make the implant move. A couple of surgeons told me it's soft material and therefore not okay because the material needs to be hard to replicate bone. Revision rates are as high as 30-40 and sometimes 50 percent (but i know with other implant materials there isn't enough data to make a good comparison).
I guess it's an open debate, but to say i'm projecting is not true.
P.S: I used the picture in SJ's thread, which can be found on the net. It's only about the pic.
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I mean this as a friend: you definitely have some kind of BDD issue. I would cancel all surgeries and see a therapist. I can't believe Dr. Y would even agree to do things like a midface lift etc. on you. It's madness.
He might not have BDD but he does have some kind of 'issue' that concern his motivations to look like 'Superman' and also his FLOUNDERING in indecision about this for many years. He's been on RS for like 6 years deliberating this and asking doctors what procedures will kick up the Superman face. Think I may have seen his posts on MMH too where he was getting surgery 'soon'. Now this, with all the implants made and he's still floundering. I took a look at his 'Lookism' posts where the reveal is the fantasy/expectation that this surgery will result in a stream of hot promiscuous chicks falling at his feet wanting one night stands with him and with no work or charm or personality on his part to offer them.
Not passing judgment on the fantasy because what guy (other than another super MM) wouldn't want to look like Cavill and what guy, handsome or homely, wouldn't want hot chicks falling at their feet. But when THAT is the GOAL of having the surgery, it's called an 'UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION'. So the fantasy is normal. But the expectation of surgery turning that fantasy into a reality is ABNORMAL.
My take is that he wants to transform from 'incel' to 'in and out cell' but the surgery isn't going to help him pump it up and pump it up real good if he can't pump it up at all without surgery. I take that he thinks that ONLY a nice face is THE ticket to a high lay count of hot promiscuous chicks. So, after his surgery, not only should he wear his cape to the clubs but he might also have to sport a T shirt that says; 'Got Viagra' or 'Got a sex manual'.
I don't think he should cancel though. I think he should go through with it. No flies on Y when Y accommodates a request that the implants be (some of) the PARTS a MM has. Y still has some restraint and won't go overboard. As long as Y didn't tell him 'Oh yes, you will look just like Cavill and this will increase your lay count dramatically.'
So, maybe not BDD. But I think you may have picked up on something in the venue that veers from reality.
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Not only the opinion of Bart but the opinion of more surgeons i spoke. I had silicone implants and it didn't look natural because silicone basically 'pushes' the soft tissue outwards. The soft tissue never really integrates onto the implant, the implant doesn't 'blend' into the face in a natural way in most cases, the tissue doesn't 'stick' on it, the implant is smooth and scar tissue builds around it. This is a common issue that makes it look unnatural, especially with wrap around implants.
I also was able to see the results of peek, titanium, silicone and medpor in surgeon's offices. From what i could see, aestethically speaking: peek>titanium>medpor>silicone.
I do agree the size of the silicone implant is also important for more natural results . But there are more problems with silicone. The screws get loose (which happened to me as well), which can make the implant move. A couple of surgeons told me it's soft material and therefore not okay because the material needs to be hard to replicate bone. Revision rates are as high as 30-40 and sometimes 50 percent (but i know with other implant materials there isn't enough data to make a good comparison).
I guess it's an open debate, but to say i'm projecting is not true.
P.S: I used the picture in SJ's thread, which can be found on the net. It's only about the pic.
There are basic pros and cons of silicone vs 'porex' (trade name). A pro of silicone is that the the tissue does NOT integrate into the implant which is usually described as 'easy' to remove. The CON of porex is HARD to remove but the con is described as the pro of tissue integration.
Revision rates could be higher with silicone because they give more of the 'easy to remove if I don't like it' option.
As to the photo, my comment about it was that it was example of what I said. It's either the SHAPE of implant as in wrong selection of one or the fit of it. But that mostly applies to off the shelf implants. As I said, one can get MORE augmentation with silicone than with porex because silicone mimics BOTH soft tissue and bone structure underneath. Do the same extent of augmentation with HARD material and it gives a GARGOYLE effect which is why they have to be much more conservative with porex augments than with silicone. Like a large augment with porex would make someone look very skeletal because it's TOO MUCH bone look with large augment which is one of the factors in selecting implant materials. Large broad base augments where some soft tissue needs to be mimicked, best to do with silicone. Smaller targeted augments, best to do with porex. Lack of soft tissue coverage will LIMIT the amount of augmentation you can get with porex. Because too much of a porex augment could look like really thin skin over 'bone' and that's what I mean by skeletal. Some of these; 'I want to look like a Male model' requests resolve to significant augmentations which is why silicone is better choice. Especially if the patient is thin or doesn't have a lot of soft tissue coverage to put in a large porex augment.
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That's interesting.
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That's interesting.
Yes. Indeed. Before the advent of VSP programs to custom design implants, Dr. Y used to use off the shelf porex ones and hand shape them. But soft tissue coverage would limit the extent of the augmentation, lest too much augment with 'bone look' material would give too much of a bone look (skeletal) look to face. So, he had to be more conservative with the augments than were some other docs using the silicone where the silicone mimicked both bone shape but soft tissue coverage on top of that.
As for the jaw implants, which did IMPROVE patients, there were always those who would gripe; 'Oh he's too conservative.' or 'I got a 'U' shaped jaw and not an 'angular' 'square' look'. Well, for one, he had to be conservative as to extent of jaw augment due to soft tissue coverage being a limitation of extent to do with porex. For two, that 'angular' square from the front look didn't arise in patients where the border of their posterior jaws were kind of going 'inwards'. It's because the implants augmented but they kind of 'followed' the native inward oriented jaws. So in patients having that type of anatomy, the implants widened, dropped down and all but the end contour (from the front) was not what you see in say Brad Pitt or the MMs. WAs not that 'square from the front' or 'angled' look. It was just a wider 'U' shape.
So, with advent of the VSP programs to design implants, they are able to design ones (here for the jaw) that sort of 'WING OUT' the posterior jaw which is what gives the angled out from the front look. The advent of the VSP programs, I guess, came with the drive of jaw implant docs getting more requests to have the MM look (which usually is the jaw angles sticking out from the front) and/or complaints from patients hoping jaw augments would do that but finding out they didn't do that but not realizing they couldn't do that IF the person's native jaw angled inwards too much.
To that regard, the act of angling outward the posterior jaw and also dropping it down as to accommodate requests of; 'I want the type of jaw the MM has'--especially in someone who starts with them angling inward and/or starts with HIGH set jaw angles-- can constitute a SIGNIFICANT augmentation. If all that were done with a HARD material with NO 'cushioning' look to it, it could look weirdly skeletal, gargoylish or just look like someone with 'great bone structure' BUT who has AGED a lot. Again, too much bone coming out of face with no cushion over it can look AGING. Like aesthetic risk could be something like going from young looking guy with not the best bone structure to OLD MAN look with GREAT bone structure. Too much bone jutting out of the face with no soft cushioning over it looks AGING.
Since the silicone DOES have a 'cushioning' effect to it as to mimick soft tissue coverage over the bone, that's why it's often selected for some of the SIGNIFICANT augmentations where implants have to be bigger, broader to FULFILL a request of a patient wanting a PART that a model has (midface area, jaw line usually). I mean, more often than not, a patient who in NO WAY has a start point that looks anything like a MM, is going to need a significant augmentation to fufill the REQUEST of wanting 'this or that' PART that a MM has.
So, that's ONE of the reasons silicone is selected over porex for a significant augmentation and don't ya know that those requests are inherent to guys with the 'I want what the MM has' requests. The OTHER reason for it being selected is that it's easier to put in via a smaller incision because it can be collapsed/squeezed in hand for entry and they can FEEL the FIT once it's in there. But of course ANOTHER reason for it's selection is the ease of REMOVAL in the event a patient might not like the look of what he asked for, (perhaps from a subconscious desire to see himself looking a LOT like the MM in the mirror where that doesn't happen or that the implants don't change the part of his life he was hoping would change with them). But aside from the type of patients who have hidden or 'ausgef**ked' goals for how those implants are going to change their lives, silicone ones can provide significant augmentations that could look TOO bony or skeletal if done with porex.
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@Kavan This was a very insightful reply which has somewhat "demystified" the argument between medpor & silicone. It has also given greater clarity to Silicone (at-least for me).
I needed significant augmentation to bring me to where I wanted to be aesthetically and I loved my design/look but became extremely averse to silicone after infection. I inquired to my surgeon to have the same/similar design in porex but he basically advised we stay with silicone: I didn't understand why at the time as he was known for working with porex, almost exclusively but now it makes sense.
Thanks!
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What's the reason they couldn't do it if the jawline was inwards, Kavan?
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What's the reason they couldn't do it if the jawline was inwards, Kavan?
The (porex) implant that made the jaw both wider and gave a drop was Epker style with 10mm width and drop increase (also increased back of ramus) along border of mandible. It's just that those dimensions alone just FOLLOW the native orientation of the jaw. But they don't 'wedge out' laterally the back jaw angle if person has native inwardly inclined back of the jaw angles. They did a good job on jaws with little inward incline though. Although they did give significant improvement to people with inward inclined back of jaw angles, it was something better seen in profile and oblique views. It's just that it's hard to create that 'flip out' to the jaw angle for them to square from the FRONT unless you DESIGN flip out on the skull model either directly or with a VSP program.
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Hi Kavan, I think you're talking about Medpor (porex), am I right? What about PEEK and Titanium? They seem to give superior aestethic results (putting aside the size factors).
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Hi Kavan, I think you're talking about Medpor (porex), am I right? What about PEEK and Titanium? They seem to give superior aestethic results (putting aside the size factors).
I'm talking about medpor (porex). Titanium is HARD substance. So same holds like medpor as to using it for a significant augmentation. I've never held a PEEK implant in my hand whereas I've done so with titanium and porex/medpor. But if it's a hard material, than same holds as to what I stressed about why HARD materials are not good for significant augmentations. I just hope you understand the general CONCEPT I covered because I can't write everything about every possible material.
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I'm talking about medpor (porex). Titanium is HARD substance. So same holds like medpor as to using it for a significant augmentation. I've never held a PEEK implant in my hand whereas I've done so with titanium and porex/medpor. But if it's a hard material, than same holds as to what I stressed about why HARD materials are not good for significant augmentations. I just hope you understand the general CONCEPT I covered because I can't write everything about every possible material.
I believe PEEK is both hard and porous, like porex.
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I believe PEEK is both hard and porous, like porex.
Thanx. Then the same general rule of thumb would apply where LARGE of SIGNIFICANT augments are best avoided with the hard materials for the reasons I elaborated on in my prior (long) post.
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He might not have BDD but he does have some kind of 'issue' that concern his motivations to look like 'Superman' and also his FLOUNDERING in indecision about this for many years. He's been on RS for like 6 years deliberating this and asking doctors what procedures will kick up the Superman face. Think I may have seen his posts on MMH too where he was getting surgery 'soon'. Now this, with all the implants made and he's still floundering. I took a look at his 'Lookism' posts where the reveal is the fantasy/expectation that this surgery will result in a stream of hot promiscuous chicks falling at his feet wanting one night stands with him and with no work or charm or personality on his part to offer them.
Not passing judgment on the fantasy because what guy (other than another super MM) wouldn't want to look like Cavill and what guy, handsome or homely, wouldn't want hot chicks falling at their feet. But when THAT is the GOAL of having the surgery, it's called an 'UNREALISTIC EXPECTATION'. So the fantasy is normal. But the expectation of surgery turning that fantasy into a reality is ABNORMAL.
My take is that he wants to transform from 'incel' to 'in and out cell' but the surgery isn't going to help him pump it up and pump it up real good if he can't pump it up at all without surgery. I take that he thinks that ONLY a nice face is THE ticket to a high lay count of hot promiscuous chicks. So, after his surgery, not only should he wear his cape to the clubs but he might also have to sport a T shirt that says; 'Got Viagra' or 'Got a sex manual'.
I don't think he should cancel though. I think he should go through with it. No flies on Y when Y accommodates a request that the implants be (some of) the PARTS a MM has. Y still has some restraint and won't go overboard. As long as Y didn't tell him 'Oh yes, you will look just like Cavill and this will increase your lay count dramatically.'
So, maybe not BDD. But I think you may have picked up on something in the venue that veers from reality.
To be fair, what you refer to as "floundering" over the years (since I started posting on RS way back in 2013) is simply the result of a pretty standard combination of factors that would make pursuing (and eventually having) such a dramatic surgery a long, drawn-out process for almost anyone: finding the time to take off from work/school (I am in graduate school and also have a job with an all-over-the-place schedule), securing the finances, deciding on a surgeon, etc. In all honesty, I'm glad it has taken me 6+ years to finally schedule the surgery, because over the past half decade, my face (especially my midface) has started exhibiting some very obvious early signs of aging -- e.g., nasolabial folds, worsening eyelid retraction, a generally more "tired" look, etc. If I had actually gotten the surgery done when I originally wanted to 6+ years ago, I probably wouldn't have been a candidate for a midface lift back then. Now, I at least have the opportunity to have this procedure done concurrently with the implant surgery so that I can at least partially reverse some of these signs of aging.
Another reason I took so long to finally pull the trigger on getting the surgery is because I had a hard time settling on a surgeon for a year or two. For a while, I was leaning towards Eppley, but there's just something that seems so... off about many of his surgical outcomes. It's like he has the technical skill of a surgeon, but he lacks the aesthetic eye. On the other hand, Yaremchuk might have had a few somewhat unnatural-looking outcomes over the years, but overall, he seems to have a more tasteful aesthetic sensibility than Eppley.
Say what you want about my goals and motives to become a so-called "hookup guy" at bars and clubs, but there really IS such a thing as guys who are so good-looking that women all but offer themselves up to them in those kinds of social venues, especially when alcohol is involved. I'm not saying these surgeries are going to turn me into one of those guys (in fact, I'm pretty sure they won't, unless Dr. Y is some sort of miracle-worker). Simply visit a busy bar/club on a Friday or Saturday night and actively observe which kinds of guys tend to get the most unprovoked, low-/no-effort attention from girls.
BTW, I don't where all this talk about me wearing a cape is coming from. When it came to getting inspiration for the type of "look" I'd like to have, I simply selected photos of an actor who happened to play the character of Superman in a couple movies. Even if he hadn't been cast as Superman, I still would've considered him an aesthetic "ideal" to emulate.
BTW, Dr. Y didn't promise to make me look just like Henry Cavill or to increase my lay count. During the consultation appointment, he just said, "I can't make you look *just* like that guy, but we'll see how close we can get you." I just hope that he designed the implants with the imperative in mind to ensure that regardless of how close he gets to making me "look" like Henry Cavill, the outcome is still generally attractive according to most peoples' tastes.
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To be fair, what you refer to as "floundering" over the years (since I started posting on RS way back in 2013) is simply the result of a pretty standard combination of factors that would make pursuing (and eventually having) such a dramatic surgery a long, drawn-out process for almost anyone: finding the time to take off from work/school (I am in graduate school and also have a job with an all-over-the-place schedule), securing the finances, deciding on a surgeon, etc. In all honesty, I'm glad it has taken me 6+ years to finally schedule the surgery, because over the past half decade, my face (especially my midface) has started exhibiting some very obvious early signs of aging -- e.g., nasolabial folds, worsening eyelid retraction, a generally more "tired" look, etc. If I had actually gotten the surgery done when I originally wanted to 6+ years ago, I probably wouldn't have been a candidate for a midface lift back then. Now, I at least have the opportunity to have this procedure done concurrently with the implant surgery so that I can at least partially reverse some of these signs of aging.
Another reason I took so long to finally pull the trigger on getting the surgery is because I had a hard time settling on a surgeon for a year or two. For a while, I was leaning towards Eppley, but there's just something that seems so... off about many of his surgical outcomes. It's like he has the technical skill of a surgeon, but he lacks the aesthetic eye. On the other hand, Yaremchuk might have had a few somewhat unnatural-looking outcomes over the years, but overall, he seems to have a more tasteful aesthetic sensibility than Eppley.
Say what you want about my goals and motives to become a so-called "hookup guy" at bars and clubs, but there really IS such a thing as guys who are so good-looking that women all but offer themselves up to them in those kinds of social venues, especially when alcohol is involved. I'm not saying these surgeries are going to turn me into one of those guys (in fact, I'm pretty sure they won't, unless Dr. Y is some sort of miracle-worker). Simply visit a busy bar/club on a Friday or Saturday night and actively observe which kinds of guys tend to get the most unprovoked, low-/no-effort attention from girls.
BTW, I don't where all this talk about me wearing a cape is coming from. When it came to getting inspiration for the type of "look" I'd like to have, I simply selected photos of an actor who happened to play the character of Superman in a couple movies. Even if he hadn't been cast as Superman, I still would've considered him an aesthetic "ideal" to emulate.
BTW, Dr. Y didn't promise to make me look just like Henry Cavill or to increase my lay count. During the consultation appointment, he just said, "I can't make you look *just* like that guy, but we'll see how close we can get you." I just hope that he designed the implants with the imperative in mind to ensure that regardless of how close he gets to making me "look" like Henry Cavill, the outcome is still generally attractive according to most peoples' tastes.
OK, fair enough. Some of my statements were sarcastic.
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OK, fair enough. Some of my statements were sarcastic.
I figured. I guess for me, my main point of apprehension (or what you referred to as floundering) regarding these procedures is that there's a risk I'll end looking WORSE after the surgery. Like most of you guys said, I'm decent-looking now, so what if I spend all this money to end up looking legitimately bad?
For example, I would consider the procedure to be a failure if I came out looking like this guy (cheek implant patient of Dr. Niamtu's; before pic is on left, after is on right):
https://www.lovethatface.com/files/2017/05/Untitled-12.jpg
That's why I keep asking everyone, even if I don't come out of the surgery looking like Henry Cavill or an MM, will I at least get SOME improvement in the sense that I will be a generally more attractive male?
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I figured. I guess for me, my main point of apprehension (or what you referred to as floundering) regarding these procedures is that there's a risk I'll end looking WORSE after the surgery. Like most of you guys said, I'm decent-looking now, so what if I spend all this money to end up looking legitimately bad?
For example, I would consider the procedure to be a failure if I came out looking like this guy (cheek implant patient of Dr. Niamtu's; before pic is on left, after is on right):
https://www.lovethatface.com/files/2017/05/Untitled-12.jpg
That's why I keep asking everyone, even if I don't come out of the surgery looking like Henry Cavill or an MM, will I at least get SOME improvement in the sense that I will be a generally more attractive male?
That guy in the photo needs OUTplants.
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That guy in the photo needs OUTplants.
I agree; he looked more defined/angular in the "before" photo. I'm hoping that Dr. Y has enough aesthetic sense to know how to design cheek implants to look more sharp/defined/masculine. I'm assuming he does, since mine don't really look soft or rounded at all.
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I could see you benefiting from some Malar augmentation. But I share the sentiments of others on the jaw implants. I think it looks like overkill. That’s a big jaw implant! And you already have a good, strong jawline.
Let me know how this turns out! I just consulted with Dr. Y also for custom orbital, cheek, paranasal, and jaw implant. But I have more of a need of them, as I have midface hypoplasia and less jaw angularity. Happy to share my implant design when he makes them. I just sent him the CT scan.
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I figured. I guess for me, my main point of apprehension (or what you referred to as floundering) regarding these procedures is that there's a risk I'll end looking WORSE after the surgery. Like most of you guys said, I'm decent-looking now, so what if I spend all this money to end up looking legitimately bad?
For example, I would consider the procedure to be a failure if I came out looking like this guy (cheek implant patient of Dr. Niamtu's; before pic is on left, after is on right):
https://www.lovethatface.com/files/2017/05/Untitled-12.jpg
That's why I keep asking everyone, even if I don't come out of the surgery looking like Henry Cavill or an MM, will I at least get SOME improvement in the sense that I will be a generally more attractive male?
That result is definitely a failure, the after is both more feminine and unnatural looking.
My main concern is that, while silicone implants can be removed, they can cause damage to both soft tissue (scarring, skin stretching/sagging) and bone (erosion) over time. You're already hyper sensitive to minor defects so I'm afraid any side effects will cause you more psychological torment if/when implants are removed.
In your case I really think fixing your eye plus some minor horizontal chin augmentation would give you the best result while minimizing risk. And honestly the eye takes precedence above all else. It's not severe by any means, but it would make the biggest difference.
The thing is that noticeable abnormalities have a much greater (negative) impact than whatever positive effects you can obtain by 'optimizing' other parts of your face, assuming things work out. You are already GOOD LOOKING with GREAT structure and balance. The asymmetrical 'lazy' eye issue is your biggest (and IMO your only substantive) problem, and that's what should be addressed above all else.
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That result is definitely a failure, the after is both more feminine and unnatural looking.
My main concern is that, while silicone implants can be removed, they can cause damage to both soft tissue (scarring, skin stretching/sagging) and bone (erosion) over time. You're already hyper sensitive to minor defects so I'm afraid any side effects will cause you more psychological torment if/when implants are removed.
In your case I really think fixing your eye plus some minor horizontal chin augmentation would give you the best result while minimizing risk. And honestly the eye takes precedence above all else. It's not severe by any means, but it would make the biggest difference.
The thing is that noticeable abnormalities have a much greater (negative) impact than whatever positive effects you can obtain by 'optimizing' other parts of your face, assuming things work out. You are already GOOD LOOKING with GREAT structure and balance. The asymmetrical 'lazy' eye issue is your biggest (and IMO your only substantive) problem, and that's what should be addressed above all else.
I'm hoping that the combination of midface implants + midface lift will make my eyes look less buggy and asymmetrical. However, I noticed that on the implant designs, the orbital rim component for the right eye (which is the buggy/asymmetric one) actually projects less than the one for the left eye, so I hope this doesn't result in the asymmetry being preserved after surgery.
So do you actually think I would end up looking worse with the wraparound jaw implant? If so, what's the issue with it -- too much width? Would I be better off with jaw implants that only lower the jaw angles instead of add width?
BTW, what's your opinion on submental lipectomy? I'm thinking about throwing that in as well since I have a pretty noticeable double chin that I'd like to get rid of.
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I could see you benefiting from some Malar augmentation. But I share the sentiments of others on the jaw implants. I think it looks like overkill. That’s a big jaw implant! And you already have a good, strong jawline.
Let me know how this turns out! I just consulted with Dr. Y also for custom orbital, cheek, paranasal, and jaw implant. But I have more of a need of them, as I have midface hypoplasia and less jaw angularity. Happy to share my implant design when he makes them. I just sent him the CT scan.
Good luck with your surgery; please do post your implant designs when you have them.
For me, I think the main benefit to jaw implants would be to add length (but not really much width) so that my jaw angles would be a bit lower and not so steep.
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Here's a morph that someone made for me where they lowered the jaw angles and added more chin projection. I think they added WAY too much additional chin projection, but I do like the look of the lowered jaw angles. Even though having less steep jaw angles obviously looks good from the side, do you guys think that having lower jaw angles would actually look bad from the front?
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Here's a morph that someone made for me where they lowered the jaw angles and added more chin projection. I think they added WAY too much additional chin projection, but I do like the look of the lowered jaw angles. Even though having less steep jaw angles obviously looks good from the side, do you guys think that having lower jaw angles would actually look bad from the front?
The morph doesn't show. So, not the same one where you had the phone covering your chin and the morpher took your GOOD eye 'flipped' it and placed over your bad eye which made the whole face look good?
Other than that since you did ask for jaw like MM, it resolves to a request of WANTING a lot of drop down at the back and also a 'flip out' of the angles so they SHOW from the FRONT. Not even sure why you are asking this question given you asked for jaw angles that flair out from the front. I'll see if I can do a morph that takes into consideration the asymmetry you have to the eye area and also the augments for male model request. Might take some time though because I'm more 'scientific' and don't use automatic programs.
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Good luck with your surgery; please do post your implant designs when you have them.
For me, I think the main benefit to jaw implants would be to add length (but not really much width) so that my jaw angles would be a bit lower and not so steep.
Are you a dolt or what?
Plain as day on your implant design that in addition to having a 'drop down' (5mm on one side, 7mm on other) to add length, there is 9mm (8.5 other side) WIDTH increase from the front. 6 years and your still floundering on your decision when surgery is coming 'soon'? 6 years of wanting the jaw of MM Cavill and you still have not figured out WIDTH also factors in to the relationship seen on his face and not just length?
This is one of the reasons I don't think you're a good candidate for what you asked for. The MM jawline PARTS are RIGHT THERE, clear as day on your implant design and width INCREASE is significant for the angles to show and square from the front. Yet after he kicks up implants that accommodate the MM look where they give a LOT of extra WIDTH, you deem width is not really much of a factor as to benefit and WHY even ask people if lowered jaw angles would look good from the front? It just reflects you don't have the capacity to understand--even after 6 years-- that all along you've been asking for the type of jaw that drops down from the back and flares out a lot from the front.
Either go through with your decision and the plan that arose or take some time off and find some remedial tutor that teaches slow kids about simple geometric relationships.
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Are you a dolt or what?
Plain as day on your implant design that in addition to having a 'drop down' (5mm on one side, 7mm on other) to add length, there is 9mm (8.5 other side) WIDTH increase from the front. 6 years and your still floundering on your decision when surgery is coming 'soon'? 6 years of wanting the jaw of MM Cavill and you still have not figured out WIDTH also factors in to the relationship seen on his face and not just length?
This is one of the reasons I don't think you're a good candidate for what you asked for. The MM jawline PARTS are RIGHT THERE, clear as day on your implant design and width INCREASE is significant for the angles to show and square from the front. Yet after he kicks up implants that accommodate the MM look where they give a LOT of extra WIDTH, you deem width is not really much of a factor as to benefit and WHY even ask people if lowered jaw angles would look good from the front? It just reflects you don't have the capacity to understand--even after 6 years-- that all along you've been asking for the type of jaw that drops down from the back and flares out a lot from the front.
Either go through with your decision and the plan that arose or take some time off and find some remedial tutor that teaches slow kids about simple geometric relationships.
Woops, here is the morph photo (again, way too much chin projection but the lower jaw angle looks good):
https://i.imgur.com/dUZfMtP.jpg
And here is the deal: I want the result to look GOOD overall. I want to be an objectively better-looking male after the surgery, so the reason I'm apprehensive about the extremeness of the jaw implant design is because of how many people have told me that it would only serve to RUIN my looks. This was never about "forcing" any sort of look on my face. Yes, I realize that guys like Henry Cavill and male models have looks that are considered highly attractive, but if that exact same look (to the fullest extent of it) wouldn't actually make me better looking, then what's the point? Why not just stick with augmenting the chin and the cheeks and hopefully improving the eyes, since those traits could obviously use improvement?
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BTW, when I spoke to him a few weeks ago and told him about my reservations regarding the jaw implant, he said just doing custom cheek and chin implants would be an option on surgery day as well, so that's why I'm talking as if I'm still trying to decide.
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OK, I told you I would do a morph so I did that.
Your photos are all different because of the lighting. But the salient thing is that there are 2 different sides of your face (which is case for everyone) and although most people DO have some asymmetry to jaws and cheeks, most of yours is to the eyes. The eye that looks more prominent than the other one, also seems to sit LOWER on your face. The midface implants and lift (where I'm assuming more projection would be given on the side of the more prominent eye) would tend to make that eye look less prominent. So, some asymmetry to the eyes would tend to be made less, mitigated. But it wouldn't be just like that morph you got where the morpher took your good eye 'flipped' it and mirrored it on to the other side. The eye I call the 'bad' one would recede into the background more via the augment there. But it would still tend to sit lower. Another way of saying this would be that a straight horizont would not pass through both pupils as would be the case if that area were perfectly symmetrical.
The photo sets show mirror symmetry for each side of face on left and right of middle photo.
First set shows a line passing through on pupil (in middle photo) doesn't also pass through the pupil of the other eye. Mirror symmetry photos show you have a 'good' side and a 'bad' side. Everyone does to some extent.
The other photos with the black background were better for morphing because the lighting is more uniform (or less un-uniform) than the top photos. Since you already know, the 'bad eye' is more 'buggy' than the other one, I pointed out it was also lower than the other one and labeled 'bad side', 'good side'. I think anyone looking at what you would look like if you had perfect symmetry (but no cheek or jaw augmentation) would agree that the good side with mirror symmetry looks pretty good from the front. I don't think anyone would think the 'bad side' with mirror symmetry would look bad (nor do I). I'm just using black and white terms here.
What I did was take both halves of your face and morphed them separately. Using the implants as basic guidelines. Then I 'flipped' each side and 'mirrored' it to get the mirror morphs. Then I took a side from each of the mirror morphs and 'spliced' them together to get the middle one.
It's not a prediction of your outcome. But it does bring out the midface as is the intent of the implants there and it also drops and 'wing flairs' out the jaw angles as to give SOME idea about the basic AIM of the implants. It does blend in your eyes more even though the 'bad' eye is still lower.
So, what I wanted to do here is show SOMETHING in the venue of what those implants can GENERALLY do which should make it a little easier to see 'something' as to their aim. Again, not a 'prediction'. But enough for you to see if you would like something like that on your face. Although you don't look like Clavill in it, it is the general type of midface structure and jaw he has. Hope this helps.
Disclosure: I'm IRISH and we start early for St. Patrick's day. So, this should be my last serious post until a few days.
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OK, I told you I would do a morph so I did that.
Your photos are all different because of the lighting. But the salient thing is that there are 2 different sides of your face (which is case for everyone) and although most people DO have some asymmetry to jaws and cheeks, most of yours is to the eyes. The eye that looks more prominent than the other one, also seems to sit LOWER on your face. The midface implants and lift (where I'm assuming more projection would be given on the side of the more prominent eye) would tend to make that eye look less prominent. So, some asymmetry to the eyes would tend to be made less, mitigated. But it wouldn't be just like that morph you got where the morpher took your good eye 'flipped' it and mirrored it on to the other side. The eye I call the 'bad' one would recede into the background more via the augment there. But it would still tend to sit lower. Another way of saying this would be that a straight horizont would not pass through both pupils as would be the case if that area were perfectly symmetrical.
The photo sets show mirror symmetry for each side of face on left and right of middle photo.
First set shows a line passing through on pupil (in middle photo) doesn't also pass through the pupil of the other eye. Mirror symmetry photos show you have a 'good' side and a 'bad' side. Everyone does to some extent.
The other photos with the black background were better for morphing because the lighting is more uniform (or less un-uniform) than the top photos. Since you already know, the 'bad eye' is more 'buggy' than the other one, I pointed out it was also lower than the other one and labeled 'bad side', 'good side'. I think anyone looking at what you would look like if you had perfect symmetry (but no cheek or jaw augmentation) would agree that the good side with mirror symmetry looks pretty good from the front. I don't think anyone would think the 'bad side' with mirror symmetry would look bad (nor do I). I'm just using black and white terms here.
What I did was take both halves of your face and morphed them separately. Using the implants as basic guidelines. Then I 'flipped' each side and 'mirrored' it to get the mirror morphs. Then I took a side from each of the mirror morphs and 'spliced' them together to get the middle one.
It's not a prediction of your outcome. But it does bring out the midface as is the intent of the implants there and it also drops and 'wing flairs' out the jaw angles as to give SOME idea about the basic AIM of the implants. It does blend in your eyes more even though the 'bad' eye is still lower.
So, what I wanted to do here is show SOMETHING in the venue of what those implants can GENERALLY do which should make it a little easier to see 'something' as to their aim. Again, not a 'prediction'. But enough for you to see if you would like something like that on your face. Although you don't look like Clavill in it, it is the general type of midface structure and jaw he has. Hope this helps.
Disclosure: I'm IRISH and we start early for St. Patrick's day. So, this should be my last serious post until a few days.
Thanks for creating the morphs for me and for providing such a detailed analysis. To be honest, I'm not sure if I like the look of having such a strong jaw; it seems to make my head look blocky and... obtuse?... if that's the word for it. I can't quite put my finger on what I don't really like about it, but maybe it's the fact that in the original photos where I have the steeper jawline (I.e., my current face), I just look a bit more sophisticated or something.
If you had to estimate/guess, by how many mm would you say you lowered my jaw angles in the morph? It looks like it was by a lot more than 5-7 mm on each side, but it's hard to tell. I think I would definitely benefit by *some* degree of lowering of the jaw angles, but it would have to be done conservatively so that my head doesn't take on a blocky, square appearance. Of course, I'm not sure if Dr. Y's wraparound design would qualify as "conservative" or not.
Hope you enjoy St. Patrick's Day, BTW.
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Thanks for creating the morphs for me and for providing such a detailed analysis. To be honest, I'm not sure if I like the look of having such a strong jaw; it seems to make my head look blocky and... obtuse?... if that's the word for it. I can't quite put my finger on what I don't really like about it, but maybe it's the fact that in the original photos where I have the steeper jawline (I.e., my current face), I just look a bit more sophisticated or something.
If you had to estimate/guess, by how many mm would you say you lowered my jaw angles in the morph? It looks like it was by a lot more than 5-7 mm on each side, but it's hard to tell. I think I would definitely benefit by *some* degree of lowering of the jaw angles, but it would have to be done conservatively so that my head doesn't take on a blocky, square appearance. Of course, I'm not sure if Dr. Y's wraparound design would qualify as "conservative" or not.
Hope you enjoy St. Patrick's Day, BTW.
Well, a lot of the 'I want the MM has' requests for the jaw can end up looking blocky on guys who don't have all the other proportions the MM has. Most of what a MM has are those 'impossible' eyes as in possible to be born with but impossible for a doc to re-create.
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Well, a lot of the 'I want the MM has' requests for the jaw can end up looking blocky on guys who don't have all the other proportions the MM has. Most of what a MM has are those 'impossible' eyes as in possible to be born with but impossible for a doc to re-create.
I guess I'll just have to decide on the morning of surgery on whether I'd like to get the jaw implant or not. The funny thing is, when I decided to go with Dr. Y for the surgery a few months ago, I had actually decided to leave the jaw alone (due to the same concerns/considerations I've voiced here) and just do custom midface + chin implants. Then a few weeks ago, I did my skull CT scan and sent it to Dr. Y. When Dr. Y's staff got back to me a couple weeks later with the implant designs, I was surprised to see that he had designed a full wraparound jaw implant, even though I had (thus far) only paid the surgical fees for chin + midface implant/midface lift surgery. So I'm not sure if it was a communication error or if it was a last-minute attempt to "upsell" me on a full jaw implant, but either way, having a custom-designed wraparound jaw implant (sort of) right in front of me caused me to ask the question -- should I just go ahead with the full wraparound jaw implant after all, instead of just midface + chin implants?
So anyways, that's where I am now -- in the position of trying to decide whether or not to just go for the full wraparound implant or leave the jaw alone and stick with my original plan of just augmenting the cheeks and chin. I really like the idea of improving all my facial features that could possibly be improved in one single surgery and not worrying about wondering afterwards if I could/should have also improved "X" trait, but if any form of jaw augmentation would actually be a blow to my aesthetics, then I should probably just leave it alone. Then again, if it would be an overall aesthetic improvement, then I'd hate to leave a finished, custom-designed wraparound implant on the table (so to speak) and miss out on whatever aesthetic improvements I would derive from it.
I know it's basically asking you to take a shot in the dark, but in your opinion, will Dr. Y's jaw implant design result in my head looking as blocky as the morph you made? When you created the morph, were you trying to lower the jaw angles by the same dimensions (5 mm and 7 mm) that Dr. Y's implant design lowers them by?
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I guess I'll just have to decide on the morning of surgery on whether I'd like to get the jaw implant or not. The funny thing is, when I decided to go with Dr. Y for the surgery a few months ago, I had actually decided to leave the jaw alone (due to the same concerns/considerations I've voiced here) and just do custom midface + chin implants. Then a few weeks ago, I did my skull CT scan and sent it to Dr. Y. When Dr. Y's staff got back to me a couple weeks later with the implant designs, I was surprised to see that he had designed a full wraparound jaw implant, even though I had (thus far) only paid the surgical fees for chin + midface implant/midface lift surgery. So I'm not sure if it was a communication error or if it was a last-minute attempt to "upsell" me on a full jaw implant, but either way, having a custom-designed wraparound jaw implant (sort of) right in front of me caused me to ask the question -- should I just go ahead with the full wraparound jaw implant after all, instead of just midface + chin implants?
So anyways, that's where I am now -- in the position of trying to decide whether or not to just go for the full wraparound implant or leave the jaw alone and stick with my original plan of just augmenting the cheeks and chin. I really like the idea of improving all my facial features that could possibly be improved in one single surgery and not worrying about wondering afterwards if I could/should have also improved "X" trait, but if any form of jaw augmentation would actually be a blow to my aesthetics, then I should probably just leave it alone. Then again, if it would be an overall aesthetic improvement, then I'd hate to leave a finished, custom-designed wraparound implant on the table (so to speak) and miss out on whatever aesthetic improvements I would derive from it.
I know it's basically asking you to take a shot in the dark, but in your opinion, will Dr. Y's jaw implant design result in my head looking as blocky as the morph you made? When you created the morph, were you trying to lower the jaw angles by the same dimensions (5 mm and 7 mm) that Dr. Y's implant design lowers them by?
I was trying to give approximate drop plus width in BALL PARK. Also, I told you in one of my earlier posts that guys asking for the parts (usually jaw) a MM can be asking to look blocky but they don't realize it. Nobody looks like a MM unless they have those eyes that docs can't recreate.
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I was trying to give approximate drop plus width in BALL PARK. Also, I told you in one of my earlier posts that guys asking for the parts (usually jaw) a MM can be asking to look blocky but they don't realize it. Nobody looks like a MM unless they have those eyes that docs can't recreate.
@Kagan I was just trying to do some basic measurements a few minutes ago based on eyeballing the changes you made in the morph, and it looks like my jaw angles were each probably dropped by about an inch (or maybe a little less)? Would you say this is roughly correct? The reason I ask is because it looks like they were lowered by way more than 5 mm and 7 mm each, but I could be wrong. Just curious...
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you go for the wrap around and then you're not satisfied and take it out, it can cause all kind of problems. Chin ptosis, disrupted masseters, scar tissue, etc. Especially if you're not in your 20s anymore. So be carefull with it. Also, a morph is almost never the same as the result after real surgery. Like I said, scar tissue will be built around a silicone implant, there is a part underneath the upper part of the masseter, it can make it look bloated. This is a good example of the difference between the morph and real result:
https://www.realself.com/question/long-swelling-completely-after-jaw-implants
You see the jaw angle is less angular than the before and his face is more boxy, although there is still some swelling.
His morph was ideal, but you probably can't get the morph through implants. Weather it's because of the design or material, maybe it was too big, I don't know. Maybe only with fillers, cause fillers target only the jawangle, while implants need to go higher than the jawangle to be able to fix them (but that part risks pushing the masseter outwards, making the face seem bloated).
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@Kagan I was just trying to do some basic measurements a few minutes ago based on eyeballing the changes you made in the morph, and it looks like my jaw angles were each probably dropped by about an inch (or maybe a little less)? Would you say this is roughly correct? The reason I ask is because it looks like they were lowered by way more than 5 mm and 7 mm each, but I could be wrong. Just curious...
I'm sorry but this is getting incredibly tedious because it takes a LOT of TIME for me to
do this stuff. It's even more tedious to explain. I shall try.
When I did your morph, I viewed the implants (from the front) and noted that the base of chin was not dropped vertically. So, I kept that constant. I eyeballed the angle DECREASE to be approx 8-10 deg. decrease. So, on the morph, I eyeballed approx an 8-10 angle decrease.
Now the tedious part was CHECKING that for you via hand held protractor against screen.
I took your before photo and lined it up with the after morph. I measured the degrees from start which was about 45 and degrees from end (on morph) which was about 37 and I got a 8 degree DECREASE.
I then checked the implant diagram and reversed it so the side of the 'good eye' where there was less midface projection was on same side as morph with 'good eye'.
I measured the start angle which was about 34 deg. I measured the end angle which was about 26 deg. The DECREASE was 8 deg.
Low and behold, I find the angle decrease measured on the implant diagram is SAME as that on the morph. 8 degree angle decrease in mandibular border as seen from the FRONT.
That's the best angle approximation I can do with a 'selfie' photo when comparing it to the implant diagram. I look at approximate angle DECREASE from the FRONT and give the morph the same/similar angle decrease from the FRONT.
There are NO 'inches' here. There is NO way to predict 'exactly' what you would look like. But my approximation of about an 8-10 degree angle DECREASE where your morph has an 8 deg angle decrease is consistent with the angle decrease seen on the implant diagram.
That was the METHODOLOGY I used to do the morph APPROXIMATION.
You will NOTE that the VSP (program) used for the implant design isn't even one where it SHOWS YOU a prediction of your (soft tissue) FACE from the front. So, my approximation isn't bad.
Again, the angle DECREASE along the mandibular border as shown on the implant diagram is about 8 degrees. The morph (and mind you after I took extra time to MEASURE my 'eyeball' angle decrease) was ALSO an 8 degree angle decrease along the mandibular border you see from the FRONT.
That's pretty much the LIMIT of what I can do here for you when using a selfie.
I realize that other people can morph you as to provide something that looks good to their EYE and look better to you than this morph. That's fine BUT I'm NOT doing that. So the morph is not MY aesthetic preference for your face. I'm NOT designing your face. What I'm doing (here as to the jaw) is using a METHODOLOGY where I gave the morph the same/similar ANGLE DECREASE from the FRONT that I observed on the implant diagram.
That's the methodology I used. It is SUFFICIENT to illustrate SOMETHING in the VENUE of what MMs have and I've already TOLD you that requests based on wanting a PART that a MM has do NOT necessarily result in the WHOLE 'gestalt' of what the MM has.
What you need is CERTAINTY, an exact prediction of how the jaw implant will look on your face when YOU look in the mirror..or here an exact prediction of what this 'selfie' would look like where the prediction would have to be 'exactly' to YOUR liking. No such certainty can be achieved here and IF it could, the VSP program used by Y would be able to SHOW you the prediction. Not just the implants but HOW your face would look (from the FRONT).
That said, in the absence of the CERTAINTY you need to make a decision where this approximation and methodology used to do the morph does not kick up what's in your MINDS EYE as to what you might like to see INSTEAD, then you would need to RESOLVE the UNCERTAINTY as INDECISION and make a DECISION NOT TO decide to go through with the whole jaw augmentation and that also includes the CHIN that was designed with the REST of the JAW in mind.
If Dr. Y doesn't mind the indecision and FLOUNDERING on a decision, FINE. But if you need a morph where you want a different methodology used to show you what you might want to see on your face, then have HIM do it.
If you've already asked him to SHOW you a prediction of what the implants will look like ON YOUR FACE/photo (because that's what you need to see in order to decide) and he told you; 'Oh, that's just moving around pixels', that would mean what I told you which is that type of CERTAINTY can't be predicted.
All that said, enclosed is the original morph where I used the implants for jaw as basic guide and one with absolutely no consideration or reference to the implant diagram or request to look like Cavill. Instead only what MY eye would like to see.
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That result is definitely a failure, the after is both more feminine and unnatural looking.
My main concern is that, while silicone implants can be removed, they can cause damage to both soft tissue (scarring, skin stretching/sagging) and bone (erosion) over time. You're already hyper sensitive to minor defects so I'm afraid any side effects will cause you more psychological torment if/when implants are removed.
In your case I really think fixing your eye plus some minor horizontal chin augmentation would give you the best result while minimizing risk. And honestly the eye takes precedence above all else. It's not severe by any means, but it would make the biggest difference.
The thing is that noticeable abnormalities have a much greater (negative) impact than whatever positive effects you can obtain by 'optimizing' other parts of your face, assuming things work out. You are already GOOD LOOKING with GREAT structure and balance. The asymmetrical 'lazy' eye issue is your biggest (and IMO your only substantive) problem, and that's what should be addressed above all else.
That's because his jaw and chin now look too small compared to the cheekbone. Facial harmony. The result of his cheeks implant are perfect imo, but his jaw and chin look too small compared to the cheekbone after the procedure. That's the problem with facial plastic surgery. Facial harmony is easily disrupted. Same with jawimplants. Someone takes jawimplants, lowering the jawangle, but how is it going to look compared to the chin? Too boxy because chin length stays the same? That happens alot of times. And then the client is dissatisfied and wants to take them out, or he does a revision. The revision rate is approximately 40-50 percent. It's an extremely difficult procedure to get it right.
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Oh God bro I haven’t read through all the comments yet and I’m looking forward to it, but you need to understand that implants are specifically for people with underdeveloped facial bone structure, which you do not have in the slightest.
The people who get the best results from implants are those with weak facial bone structure but good soft tissue features.
The reverse is equally true... the people who benefit the most from doing things like getting jacked, cutting to low body fat levels, getting a good haircut maybe with a well maintained beard, getting a sense of style, working on your personality, getting healthier skin, and perhaps finally some surgery for soft tissue defects, e.g rhinoplasty, fillers, or even eyes (this would be the MOST I’d do in your case), are those with well developed bone structure, which you have.
You are going about this the wrong way. I don’t see how facial implants are going to improve your chances with women. You need to do the things above ^.
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@Kagan I was just trying to do some basic measurements a few minutes ago based on eyeballing the changes you made in the morph, and it looks like my jaw angles were each probably dropped by about an inch (or maybe a little less)? Would you say this is roughly correct? The reason I ask is because it looks like they were lowered by way more than 5 mm and 7 mm each, but I could be wrong. Just curious...
I just gave a very long (winded) post with diagram explanation of what I did in the morph. Also gave an illustration of what I, myself, would have done in total absence of any reference to any implant designs or consideration of Cavill.
In short, I looked at the angle DECREASE of the mandibular border as could be seen on the FRONT of the implant diagram. FRONT view. It was about an 8 degree angle decrease. This decrease was in reference to the fact that your CHIN, in the implant specs remained vertically 'long' for your already somewhat HIGH jaw angles. It (chin) stayed approx same vertical length.
So, using the vertical length of the chin as a CONSTANT in the morph where it was basically a constant in the FRONT view of the implant specs, I looked at the angle DECREASE of the mandibular border which could be viewed on the FRONT implant diagram. The angle DECREASE to the mandibular border is about the SAME on your morph.
My method was to give same/similar angle decrease at mandibular border on the morph (front) as I saw on the (front) implant diagram as to lower the 'slope' of your jaw line by similar angle the 'slope' was lowered in the implant design with FRONT used to look at that.
When your jaw angles are somewhat on the high side and look HIGHER due to the vertical length of the chin, keeping the vertical length of the chin results in having to do more of a drop to the mandibular border to 'blend' with the long chin which is why the morph looks 'boxy'.
My own preference--but that's just me with no consideration of Calvill-- would be to vertically SHORTEN the chin with goal of giving LESS of a drop to the back angles.
As to 'boxy' MM's have boxy jaws. But more of a 'square' box than 'rectangle' box.
You got 'rectangle' boxy due to long chin.
By the way, the morph the other person did where you liked the MODEST drop to the jaw line was in reference to your selfie PHONE CUTTING OFF the base of your long chin. (The one where he also took your good eye 'flipped it' and pasted it on to your bad eye.) So, of course, something where the chin is actually vertically shortened (because it's covered by your phone) will look better. I didn't cut off your chin in my morph approximations relative to the implants because it was NOT vertically shortened in your implant diagrams. I just gave you the same/similar angle decrease of the mandibular border that I saw on the implant diagrams when viewed from the front.
That's the methodology I used.
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you go for the wrap around and then you're not satisfied and take it out, it can cause all kind of problems. Chin ptosis, disrupted masseters, scar tissue, etc. Especially if you're not in your 20s anymore. So be carefull with it. Also, a morph is almost never the same as the result after real surgery. Like I said, scar tissue will be built around a silicone implant, there is a part underneath the upper part of the masseter, it can make it look bloated. This is a good example of the difference between the morph and real result:
https://www.realself.com/question/long-swelling-completely-after-jaw-implants
You see the jaw angle is less angular than the before and his face is more boxy, although there is still some swelling.
His morph was ideal, but you probably can't get the morph through implants. Weather it's because of the design or material, maybe it was too big, I don't know. Maybe only with fillers, cause fillers target only the jawangle, while implants need to go higher than the jawangle to be able to fix them (but that part risks pushing the masseter outwards, making the face seem bloated).
As one of the docs pointed out, those were posted about a month post-op.
But still, oof.
That's a perfect example of a guy who had great features and may have f**ked up his face with implants.
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As one of the docs pointed out, those were posted about a month post-op.
But still, oof.
That's a perfect example of a guy who had great features and may have f**ked up his face with implants.
Still, I can see why he wanted the morph. It's strange that surgeons don't seem to be able to deliver a subtle change like that. Is it a lack of aestethic eye? Implants too big? Wrong material?
But okay, 1 month is still early in the swelling process. Should wait appr. 6-8 weeks.
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I'm sorry but this is getting incredibly tedious because it takes a LOT of TIME for me to
do this stuff. It's even more tedious to explain. I shall try.
When I did your morph, I viewed the implants (from the front) and noted that the base of chin was not dropped vertically. So, I kept that constant. I eyeballed the angle DECREASE to be approx 8-10 deg. decrease. So, on the morph, I eyeballed approx an 8-10 angle decrease.
Now the tedious part was CHECKING that for you via hand held protractor against screen.
I took your before photo and lined it up with the after morph. I measured the degrees from start which was about 45 and degrees from end (on morph) which was about 37 and I got a 8 degree DECREASE.
I then checked the implant diagram and reversed it so the side of the 'good eye' where there was less midface projection was on same side as morph with 'good eye'.
I measured the start angle which was about 34 deg. I measured the end angle which was about 26 deg. The DECREASE was 8 deg.
Low and behold, I find the angle decrease measured on the implant diagram is SAME as that on the morph. 8 degree angle decrease in mandibular border as seen from the FRONT.
That's the best angle approximation I can do with a 'selfie' photo when comparing it to the implant diagram. I look at approximate angle DECREASE from the FRONT and give the morph the same/similar angle decrease from the FRONT.
There are NO 'inches' here. There is NO way to predict 'exactly' what you would look like. But my approximation of about an 8-10 degree angle DECREASE where your morph has an 8 deg angle decrease is consistent with the angle decrease seen on the implant diagram.
That was the METHODOLOGY I used to do the morph APPROXIMATION.
You will NOTE that the VSP (program) used for the implant design isn't even one where it SHOWS YOU a prediction of your (soft tissue) FACE from the front. So, my approximation isn't bad.
Again, the angle DECREASE along the mandibular border as shown on the implant diagram is about 8 degrees. The morph (and mind you after I took extra time to MEASURE my 'eyeball' angle decrease) was ALSO an 8 degree angle decrease along the mandibular border you see from the FRONT.
That's pretty much the LIMIT of what I can do here for you when using a selfie.
I realize that other people can morph you as to provide something that looks good to their EYE and look better to you than this morph. That's fine BUT I'm NOT doing that. So the morph is not MY aesthetic preference for your face. I'm NOT designing your face. What I'm doing (here as to the jaw) is using a METHODOLOGY where I gave the morph the same/similar ANGLE DECREASE from the FRONT that I observed on the implant diagram.
That's the methodology I used. It is SUFFICIENT to illustrate SOMETHING in the VENUE of what MMs have and I've already TOLD you that requests based on wanting a PART that a MM has do NOT necessarily result in the WHOLE 'gestalt' of what the MM has.
What you need is CERTAINTY, an exact prediction of how the jaw implant will look on your face when YOU look in the mirror..or here an exact prediction of what this 'selfie' would look like where the prediction would have to be 'exactly' to YOUR liking. No such certainty can be achieved here and IF it could, the VSP program used by Y would be able to SHOW you the prediction. Not just the implants but HOW your face would look (from the FRONT).
That said, in the absence of the CERTAINTY you need to make a decision where this approximation and methodology used to do the morph does not kick up what's in your MINDS EYE as to what you might like to see INSTEAD, then you would need to RESOLVE the UNCERTAINTY as INDECISION and make a DECISION NOT TO decide to go through with the whole jaw augmentation and that also includes the CHIN that was designed with the REST of the JAW in mind.
If Dr. Y doesn't mind the indecision and FLOUNDERING on a decision, FINE. But if you need a morph where you want a different methodology used to show you what you might want to see on your face, then have HIM do it.
If you've already asked him to SHOW you a prediction of what the implants will look like ON YOUR FACE/photo (because that's what you need to see in order to decide) and he told you; 'Oh, that's just moving around pixels', that would mean what I told you which is that type of CERTAINTY can't be predicted.
All that said, enclosed is the original morph where I used the implants for jaw as basic guide and one with absolutely no consideration or reference to the implant diagram or request to look like Cavill. Instead only what MY eye would like to see.
Thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff to me. After reading your analysis and thinking more about it, I think I'm going to forego the jaw implant for now and just stick with the midface and chin implants (when I originally told him a few weeks ago that I didn't want the jaw implant, he said he would go back and redesign the chin on it's own-- which hasn't been sent to me yet). I'm assuming they've just forgotten to send me the standalone chin implant design since the surgery is scheduled for next week.
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Thanks for taking the time to explain this stuff to me. After reading your analysis and thinking more about it, I think I'm going to forego the jaw implant for now and just stick with the midface and chin implants (when I originally told him a few weeks ago that I didn't want the jaw implant, he said he would go back and redesign the chin on it's own-- which hasn't been sent to me yet). I'm assuming they've just forgotten to send me the standalone chin implant design since the surgery is scheduled for next week.
Then you have not understood all correctly. A chin implant will not SHORTEN your chin in the vertical dimension. Chin + jaw should be done TOGETHER for the for the entire 'blend'. Just as dumb to do one (chin) and not part to go with it (rest of jaw) as it is to request to have what the MM has.
Last try and then you are on your own:
Your jaw angles have GOOD angularity from front BUT they are HIGH and HIGHER than what MMs have. MMs have it that a horizont passing to 'cut' through the jaw angles is found below the lower lip. To be given 'close' to what the MM has, a line found below the lower lip would also have to 'cut' through the jaw angles and does so in the morph. Although I agree that doesn't look 'right' on you, that's one of the draw backs of requesting to have 'what the MM has'. Here you DON'T start with what the MM has. The chin casts too LONG. IF you did NOT request to have Cavill as a point of reference and INSTEAD just got your chin SHORTENED and your jaw angles dropped MODESTLY where a line 'cutting' through them was not as LOW as it's found on the MM, than THAT would have been working WITH what you already have; a long chin and high jaw angles.
Sorry, but I just think it's dumb to ask a doctor to give 'what a model has'. Recall, one of my PRIOR posts where I said asking to have a PART like a model has is like asking to look like a block head but without knowing that's what you're asking for. They can give you 'something' like what a MM has. But it's never the same 'GESTALT' of all the parts working TOGETHER like a MM has.
The smart thing to do is observe aesthetic improvement for YOU (here the jaw area) and seek correction and with NO reference to a specific MM. NONE. Your aesthetic problem has NOTHING TO DO with 'not looking like a MM'. The aesthetic SOLUTION for YOU would be to have the chin shortened (and advanced for the profile view) and also to have the jaw angles 'dropped down MODESTLY but NOT as much as a MM.
You would look better IF you just let the surgeon address your PROBLEM areas and DROP the request to be close to Cavill. I'm sure Y could see your chin could be shortened (and advanced) and your jaw angles dropped modestly. But both should be done in SAME surgery for the total 'blend'.
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I don't think there is some kind of MM face formula. I have not followed the whole thread, so I am not sure what you showed Y, but doctors hate it when patients bring them photos of celebrities - "such people are never happy". Morphs are OK, other peoples photos are not.
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IF you did NOT request to have Cavill as a point of reference and INSTEAD just got your chin SHORTENED and your jaw angles dropped MODESTLY where a line 'cutting' through them was not as LOW as it's found on the MM, than THAT would have been working WITH what you already have; a long chin and high jaw angles.
I think that's solid advice, a chin advancement and vertical reduction with a sliding genio could achieve that I guess. I wouldn't do much about the jaw angle, I think his jaw looks good as a whole.
I'd never put one of these wrap around implants, btw, but I'm against implants in general.
Another thing, I don't know anything about eyes but could orbital decompression help him? One of his eyes looks like it's going to jump out of the socket.
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He's telling you your expectations are unrealistic and reasons for wanting PS are absurd in the first place.
f**k you have severe bdd.
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I think that's solid advice, a chin advancement and vertical reduction with a sliding genio could achieve that I guess. I wouldn't do much about the jaw angle, I think his jaw looks good as a whole.
I'd never put one of these wrap around implants, btw, but I'm against implants in general.
Another thing, I don't know anything about eyes but could orbital decompression help him? One of his eyes looks like it's going to jump out of the socket.
It was offered to him by an 'eye guy' and he was told repeatedly that he had one 'bad eye' that was key culprit to his overall appearance. But he elected to mask it with the implants. Not to mention that targeting the very thing that threw of his appearance could not compete with pursuing his fantasy of looking like Superman.
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f**k you have severe bdd.
Does that stand for Brain Dysmorphic Disorder? It should.
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Can't see all the pics as some have been taken down. From what I can see, looks like an eye guy would be the person to see. Some sort of decompression, cantho is the way to go. Your ipd, palpebral fissure width and inner canthi look good from what I can so you have a good base to work from. Need a good photo to judge
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I know this is an old one but had to comment. I shake my head at some of these threads. I really hope you didn't get surgery.
As far as eyes, man, they are not even asymmetrical and you should NOT touch them. I have MAJOR orbital asymmetry where one eye is literally placed higher than the other and have thought long and hard to fix but the risks are just too great (blindness, double vision, need to do even more surgery on the eyelids). There is literally one guy who pitches cosmetic orbital decompression named Taban, who I've seen, and he has quite the number of pissed patients from specifically this procedure. I wish there was a low risk option to fix....