What are the root causes of unwanted vertical growth of the face?

[pekay]

Will a surgeon be able to go indepth with me about all of this? im really anxious about it. I would absolutely hate to have had vertical growth that was not supposed to happen. Its maddening even thinking about it.

doubtful, these guys have an agenda (money), why try to scare away a potential patient?

a "case folder" (not sure what it's called in the US) basically lists all the standard s**t. I would be surprised if anyone's report has in-depth details about mid-face development

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

doubtful, these guys have an agenda (money), why try to scare away a potential patient?

a "case folder" (not sure what it's called in the US) basically lists all the standard s**t. I would be surprised if anyone's report has in-depth details about mid-face development

Not sure if you can read cephs but if you can judging by the ceph of my skull on the previous page would you say I have had the same outcome as you? (cheekbones basically ossified ontop of the maxilla)

[pekay]

Not sure if you can read cephs but if you can judging by the ceph of my skull on the previous page would you say I have had the same outcome as you? (cheekbones basically ossified ontop of the maxilla)

dunno, cone beam scan would be ideal for this

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

So I have no way of knowing if i've been f*ked over by tooth extractions and I dont know if I will further be f*ked over by functional orthodontics..


Great 

[Sharptoys]

So I have no way of knowing if i've been f*ked over by tooth extractions and I dont know if I will further be f*ked over by functional orthodontics..


Great 

I'm no sure why your'e worried about excess vertical growth. Your ramus and mandibular body do not seem short, and your mandibular and occlusal planes are low, all of which contributes to a normal to short facial height.

[Lazlo]

I'm no sure why your'e worried about excess vertical growth. Your ramus and mandibular body do not seem short, and your mandibular and occlusal planes are low, all of which contributes to a normal to short facial height.

yeah i sort of have to agree with this, your x-ray seems to show a really good bite and soft tissue projection/balance, esp. your lips etc.... I'm uncertain your appearance problems are related to jaw etc. issues.

[CK]

So I have no way of knowing if i've been f*ked over by tooth extractions and I dont know if I will further be f*ked over by functional orthodontics..


Great 

i think you are overrating the effects extractions have on facial growth. i havent heard of a case where extractions have undermined with midface growth or cheekbone development. plus you had them right around when the bones are close to getting hard and are less influenced by the environment.

extractions cannot influence the shape or posture of the nose, or hallowness of the under-eye area.

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

I'm no sure why your'e worried about excess vertical growth. Your ramus and mandibular body do not seem short, and your mandibular and occlusal planes are low, all of which contributes to a normal to short facial height.

My profile seems relatively acceptable but if you look closely on my maxilla theres a small gap (was never able to be closed, I had too much room for 2 teeth being taken out, theres also one on the other side of my maxilla) and due to my teeth grinding from an asymmetrical bite I will eventually grind my teeth down so much my lower canine will fit in that gap from grinding.

Yes from profile my bite seems to be within the acceptable range but it is indeed retruded due to the lack of projection from the maxilla and angle of the teeth.. From the front I have alot of soft tissue just laying around my nose-mouth area and it looks pretty nasty when I talk.

As for the dark circles under the eyes im convinced its from lack of support around the eyes (weak orbitals) from down and back growth from the extractions.

The reason I think my nose is also part of it was because it was centred before puberty, no asymmetry. After puberty I have scoliosis, maxilla and mandible asymmetry that ALL deviate in the same direction as my nose. How can that be a coincidence? how did my nose, both jaws and spine deviate in the same direction? I dont believe that can be by chance. A squint nose by itself? sure, genetics. Midline of my teeth off by a few mm? ok fair enough my dad gave me his squint smile. Everything combined? I dont believe it, not for a second. Especially considering I had a crossbite on only ONE side of my mouth when I was younger.

I have been diagnosed with BDD yes but everyone here can agree that my maxilla lacks projection. Everyone here can see my extraction gaps and everyone here can confirm that extractions make you lose facial dimension.

Im focused on fixing myself back to what I originally was, no dished in midface, no recessed jaw or narrow smile. No teeth grinding. No back pain. No posture issues. No gum recession. I do not want things to happen to my face and body that arent natural.

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

i think you are overrating the effects extractions have on facial growth. i havent heard of a case where extractions have undermined with midface growth or cheekbone development. plus you had them right around when the bones are close to getting hard and are less influenced by the environment.

extractions cannot influence the shape or posture of the nose, or hallowness of the under-eye area.

From what Pekay said it sounds like it can completely change the projection of several bones. Lowering cheekbones right next to the maxilla? Zygomatic arch bending from change in growth pattern? that sounds horrific. How is that not seriously affecting development?

[CK]

From what Pekay said it sounds like it can completely change the projection of several bones. Lowering cheekbones right next to the maxilla? Zygomatic arch bending from change in growth pattern? that sounds horrific. How is that not seriously affecting development?

this is all speculation. maybe extractions are correlated with growth problems but i doubt it would lead to such comprehensive problems, especially when you had them near the end of your most important growth cycle.

if we had a picture we could make a more accurate judgement.

[CK]

Im focused on fixing myself back to what I originally was, no dished in midface, no recessed jaw or narrow smile. No teeth grinding. No back pain. No posture issues. No gum recession. I do not want things to happen to my face and body that arent natural.

no jaw surgery is going to affect body posture at all. dished midface, im not sure what that is exactly.

since you are done growing, it will be impossible to know what you originally should be. jaw-wise it might be hard to tell how far you deviated from a natural, healthy status. you might always be unsatisfied in this regard.

[Lazlo]

My profile seems relatively acceptable but if you look closely on my maxilla theres a small gap (was never able to be closed, I had too much room for 2 teeth being taken out, theres also one on the other side of my maxilla) and due to my teeth grinding from an asymmetrical bite I will eventually grind my teeth down so much my lower canine will fit in that gap from grinding.

Yes from profile my bite seems to be within the acceptable range but it is indeed retruded due to the lack of projection from the maxilla and angle of the teeth.. From the front I have alot of soft tissue just laying around my nose-mouth area and it looks pretty nasty when I talk.

As for the dark circles under the eyes im convinced its from lack of support around the eyes (weak orbitals) from down and back growth from the extractions.

The reason I think my nose is also part of it was because it was centred before puberty, no asymmetry. After puberty I have scoliosis, maxilla and mandible asymmetry that ALL deviate in the same direction as my nose. How can that be a coincidence? how did my nose, both jaws and spine deviate in the same direction? I dont believe that can be by chance. A squint nose by itself? sure, genetics. Midline of my teeth off by a few mm? ok fair enough my dad gave me his squint smile. Everything combined? I dont believe it, not for a second. Especially considering I had a crossbite on only ONE side of my mouth when I was younger.

I have been diagnosed with BDD yes but everyone here can agree that my maxilla lacks projection. Everyone here can see my extraction gaps and everyone here can confirm that extractions make you lose facial dimension.

Im focused on fixing myself back to what I originally was, no dished in midface, no recessed jaw or narrow smile. No teeth grinding. No back pain. No posture issues. No gum recession. I do not want things to happen to my face and body that arent natural.

No I can appreciate that my friend. The grinding is especially worrisome. Listen you absolutely must consult with a few surgeons and jaw specialists.

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

no jaw surgery is going to affect body posture at all. dished midface, im not sure what that is exactly.

since you are done growing, it will be impossible to know what you originally should be. jaw-wise it might be hard to tell how far you deviated from a natural, healthy status. you might always be unsatisfied in this regard.

Well ofcourse thats what one would think. I dont think there has been many studies done on it but if you think about it the positioning of the lower face will have an effect on the neck which leads to the spine. Many people with very retruded lower have compromised airways which leads to forward head posture to correct the airway size. This leads to rounded shoulders, slumped back and poor hips. See the pattern? (words of my dentist not me, sorry again if I sound ignorant to your opinion)

Sorry dished in midface is my way of saying recessed midface. I believe my maxilla, orbitals and cheekbones are all recessed.

Obviously everyones lower third will project differently since people have different nasions/foreheads/noses but surely from the ceph people can estimate how far I am from the norm? I dont think its too far personally. Its enough to have an effect on my soft tissue and make me have bad posture.

No I can appreciate that my friend. The grinding is especially worrisome. Listen you absolutely must consult with a few surgeons and jaw specialists.

The A.L.F appliance that I am using to correct my issues at the moment will apparently fix any functional issues I have. I just want to be returned to what I was pre extractions. I think I'll consult with a surgeon as soon as possible.

By the way what do people mean when they say my mandibular and occlusal planes are low? is this good?

[CK]

Well ofcourse thats what one would think. I dont think there has been many studies done on it but if you think about it the positioning of the lower face will have an effect on the neck which leads to the spine. Many people with very retruded lower have compromised airways which leads to forward head posture to correct the airway size. This leads to rounded shoulders, slumped back and poor hips. See the pattern? (words of my dentist not me, sorry again if I sound ignorant to your opinion)

Sorry dished in midface is my way of saying recessed midface. I believe my maxilla, orbitals and cheekbones are all recessed.

Obviously everyones lower third will project differently since people have different nasions/foreheads/noses but surely from the ceph people can estimate how far I am from the norm? I dont think its too far personally. Its enough to have an effect on my soft tissue and make me have bad posture.

The A.L.F appliance that I am using to correct my issues at the moment will apparently fix any functional issues I have. I just want to be returned to what I was pre extractions. I think I'll consult with a surgeon as soon as possible.

positioning of the lower face? your neck and body posture is independent of your facial development. jaw surgery isnt going to do squat for your neck posture, that needs to be dealt with separately - strength training, better habits, etc. and that might not even work depending on how severe your posture is.

relationship between compromised airways and forward head posture is weak imo, maybe there is a correlation but definitely not a direct cause. in any case, improving your jaw isnt going to do anything for your hips, knees, whatever. that is separate now even if there is some evidence linking that....to your extractions.

more likely, you probably slouched, look down at the floor due to low confidence growing up OR spending too much time sitting around on the computer. or both. more likely than extractions bro.

[ExtractionsRuinFaces]

positioning of the lower face? your neck and body posture is independent of your facial development. jaw surgery isnt going to do squat for your neck posture, that needs to be dealt with separately - strength training, better habits, etc. and that might not even work depending on how severe your posture is.

relationship between compromised airways and forward head posture is weak imo, maybe there is a correlation but definitely not a direct cause. in any case, improving your jaw isnt going to do anything for your hips, knees, whatever. that is separate now even if there is some evidence linking that....to your extractions.

more likely, you probably slouched, look down at the floor due to low confidence growing up OR spending too much time sitting around on the computer. or both. more likely than extractions bro.

I've tried time and time again to maintain good posture. I simply cannot. After a few minutes I'll forget and return to slouching.

Idk what to do. I have my ortho saying things will improve (bite, health, dimensions of the face) then people here are saying returning my bite to what it was before will compromise gum health and potentially make me look worse. I've already forked out a large sum of money (?4,500 to be precise) to attempt to fix this mess. Now im not sure if I should stop the treatment and get surgery. urgh I wish It was simple and I never had extractions. God damnit.