jawsurgeryforums.com
General Category => Functional Surgery Questions => Topic started by: Charles-Guillaume on June 20, 2015, 02:01:13 AM
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Unfortunately I don't have any great pics available, only this one taken from a slightly awkward angle:
(http://i.imgur.com/rBTGMVd.jpg)
I do know that my eyes are overly close-set (1st to 35th percentile depending on the study), but I am not sure if they actually qualify for medical hypotelorism (though, if the 1st--or sub-fifth more generally--percentile thing is correct they certainly should) and I am interested in pursuing craniofacial surgery for it. However, I am going to put this aspiration of mine on ice until I have consulted with several experts.
Does it seem to you that my orbital rims are underdeveloped? The way I see it, my infraorbital area looks somehow puffy and "loose". Would I benefit from a modified LeFort III? For the record, I just had a LeFort I + BSSO three weeks ago and I am already eating pizza and exercising, so it would seem that my body is fairly good at recuperation (judging by this one instance, anyhow). I am content with the results (though I am still somewhat swollen, of course), but I don't think that the adiposity of my eye area has changed much if at all. I don't have scleral show, but another concern of mine is a certain eyelid asymmetry. It isn't obvious from this image (I will add another one when I can), but the "hood" over my right eyelid is droopier than that of my left, largely concealing the upper eyelid. Is this something that could (and ought to) be surgicially corrected?
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They look fine here. More pictures.
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They look fine here. More pictures.
Hopefully I can take a few later today provided that I can manage to borrow a camera. So you don't think that my eyes look overly close-set? Perhaps it would be more obvious if you could see the entirety of my nose.
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It isn't obvious from this image (I will add another one when I can), but the "hood" over my right eyelid is droopier than that of my left, largely concealing the upper eyelid. Is this something that could (and ought to) be surgicially corrected?
This is desirable.
Your orbital rims look okay to me.
The eyes are definitely close-set. Good luck if you try to get it rectified, but it's a serious procedure; certainly not something to be undertaken lightly.
(http://i.imgur.com/Yjkej1F.gif)
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This is desirable.
That is interesting, I wouldn't have thought so.
Your orbital rims look okay to me.
The eyes are definitely close-set. Good luck if you try to get it rectified, but it's a serious procedure; certainly not something to be undertaken lightly.
By "okay" do you mean that you don't think that I would benefit at all from advancing them or that you consider my issue comparatively negligible?
As for the eyeset I figured as much. The distance between my pupils appears to be 58-60 mm (no matter how many times I measure this margin of error cannot be circumvented), which is, I have gathered, a pretty damn small range for a man. I know that box osteotomies or whatever they call them are very invasive, but is it significantly worse than a LeFort III? Most of the cases that I can find on the internet are very severe, requiring inward/outward movement of several centimetres. I suspect that even a centimeter of additional distance between the eyes could make me look freaky in the other direction instead, so I would opt for 4-6 mm or something like that.
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The ratio of your IPD to the distance between your glabella and your mouth is more important than the IPD value alone. IOW, the 60mm IPD is fine if the distance from your glalbella to your mouth is also small - you just have a small face and your eyes are not close set then.
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The ratio of your IPD to the distance between your glabella and your mouth is more important than the IPD value alone. IOW, the 60mm IPD is fine if the distance from your glalbella to your mouth is also small - you just have a small face and your eyes are not close set then.
Yeah, obviously. My midface is normal in terms of length, though. Rather than attempting some radical surgery to actually move my mouth up (which would give me a small feminine face) I would prefer to attempt radical surgery to move my eyes apart. ;)
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Yeah, obviously. My midface is normal in terms of length, though. Rather than attempting some radical surgery to actually move my mouth up (which would give me a small feminine face) I would prefer to attempt radical surgery to move my eyes apart. ;)
OK, makes total sense. But there is that notion - if you're not good looking after jaw surgery, you never will be. But who am I to judge? I had jaw surgery 8 months ago and I am now contemplating another 3 hardcore surgeries.
Anyway, I think Alain Delon's eyes appear fairly close together, and he was a good looking dude.
I think the main problem with these craniofacial surgeries is that they are usually performed on the severely deformed. Being a couple of mms off here or there is not the end of the world. The outcome is always better than the starting point. You, OTOH, do not appear to have a severe deformity, so the "good enough" precision that the surgeons doing these surgeries are used to, may leave you WORSE off.
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I think your eyes are good. They do not look like they are too close to each other. If you posted a full face shot it'd be easier to judge.
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This is desirable.
Your orbital rims look okay to me.
The eyes are definitely close-set. Good luck if you try to get it rectified, but it's a serious procedure; certainly not something to be undertaken lightly.
(http://i.imgur.com/Yjkej1F.gif)
I like how the figure is smiling... :o
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OK, makes total sense. But there is that notion - if you're not good looking after jaw surgery, you never will be. But who am I to judge? I had jaw surgery 8 months ago and I am now contemplating another 3 hardcore surgeries.
Sounds like defeatism to me. :)
Orbital and malar surgeries should have at least as big of an impact as jaw surgery, considering how important this area of the face is.
Anyway, I think Alain Delon's eyes appear fairly close together, and he was a good looking dude.
Yeah, Alain Delon looked amazing.
I think the main problem with these craniofacial surgeries is that they are usually performed on the severely deformed. Being a couple of mms off here or there is not the end of the world. The outcome is always better than the starting point. You, OTOH, do not appear to have a severe deformity, so the "good enough" precision that the surgeons doing these surgeries are used to, may leave you WORSE off.
This sounds reasonable enough. However, whenever I am forced to gaze upon my face, it strikes me as a bolt from clear blue heavens how much more harmonious it would look if I could have it and all of its features (save for the nose) expanded bilateraly from the midline by just a few mm. I am a well-meaning but kind of socially inept guy, and I think that I would benefit greatly from being perceived as "oh, that guy looks good".
I think your eyes are good. They do not look like they are too close to each other. If you posted a full face shot it'd be easier to judge.
Alright, thanks for your input. I will try to add more images--though I won't want to post a direct frontal shot, I could perhaps try to take one that illustrates my PD to nasal length ratio.
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Sounds like defeatism to me. :)
Orbital and malar surgeries should have at least as big of an impact as jaw surgery, considering how important this area of the face is.
If you widen your face through malar osteotomy, your eyes may look more close set. Building up the bridge of the nose has the same effect, FWIW.
Believe me, I'm well aware of the importance of eyes. IMO, the eyes are at least 80% of looks. I have 2 surgeons willing to advance my infraorbital rims. But my face is wide, my IPD is 67 or 68, my eyes are small. I'm afraid they may look like "piss holes in the snow" afterwards.
Yeah, Alain Delon looked amazing.
For whatever reason, his eyes look closer together, the older he got. I wonder why. And his eye brows look higher as well. I wonder if he did some stupid "rejuvenation" brow lift like this guy:
(http://www.surgerymiracles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Kenny-Rogers-Plastic-Surgery-Before-After.jpg)
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Hopefully I can take a few later today provided that I can manage to borrow a camera. So you don't think that my eyes look overly close-set? Perhaps it would be more obvious if you could see the entirety of my nose.
Dude, what era are you from?
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Dude, what era are you from?
LOL. Pretty sure he means a proper camera. Phone cameras have too much lens distortion.
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Your eyes are not too close set at all. They have a good shape.
You will not benefit from infraorbital rim advancement, in fact quite the opposite as that may indeed make your eyes look too close set. There's nothing to be changed in this quadrant of your face. Final word.
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I would kill to have those eyes. Clear case of BDD
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Look pretty normal
Get a cream-coloured eyeliner pencil and use it in the inner corner waterline area if you want to make them look wider
Anyway, closer together eyes is more masculine, wide-set more feminine, no?
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wide set eyes are prefered on both genders from what I've read. BUT it all depends on how your features sit together. YOu can have perfect eye distance but if you nose is long or some other s**t is off then it wont look good.
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Thanks for replying, guys! Much appreciated.
If you widen your face through malar osteotomy, your eyes may look more close set. Building up the bridge of the nose has the same effect, FWIW.
My dorsum is overprojected, so I'm actually considering a reduction rhinoplasty. Could this perhaps increase the perceived interocular distance?
Believe me, I'm well aware of the importance of eyes. IMO, the eyes are at least 80% of looks. I have 2 surgeons willing to advance my infraorbital rims. But my face is wide, my IPD is 67 or 68, my eyes are small. I'm afraid they may look like "piss holes in the snow" afterwards.
I believe you! Are your eyes horizontally short or just "small" as in vertically narrow?
Dude, what era are you from?
I was born in the first half of the 1990s, but sometimes I feel as though I would be better off as a Mediaeval man. ::)
Your eyes are not too close set at all. They have a good shape.
You will not benefit from infraorbital rim advancement, in fact quite the opposite as that may indeed make your eyes look too close set. There's nothing to be changed in this quadrant of your face. Final word.
I do like the shape of my eyes (at any rate, I've seen far worse), but relative to the length of my face--which appears to be rather average--they strike me as too close together.
How exactly would sagittal advancement of the infraorbital region make the eyes seem closer together? I am inclined to believe you as you probably know a lot more about this stuff than I do, but it didn't strike me as intuitively obvious (as, for example, the self-evident fact that the wider the skull, the closer-set the eyes will look in relative terms).
I would kill to have those eyes. Clear case of BDD
Sometimes as feel as though I would kill for better spacing. I don't really think that I have BDD (though a psychiatrist once suggested it) as I base my self-evaluation on the reactions of others (and other people never seem to find me even remotely good-looking, if they did someone would have approached me out of the blue by now).
Get a cream-coloured eyeliner pencil and use it in the inner corner waterline area if you want to make them look wider
Perhaps I could use some very discreet makeup, but if anyone notices it I'm bound to get ostracised for being a "fag".
Anyway, closer together eyes is more masculine, wide-set more feminine, no?
Male PD is on average greater than female PD (and averageness of features/proportions seems to be very indicative of facial attractiveness), but the discrepancy seems to be smaller than that of overall facial length/width. Hence masculine eyes, while in absolute terms further apart, will seem slightly more close-set than feminine eyes.
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My dorsum is overprojected, so I'm actually considering a reduction rhinoplasty. Could this perhaps increase the perceived interocular distance?
I'd be real careful there. You don't want to end up with a "done" ski jump feminine nose. Rhinoplasty is a real crap shoot.
I believe you! Are your eyes horizontally short or just "small" as in vertically narrow?
Horizontally short. Although this may be an illusion due to IPD and big temples.
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I'd be real careful there. You don't want to end up with a "done" ski jump feminine nose. Rhinoplasty is a real crap shoot.
Yeah, rhinos seem fairly unreliable at times. I have this weird combination of an average radix, a high dorsum, and an upturned tip with slightly retracted alae. Ideally I would want keep the upturned tip, have some minor grafting done to the alae, and shave the dorsum conservatively.
Then again, some people who are considered very good looking such as the male model Sean O'Pry have just about the type of dorsum projection that I would like to get rid of, but just because some extraordinary model can pull a conventionally ugly feature off doesn't mean that I can.
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Here's a new image of my eyes. Just for reference, my PD is probably 59-60 mm (I have measured it like 50 times today, still can't get a more precise measurement) and my bizygomatic width is 13.8 cm. The latter measurement appears dead on average for an early-mid 20s male according to a facial measurements database that I consult, but my PD should be around 63-64 mm.
As you can see in this image there are dark circles underneath my eyes signaling orbital recession, but a physician whose advice I sought claimed that it might be due to allergies primarily. It does look worse now than it did pre-surgery (I had BSSO and LeFort I about three weeks ago), so perhaps it will lessen with time? The eyelid asymmetry should also be more evident in this one, though it doesn't bother me that much to be honest.
(http://i.imgur.com/NIFcLWI.jpg?1)
I will also add an imagine of my post-op profile, so that you can examine my orbits from the side.
(http://i.imgur.com/7OddtrD.jpg)
A year from now I might opt to get a chin wing to get a deeper, more masculine jaw. I also intend to fix my hairline with a transplant, as I feel that I am far too young to have recession in that area.
Pre-surgery I had a deep class II bite, do you think that my jaws were sufficiently advanced by the looks of it? To me my chin still looks weak (I didn't have a genioplasty as I would rather have a chin wing later on to improve my gonial angle), but my surgeon claims that this is due to swelling and that my profile will look good in a few months.
The image quality is pure s**te, I know, but I don't have better equipment yet.
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My eyes look almost exactly the same. You have thin skin under the eyes so the veins are more noticable (same as me). Your profile looks normal though so I'm not sure if it's an infraortibal deficiency. I'm pretty sure any plastic surgeon would recommend fat grafts.
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tbh i first scrolled down to look at the pics and I though, why is this guys on jawsurgery forum? everything looks good to me, then i read you had bsso/le fort. I couldn't even guess.
Remember that taking pics at a close distance distorts the face. Judging by the first picture, it kind of does look like the eyes are too close, but i feel like the pic was taken too close, throwing everything off.
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Here are my mother's eyes, for reference.
(http://i.imgur.com/tRFsCGq.jpg)
And my father's:
(http://i.imgur.com/bchgXWz.jpg)
As you can see, they both, unlike yours truly, have well-supported and well-proportioned eyes. This undoubtedly has fuelled my desire to obtain surgicially the eyes that I somehow reasoned were my "birthright", if that makes any sense.
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Your father has a great eye area. I got my fathers potato features, and my mother's class III. Had it been the other way around - my dad's perfectly orthognathic skull and my mother's killer eyes, nose and mouth, I would have been handsome.
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Your father has a great eye area. I got my fathers potato features, and my mother's class III. Had it been the other way around - my dad's perfectly orthognathic skull and my mother's killer eyes, nose and mouth, I would have been handsome.
I don't really know who gave me my features. Don't really resemble my parents at all.
My father keeps insisting that I'm "handsome", should "get a girlfriend", "get into boxing, you have long arms!" etc. I just can't deal with this "feelgood" nonsense--would much appreciate if he would stop trying to encourage me to accept my relative inferiority.
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Maybe because I am an older female, I see these younger people who decide they would like to look like movie stars and that perhaps their lives would, in some way, be better if they were super-duper-good-looking, and it just makes me shake my head and wonder what the hell has happened to the world. In reality, only about 2% of the population is outrageously good looking. Prior to the internet and photoshop, few people in the world had actually seen (in person) a truly good looking person. And you know what? The world went on. Now everyone wants to have movie-star looks, and the truth is "it just ain't going to happen." Surgeries only change your looks slightly to make you a slightly better version of yourself.
What you say makes a lot of sense. But neither the Internet, nor Photoshop can be uninvented, so neuroticism is bound to keep increasing in the foreseeable future. (Anyway, this stuff started before the Internet. Probably in the 50s. Colour movies and glossy magazines.)
But just as we haven't banned cars for causing pollution - instead producing cars that pollute less, we will probably end up making better looking people to solve this.
FWIW, movie stars are not a patch on magazine models. The latter look way too good for movies - the viewer will not empathise with them.
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I don't really know who gave me my features. Don't really resemble my parents at all.
My father keeps insisting that I'm "handsome", should "get a girlfriend", "get into boxing, you have long arms!" etc. I just can't deal with this "feelgood" nonsense--would much appreciate if he would stop trying to encourage me to accept my relative inferiority.
You're a f**king moron. Listen to your father. Your eyes are fine. Your whole face is handsome.
You just have approach avoidance anxiety --you're afraid to fail so you make excuses for not trying or why you'll fail regardless. You're not willing to work on those things you CAN indeed change like your f**king pencil-head personality.
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This makes me want to just give you a big hug. Not in a sleezy, creepy way, but in a "God Damm, who f**ked you up way."
YOU LOOK NORMAL. Straight up, you look normal.
This is a serious question, "What in God's name made you decide you are inferior in any way?" Did someone tell you this or did you come to this conclusion on your own? I really want to know. If someone told you this, I could kick their ass for screwing you up.
Maybe because I am an older female, I see these younger people who decide they would like to look like movie stars and that perhaps their lives would, in some way, be better if they were super-duper-good-looking, and it just makes me shake my head and wonder what the hell has happened to the world. In reality, only about 2% of the population is outrageously good looking. Prior to the internet and photoshop, few people in the world had actually seen (in person) a truly good looking person. And you know what? The world went on. Now everyone wants to have movie-star looks, and the truth is "it just ain't going to happen." Surgeries only change your looks slightly to make you a slightly better version of yourself.
I think you should stop having surgery, or if you insist on changing anything (which you do not need to) perhaps a genioplasty. Nothing to the eyes.
Thanks for your concern, but I have decided either to become conventionally unquestionably good-looking (I don't desire perfection, but a clear advantage over the majority of the population) or to simply let go. Since my psyche is already deeply damaged, reason dictates that I should focus my attention where there is real, tangible improvment to be had--skeletal osteotomies.
What are you talking about? its obvious that his selfesteem hasnt been built on his look before jaw surgerie so its obvious that he has already feeling of inferiority and believe when you were bullied as a kid as a teen because of your appearance you will never ever gain confidence like normal looking people. We dont talk about movie stars here we talk about look normal and OPs jaw before surgery was out of normal limits. And its a myth that good look on men doesnt matter I had very good job on a bank and must leave because I were mobbed. Our society is cruel and doesnt accept intelligent people with some discrepancy in the look for well paid jobs or going out you will every second every minute every hour every day remembered that you are not part of the winning clique. Coming back to OP what talked your father to you isnt the reality you look normal nothing more its the biggest mistake from parents, friends to say that you look outrageous when it isnt the case you will end delusional. Father is right built up some muscles.
what concerns your eyes you have very very deep set eyes thats normally good feature in men (also woman) and also very forward superiour orbital rims but your eyebrows are shagging to much. So with your already deep set eyes and shagging eyebrows you look a bit upset (I have the opposite very high eyebrows (whats looks normally more friendly but can also look ridicoulous in men). Your eyes may a bit narrow but its your whole face that is narrow nothing bad at all and you will never find a surgeon that will set your eyes wider because its very invasive surgery much more invasive than a lefort3 and to obtain vertical and horizontal symmetry is tricky your eyes now are symmetric and last your jaw surgery was a success very good result congrats.
Your analysis of my preop situation (as well as my results, I believe) is well-founded. As I mentioned above, being a "5/10" won't suffice for me. As my mental profile is offensively unattractive to most people--women in particular--I must obtain conventionally better looks. I have already consulted with reputable craniofacial surgeons in continental Europe who would be happy to perform a "reverse box osteotomy" on me provided that I pay juicy amounts of money and the whole ordeal is "under the radar" so to speak. However, after researching the matter for days upon days, I have reached the conclusion that since my pupillary distance is at least "normal", there is more improvement to be had through malar and chin wing osteotomies.
I have terrible skin and a receding hairline too, and with scar removal, β-carotene supplementation, and hair transplants I might attain a look that is significantly more agreeable to the eyes of modern women.
Here, by the way, is a near-frontal image of my preop (17 year old) self. Imagine an additional centimeter of horizontal zygomatic protrusion, a lower hairline, and gonial angles enhanced by a chin wing osteotomy. If I would also work out and obtain more muscle mass (especially around the neck and shoulders) I soundly believe that my looks, while never reaching the status of "oh my god he's soooo hot", could at least amount to an "oh, he's a good-looking guy" after some serious modification.
(http://i.imgur.com/p3N6W39.jpg)
Here's another preop image, just a few weeks prior to surgery. s**t quality, but it's the closest thing that I have to a full frontal facial shot.
(http://i.imgur.com/znDlY7I.jpg)
You're a f**king moron. Listen to your father. Your eyes are fine. Your whole face is handsome.
You just have approach avoidance anxiety --you're afraid to fail so you make excuses for not trying or why you'll fail regardless. You're not willing to work on those things you CAN indeed change like your f**king pencil-head personality.
No need for hostility, man. Anyhow, I agree that my personality is f**ked up. It is, in fact, beyond repair. Psychology is a ludicrous pseudo-science and no drug on Earth has been able to "help" me. The conclusion that I have reached is that I simply must improve my looks, since it is just a matter of rearranging facial bones and improving skin/hair/body quality.
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I like the picture of you with long hair. Do you have any frontal post-op pictures? Your skin can most likely be remedied by following a strict paleo diet. It's an age old myth that diet doesn't affect your skin and I have myself noticed extreme results by removing dairy, grains, industrial fats and refined sugars from my diet (while I can manage to stay on such a strict diet anyway).
I don't want to discourage you from having further jaw surgery if that's what you need to feel better about yourself but IMO you already look so good that I think the biggest gains would come from hitting the gym hard and dressing well. Something as simple as buying a pair of nice shoes (John Lobb, Crockett & Jones etc) is far more likely to get you noticed by females than a chin wing would ever accomplish.
Which surgeons in Europe have you consulted with by the way?
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I like the picture of you with long hair. Do you have any frontal post-op pictures? Your skin can most likely be remedied by following a strict paleo diet. It's an age old myth that diet doesn't affect your skin and I have myself noticed extreme results by removing dairy, grains, industrial fats and refined sugars from my diet (while I can manage to stay on such a strict diet anyway).
I do agree that the long hair--through making my eyes look less close-set--is a reasonably decent look. As for the dietary aspect, I being a student of Weston A. Price) wholeheartedly agree, on an empirical foundation. However, with severe depression and suicidal ideation it is difficult to maintain "healthy" habits.
I don't want to discourage you from having further jaw surgery if that's what you need to feel better about yourself but IMO you already look so good that I think the biggest gains would come from hitting the gym hard and dressing well. Something as simple as buying a pair of nice shoes (John Lobb, Crockett & Jones etc) is far more likely to get you noticed by females than a chin wing would ever accomplish.
I've had C&Js since I was 16. Hasn't helped me out. ;)
Which surgeons in Europe have you consulted with by the way?
I'll have to ask if I can share those details, given the "extravagant foreign doctor offering so-called unethical procedures in exchange for the thrill of the job as well as a hefty amount of money" nature of this hypothetical procedure.
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However, with severe depression and suicidal ideation it is difficult to maintain "healthy" habits.
I have the same problem. Working out and eating healthy form a symbiotic relationship for me so maybe getting serious about improving your body will help you eat better. I know it's hard to find the motivation to take those first steps but believe me you don't want to reach my age and still be in the situation you are in now.
I've had C&Js since I was 16. Hasn't helped me out. ;)
The shoes aren't magic. You have to do a little bit yourself. ;D
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Well listen buddy, if you have severe depression and suicidal ideation that is a massive problem. If things get really bad you should go see a psychiatrist and go on drugs. I'm hesitant to wholeheartedly recommend that since drugs are addictive (I've been on both sides and know how tough that can be mentally when all you want to do is blow your brains out --it's a living hell).
Okay, your problems post-surgery are not physical. More than a few people have told you you're good looking. You need to take baby steps to working on your ability to interact, talk, socialize with the opposite sex. Do you have groups of friends and such that could kind of ease that sort of interaction? Also, if you're a student of Weston A. Price and such, you should begin exercising and building up a killer body and eating paleo will help with that.
You keep making all these statements about how empirically grounded your philosophy is but you do realize that your supposed ugliness to the opposite sex is based on anecdotal evidence at best, right? You seem to assert it as a theory and it's not, it's the misguided hypothesis you are erroneously living your life through. Well, I'm not here to debate scientific epistemology (see two can play at your little pseudo-intellectual game bubbah!). lol
Anyway, you're not retarded. Join some clubs, play sports, go out and get drunk. You're in europe, bang some hookers dude, it's legal for you. At least that'll get rid of some of that cum that's clearly backed up into your brain and made you this moronic.
Also, could you please save us the melodrama as the attention you're clearly craving should come from real world people and not the internets.
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OP, can you share how many milimeters your upper and lower jaw were moved ?
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when someone pouts/makes a bit of a duck face, why does it make their face more attractive? (forget about the lips looking bigger. Ignore the lips). What procedure best mimics this look?
OP - I think you look pretty good.
How tall are you?
And how can you afford to pay for numerous expensive surgeries with seemingly little regard for the costs? You rich? Rich parents?
Just curious! :)
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You look good with the long hair. Grow it out again. That picture ... For some reason, you look like you have more defined cheekbones. So if you can get more defined ones through osteotomies, go for it.
My father told me that I look like a drug addict (which I kind of am, so that's just going for honesty the way I see it) with the long hair. :D
I think that the defined cheekbones look comes from "better" (more pleasing) lighting and the contours created by the hair framing my face.
I cant believe that a surgeon propose you such invasive surgery . Your second pictures with the long hairs make me curios are this before or after jaw surgery? On this photo you have already very pronounced cheeks like johnny depp in the movie where he plays the dealer forget the name...Im not kidding you look a bit like him on this photo :D Hey man its not so bad like you think are you swedish you look nordic?
Oh, no surgeon proposed it to me. It was I who asked them to consider it and that I would be interesting in paying a lot of money.
The pic with the long hair is preop. Postop I am still a bit swollen which makes me look asymmetrical and weird.
Yeah, I am Swedish.
I think it's because he's makeing the duck lip face. Though it does give some insight to what he'd look like with projecting cheekbones.
I can see why it would look like that, but no, I am not pouting. My mouth is naturally pouty-looking as a consequence of my braces (and reasonably full/feminine lips). Perhaps the cheekbones look more projecting due to lens distortion (unlike the other images, that one was taken from a distance greater than 1 meter).
when someone pouts/makes a bit of a duck face, why does it make their face more attractive? (forget about the lips looking bigger. Ignore the lips). What procedure best mimics this look?
OP - I think you look pretty good.
How tall are you?
And how can you afford to pay for numerous expensive surgeries with seemingly little regard for the costs? You rich? Rich parents?
Just curious! :)
To be honest I think that I do look pretty decent in the long hair pic, but it is grainy and probably paints an overly flattering image. The yellowish lighting makes my skin look better.
I am 6'1.
My family has a fair amount of money, yeah.
OP, can you share how many milimeters your upper and lower jaw were moved ?
As soon as my surgeon gives me the details.
Well listen buddy, if you have severe depression and suicidal ideation that is a massive problem. If things get really bad you should go see a psychiatrist and go on drugs. I'm hesitant to wholeheartedly recommend that since drugs are addictive (I've been on both sides and know how tough that can be mentally when all you want to do is blow your brains out --it's a living hell).
Okay, your problems post-surgery are not physical. More than a few people have told you you're good looking. You need to take baby steps to working on your ability to interact, talk, socialize with the opposite sex. Do you have groups of friends and such that could kind of ease that sort of interaction? Also, if you're a student of Weston A. Price and such, you should begin exercising and building up a killer body and eating paleo will help with that.
You keep making all these statements about how empirically grounded your philosophy is but you do realize that your supposed ugliness to the opposite sex is based on anecdotal evidence at best, right? You seem to assert it as a theory and it's not, it's the misguided hypothesis you are erroneously living your life through. Well, I'm not here to debate scientific epistemology (see two can play at your little pseudo-intellectual game bubbah!). lol
Anyway, you're not retarded. Join some clubs, play sports, go out and get drunk. You're in europe, bang some hookers dude, it's legal for you. At least that'll get rid of some of that cum that's clearly backed up into your brain and made you this moronic.
Also, could you please save us the melodrama as the attention you're clearly craving should come from real world people and not the internets.
Generally speaking I don't disagree with you. Just a few notes:
1. I can't legally have sex with prostitutes here (there are no "European" laws that permit it). Even if I could, it would be pointless as there would be no genuine attraction of the flesh involved, and that is what I crave.
2. I am socially retarded in many ways.
3. I haven't claimed that my philosophy (classical skepticism) is empirically grounded, just that scientistic dogma is empirically unfounded. If you want to discuss epistemology we should do it elsewhere.
4. There is plenty of truth to the claim that I do crave something (supposed melodrama aside), but it isn't attention. What I do desire is mutual attraction, and there is little to none of that to be had here. From my tenure here I want unbiased opinions as for what aspects of my look could be altered osteotomically.
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We create our own prisons. What you are looking for you are not going to be able to purchase from a surgeon. You are going to have to build it yourself. Mentally. Get your ass under a squat rack. In a public gym.
What I am looking for is a properly (in the eyes of women) handsome face. There is a slim chance that I can purchase this from a surgeon, but no chance at all that I will receive it by squatting.
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I've seen this recommendation of lifting (heavy) free weights so often as of late. Is that a new fad because Schwarzenegger is back into acting?
It's literally the go to solution on online forums whenever someone voices unhappyness about anything.
Oh, you're poor? Do some deadlifts
Can't get laid ? Do some squats
Generally depressed? Get your bench to two plates.
ridiculous.
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I've seen this recommendation of lifting (heavy) free weights so often as of late. Is that a new fad because Schwarzenegger is back into acting?
It's literally the go to solution on online forums whenever someone voices unhappyness about anything.
Oh, you're poor? Do some deadlifts
Can't get laid ? Do some squats
Generally depressed? Get your bench to two plates.
ridiculous.
It's obviously not the solution to every problem but if you have a problem with confidence then building a better body could help with that and I believe physical workout is good for your mental health in general. Just don't become a douchebag and start lecturing everyone you meet about how unhealthy they are eating. ;D
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It's obviously not the solution to every problem but if you have a problem with confidence then building a better body could help with that and I believe physical workout is good for your mental health in general. Just don't become a douchebag and start lecturing everyone you meet about how unhealthy they are eating. ;D
That actually is pretty awesome advice though. If you have a stacked body (for a man) it makes a ton of problems disappear.
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Yes it would.
It absolutely would.
and then you'd open your mouth and scare the f**k out everyone away. you people are straight up dips**ts.
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Not sure where in the discussion this fits in but I thought it was funny:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbeEuYAZFL4
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lol guy 1 was f**king hilarious. guy 2 was a douchebag. and those chicks were straight up neeeeeesty.
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like seriously boys. if you're doing jaw surgery so you can bang barfbags like those two hags in the video you need to massively improve your standards as well as your game.
jesus, it just hurts me to see other men stoop to such brutally low levels. f**k, be a man, conquer the world, take what you want! (not trying to induce a rape vibe, just you know grow some balls!).
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Ok, is it that you can't learn or that you won't learn. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you come across as if you think if you just have the perfect face, suddenly hoards of naked women that you find attractive will be flinging themselves at you. That maybe the world will treat you differently. This will not happen.
I don't believe that I will ever have a "perfect" face, but I've never known a conventionally attractive man who wasn't approached by girls on a regular basis.
Women are attracted to depth of soul, content of character
With all due respect, I've known plenty of guys with both of these traits who were utterly socially ostracised for bad looks and/or a priori social impopularity. One of them was a concerto pianist with a serious aptitude for philosophy and an unwavering sense of right and wrong, nicest and most courageous person I have ever met (sadly he killed himself due to adult bullying and loneliness).
self-confidence
A function of one's life experience. I have no "self-confidence" since I have no reason whatsoever to expect that I will be successful where previously I have known little but failure.
I'll drop this worn-out quote here just because it fits so nicely.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein
self-reliance.
In other words, monetary self-sufficiency (since no-one is truly self-reliant in this complex societal structure). I am sure that this could "attract" people (platonically as well as romantically) who--like leeches--are primarily interested in playing one for their own selfish gain. I've met quite a few of those people.
If by self-reliance you mean an all-around capable "handyman" type of thing, I simply cannot take it seriously, since the (handsome and "cool") guys that I saw getting validated over and over again throughout my youth could barely wipe themselves after taking a dump.
It has absolutely nothing to do with looks.
Surely you cannot believe this? Some conventionally handsome guy, say, Michael Fassbender or young Leonardo DiCaprio wouldn't even have a slight edge over the "average" guy?
The reason I say get under a squat rack, is that when you have a couple hundred pounds of iron on your back and no one else to carry it for you, you'll find out real fast what you are made of and who you are. Your family money will not be able to help you under the iron. If you can stick with it, you will develop self-acceptance and confidence. Not the in-your-face confidence, but a quiet confidence.
This makes me think of new agey "change your life in seven easy steps" routines, but I am certainly willing to work out (and I have done so in the past, prior to getting surgery).
Then women will be attracted to you. I promise you.
Never promise what you can't deliver. ;)
My heart simply goes out to this young man in obvious distress. I wish I could help him.
If you want to help me, you could tell me what aspects of my appearance you would change to make me more attractive.
Lol!
Honestly....I'm an educated person. But if the OP spoke to me in the same way he types on here... Hmmm. I'm assuming you don't, and you are more approachable.
Nowadays I don't speak much at all, but I used to be perceived as rather "normal". I adapt my vocabulary and intonation appropriately to the social setting. My purpose here is to analyse facial minutiae to arrive at conclusions regarding the appearance of myself and others, not to display "confidence" or "swag".
Most women gravitate towards guys that are a bit aggressive and asshole-ish.
Take note ;)
Yeah, that isn't me, and is most likely never going to be me. I could be aggressive given the right circumstances, and no doubt some people perceive me as an "asshole". However, I am not the type of "asshole" that women crave, not by a long shot.
Hence I should focus my attention on what can concretely be altered for the better--facial appearance.
like seriously boys. if you're doing jaw surgery so you can bang barfbags like those two hags in the video you need to massively improve your standards as well as your game.
That's funny, I am usually told to lower my standards (as though they were unreasonably high, though I would be content with the average slim girl my age).
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I think there's two ways to look at this:
One is long term while the other is instant gratification.
Just look at Chris Pratt. He was heavy before and now he's freaking buff and chiseled. I still enjoyed him for his personality (pre weight loss) and that's what made him very attractive- now, he's got more brownie points because he's got the whole package (body, face, personality). Would he be any less if he were still chubby? No. In this sense, looks are just the cherry on top of the sundae that no one really cares to eat but, they want it because it looks nice. It's still a delicious sundae with or without the cherry.
Though I do believe initial physical attraction is important- it's not everything and I doubt it makes for a lasting union.
Anyhow, do you really want a shallow partner? I don't see the need or want to be fawned over by such people that base ones worth on how you look. This is a recipe for s**t, s**t and more s**t. Those types of people are hollow and boring anyways. I would feel miserable if I asked my partner: "why do you love me?" And they respond with: "because you look pretty"... So, when I get older and my looks fade- what then? Very depressing if you think about it.
Everyone has their preferences though- whether you want everyone to take a glance and have instant attraction or the longer route; personality.
I honestly think personality trumps all.
Would you still find Chris Pratt attractive if his face looked like this, "personality" and body intact?
(http://i.imgur.com/trHCR2A.jpg)
On the topic of partners and shallowness, I am not sure if I want a partner at all anymore. I did when I was younger, but nowadays I can be truly passionate only about three things: music, cosmogony, and physical validation. Having girls go "eww" at me throughout my youth seriously f**ked my "personality" up beyond repair. It made me unable to trust people in general, and transformed my very essence into that of a leech craving (almost) above all for people (women) to find me physically attractive.
So that is what I do. Speculate about existence, play/record/enjoy music, and try to devise ways to become good-looking. Everything else has the allure of watching paint dry.
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I was pin pointing Pratt's weight, but alright. And to be candid: no- I don't find that kid attractive. Pratt looks normal, his weight was only the issue. This kid you posted clearly doesn't look "normal" (face, body, etc.). If I posted a pic of the cat lady- would you be attracted to her? No- she doesn't look normal.
You're skewing the general idea that people don't consider personality and favoring it all into looks and looks only- but hey, to each; his own.
Pratt doesn't look "normal", he is unusually handsome. Angular wide face, shapely nose, excellent skin. It is true that the specimen that I selected is less attractive than "normal", but that illustrates my point. Immanent to your conception of an attractive man there seems to be, unsurprisingly, an attractive (proportionally near-perfect) face.
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By "normal" I mean a face that doesn't have many discrepancies. Pratt is proportionate before and after weightloss.
Indeed, this is precisely my idea of things. A well-proportioned face with clarity of skin is the biggest asset there is. Some people suggest that I am after this abstract "perfect" beauty, but this isn't the case. My face has too many discrepancies to be considered conventionally attractive (jaw/chin/mouth too narrow, eyes too close together), hence my objective is to surgically (or otherwise, but I see little concrete hope in such ventures) correct those deviations.
Now that we have established this, perhaps we could focus on surgical improvement.
Here is an image of my mother. Note that while she doesn't look "perfect" by any means, she has a harmonious (for some reason this image makes her nose looked crooked, which isn't the case) proportionate face with normal eye spacing and well-developed jaws. Wholly unsurprisingly she was considered attractive as a young woman though she had a very autistic and bland "personality".
(http://i.imgur.com/EswBc4c.jpg)
What I desire in the looks department is nothing short of proportionality and clarity of skin. That is, what my ancestors looked like.
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By "normal" I mean a face that doesn't have many discrepancies. Pratt is proportionate before and after weightloss.
A lot of fat asses (men and women) have terrific bone structure under all that lard.
Drew Carey:
(http://thefitnesschronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/How-did-Drew-Carey-Lose-Weight-3.jpg)
Young Drew Carey:
(http://www.keysmashblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/drew-carey.jpg)
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So that you all may judge my facial traits better, I will share another image of myself that I just found, taken with a good camera. I was about 17 years old back then, and suffered from severe acne and therefrom scarring.
(http://i.imgur.com/nOd6P.jpg)
In fact, if anyone would want to morph this pic to accomplish skin clarity, correct the close-set eyes, make the mandible deeper and more angular, cheekbones more pronounced, etc, I would be very grateful. It should be momentarily satisfying to view what could have been should my face have been better proportioned.
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I'd say you objectively looked good enough to have a girlfriend
Unfortunately every girl I ever met disagreed.
My biggest problem I would say (now that the jaw is somewhat "fixed", though it still requires a chin wing to become "good" proper) is, as is indicated by the title of the thread, my eye area. Eyes are:
1.) Set too deep within the sockets, making them unexpressive and giving me a pseudo-browbone protrustion.
2.) Too close together. A mere 2-4 mm of additional space between them would make a hell of a difference.
3.) Too "cat-shaped", it looks feminine and weird (this is mostly a problem because the remainder of my face also lacks masculine dimorphism).
4.) Surrounded by strange layers of adipose tissue making the area look bloated. I have my eyebrows raised in this image--imagine what they look like with the brows at rest.
5. Poorly supported due to suborbital retrusion. Dark circles around the eyes due to insufficient zygomatic projection.
Unfortunately, many of these things are very very difficult to alter, or so I have gathered.
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i'm still kind of confused about chin-wing.
It increases the height of the mandible? Gives a longer face?
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i'm still kind of confused about chin-wing.
It increases the height of the mandible? Gives a longer face?
Yeah, my midface is of average length, but my chin height is too small. Anterior and posterior mandible height need to be increased by 7-11 mm (according to my calliper measurements as compared to a database of average facial dimensions). My philtrum is 13-15 mm (dead on average, the shorter measurement is postop and might be due to swelling), bizygomatic diameter dead on average, nose length average as can be, etc. The parts of my face that deviate considerably from average measurements are my eye spacing (5.9-6 cm, several mm below average) and chin height (around a cm shorter than average).
If you look closely, almost every attractive male has a deep, robust chin.
(http://i.imgur.com/EiXLvGs.jpg)
His face is overall slightly longer after photoshop, and literally all of this additional height comes from the chin. Philtrum/nose region was shortened.
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yeah, that morph is crazy.
The guy is already fairly good looking, but the morph makes him look like an Armani model, lol.
Then by comparison when you go back to the original, he doesn't look as good as he did first time around.
Here's a shot I took ages ago.
In one of the pics that I labeled ('added bulk to bottom of chin and jawline), would that actually be something like a chin-wing?
At the time of making that image, I'd never heard of that procedure and didn't know such a think existed.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Here's a shot I took ages ago.
In one of the pics that I labeled ('added bulk to bottom of chin and jawline), would that actually be something like a chin-wing?
At the time of making that image, I'd never heard of that procedure and didn't know such a think existed.
Yes, that is chin wing territory.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Chin_Wing.svg/220px-Chin_Wing.svg.png)
I desperately need one to make my lower face more proportionate and masculine.
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in this picture, the girl on the right is actually a fair bit thinner than the girl on the left. She has less bodyfat.
However, the bigger girl on the left has a better defined face. Look at the mouth and chin area.
With the girl on the right, you can't really see her chin. You can a small circle/the 'button' of the chin, and then it all blends into the neck.
With the girl on the left, you can clearly see the outline and shape of the chin and it's well defined.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that she is the thinner of the two.
What is the difference here?
Is it that the girl on the left has a bigger lower palate? The whole chin area seems to be projected whereas with the slimmer girl, only the tip of the chin sticks out and then the rest seem to cave inwards.
Is that to do with size of pallete? Recessed mandible? retroclined teeth? Something else???
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I appreciate the discussion bro, but could we take it elsewhere? Here in this thread I would like to focus on my own defects and how these could be altered for the better.
Anyhow, I think that her jaw looks better simply because, as you speculated, the entire segment is more projected, laterally as well as sagittally.
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cool. My bad!
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Facenit, you make sweeping generalisations (unsound ones, furthermore) based on very little evidence. I have chimed in on topics unrelated to my own specific sitaution, for example here:
http://jawsurgeryforums.com/index.php/topic,4523.msg37764.html#new
However, naturally I am going to focus on own toll here on this forum until I have picked up enough to accurately give others fruitful advice. I am not an educated maxillofacial surgeon or anything, I just know some of the stuff that pertains to my deformities. As my knowledge expands, I will be able to try to help others more frequently I hope.
In addition to the above, your assumptions about my behaviour when interacting with people in "the real world" are entirely faulty. I would assume (with sound probabilistic foundation) that you know nothing about my in the flesh encounters with other people, so it would be prudent of you not to play the psychoanalyst. I appreciate that you are trying to help me with an easy fix, but trust me when I tell you that I have tried every conceivable mode of interaction. I rarely talk about myself in social situations--people who know me in real life usually ask me why I'm so reluctant to to do so. I would NEVER talk to anyone except for my very closest friends and family about my issues with my appearance (internet activity excluded).
Everything you may think that you know about me is a chimera. This is simply one of my modes, one that is employed exclusively for this particular context.
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I'm adding another image of my preop self, so that you may better appreciate the full extent of my malproportionality. It is a full frontal, taken with a cellphone camera, so there must be some lens distortion. Anyhow, it is the complete version of the one of my eyes posted in the OP.
(http://i.imgur.com/i19pe.jpg)
Here my poor skin quality becomes more apparent (acne scarring most notably). You can also see how close together my eyes truly look, as compared with my (perfectly normal) midfacial dimension.
Again, if anyone is capable (and willing) of morphing my face, please consider it. I would like to see a version of myself with the eyes a few mm further apart, well-developed zygomatic bones, and a wider, deeper mandible.
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instead of surgery costs you should just pay for me to be flown down to wherever you live and I'll hang out with you for a week or two and we'll go out and rage and I'll show you how to pick up chicks and get laid and stuff. Seriously, you should consider this.
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I'd do... unspeakable things to have that eye shape.
Why not post a frontal photo of your face post op for others to judge if your eyes are unacceptably close for your new face shape?
Like you said, the size of the eyeball would be an issue when increasing the horizontal length of eyelids, I'm sure it's ALMOST unavoidable for that procedure to look "off".
Also, like Ploskoplus said, most box osteotoies are done with a view to make things good enough because anything is better than the patient's starting point.
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I dont want to jump on the bandwagon of "you look good man you dont need anything" and even though I agree with most people here I can see what you are saying.
I dont know why we keep talking about attraction here but I thought this board is already on the same page that the start of attraction = mostly looks. Long term relationships = looks + good personality. Obviously there are some exceptions.
The problem that people still think this is because hollywood makes stupid ass shows an movies portraying hot wives with ugly and dumb husbands such as: married with children, king of queens, modern family (i'd probably be able to go on but i don't watch tv). My point being both genders have almost equally as bad. Where as women can wear makeup men cant. What you see is what you get.
Anyways, I think your eyes are good. Before doing any crazy box osteotomy, get a chin wing first and see how it changes the relationship in your face. Make the chin wider. Not sure how you can make your mouth wider?
Also just post a regular photo man.
When I came on here and asked for advice I took some pics with my cellphone 1 meter away. From all angles, and then people gave me advice. I'm sure you have a cellphone with a camera if youre able to get jaw surgery no problem.
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instead of surgery costs you should just pay for me to be flown down to wherever you live and I'll hang out with you for a week or two and we'll go out and rage and I'll show you how to pick up chicks and get laid and stuff. Seriously, you should consider this.
I will consider that. Thanks. :)
I'd do... unspeakable things to have that eye shape.
Why not post a frontal photo of your face post op for others to judge if your eyes are unacceptably close for your new face shape?
Like you said, the size of the eyeball would be an issue when increasing the horizontal length of eyelids, I'm sure it's ALMOST unavoidable for that procedure to look "off".
Also, like Ploskoplus said, most box osteotoies are done with a view to make things good enough because anything is better than the patient's starting point.
I too like the shape of my eyes, but their dimension is just... bleh. Once the swelling has subsided I will take better pics, I still look like too much of a potato for that.
Perhaps local eyeball expansion will become a thing eventually.
I dont want to jump on the bandwagon of "you look good man you dont need anything" and even though I agree with most people here I can see what you are saying.
Thanks, that's refreshing indeed.
I dont know why we keep talking about attraction here but I thought this board is already on the same page that the start of attraction = mostly looks. Long term relationships = looks + good personality. Obviously there are some exceptions.
I mentioned that my looks have previously kept me from obtaining a healthy love life, and things progressed from there. Most people seem to prefer focusing on my mental state, and I try to respond to questions asked and imperatives dealt.
The problem that people still think this is because hollywood makes stupid ass shows an movies portraying hot wives with ugly and dumb husbands such as: married with children, king of queens, modern family (i'd probably be able to go on but i don't watch tv). My point being both genders have almost equally as bad. Where as women can wear makeup men cant. What you see is what you get.
Things may have been that way half a century ago, but nowadays, oh no.
Anyways, I think your eyes are good. Before doing any crazy box osteotomy, get a chin wing first and see how it changes the relationship in your face. Make the chin wider. Not sure how you can make your mouth wider?
Yeah, I will prioritise the chin wing. It is apparently possible to widen the mouth, but very difficult to make it aesthetically pleasing.
Also just post a regular photo man.
When I came on here and asked for advice I took some pics with my cellphone 1 meter away. From all angles, and then people gave me advice. I'm sure you have a cellphone with a camera if youre able to get jaw surgery no problem.
I would do that if it weren't for the swelling.
Anyhow, guys, I decided to have a morph done. With eyeball enlargement and subsequent horizontal palpebral fissure elongation, chin wing, box osteotomy, malar osteotomy, and horizontal mouth augmentation I could possibly look like that. Unfortunately, several of those procedures are largely unavailable or even as of yet unknown.
(http://i.imgur.com/d0pf2oZ.jpg)
Much nicer proportions, no?
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(http://i.imgur.com/d0pf2oZ.jpg)
Much nicer proportions, no?
Yes, nicer proportions. What is your actual IPD and how many mm do you figure you added in the morph? Did you do anything to change the mid face?
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Yes, nicer proportions. What is your actual IPD and how many mm do you figure you added in the morph? Did you do anything to change the mid face?
I expanded the zygos and orbitals overall, as well as the mouth. No other changes to the midface. My actual PD is between 59 and 60 mm (cannot for the life of me get a more precise measurement), in the morph it's about 67 mm. In reality I would probably opt for 63-64 mm unless I could really make my eyes horizontally larger.
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you need to accept that surgery can't give you 10/10 looks and some things aren't possible. You made out good with your previous surgery. stop being such an autist and worry about making more money. You will get more girls with that anyway.
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you need to accept that surgery can't give you 10/10 looks and some things aren't possible. You made out good with your previous surgery. stop being such an autist and worry about making more money. You will get more girls with that anyway.
If I do have autism it isn't something that I can "stop" being. Anyhow, I do realise that I will never, bar divine intervention, become a "10/10". However, I would like, if at all possible, to go from 5/10 to perhaps 7-8/10. I don't like to "rate" on a scale 1-10, but there's that.
I don't want girls who are attracted to money, I want girls who are attracted to my looks. Hence, I rarely tell anyone IRL that I come from a wealthy family.
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Why aren't you considering my offer!!!??
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If I do have autism it isn't something that I can "stop" being. Anyhow, I do realise that I will never, bar divine intervention, become a "10/10". However, I would like, if at all possible, to go from 5/10 to perhaps 7-8/10. I don't like to "rate" on a scale 1-10, but there's that.
I don't want girls who are attracted to money, I want girls who are attracted to my looks. Hence, I rarely tell anyone IRL that I come from a wealthy family.
1. That's true and sorry if you are truly autistic however you can learn be more normal
2. I see what your talking about man but like i said before, the only things you need to improve on (looks wise) arent really changeable
3. What's the difference? Either way they are shallow reasons, at least with money you earned it.(not in the case of family money but you get the point)
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You seriously need to bulk up and get a cool like mad men style haircut.
Seriously, even if you have a potato face (which you don't) a guy like you who is especially socially retarded needs to develop a buff body. Think Jason Statham style. You could achieve that with like 5 1.5 hour workouts a week. Hit the metal and protein HARD!!!!!!
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I personally don't buy the whole if chicks are attracted to a guy's wealth they are goldiggers.
f**k THAT. Chicks are attracted to a guy's attributes. Looks may be one attribute, wealth is a symbol of your munificence and what you've accomplished in life and a guy who is ambitious, and achieves things will have wealth (or other types of prestige) and so that is ATTRACTIVE. They are still attracted to you for YOU. Stare into the depth of your soul motherf**ker and behind every mask you tear of you'll find another until you reach the VOID. There's NOTHING else. THERE IS NO "YOU" the self is an illusion. So wanting women to love you for you or your looks or your wealth. It's all just a game motherf**ker. Play to win!
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One of my best friends has asbergers. But rather than give up on being socially accepted he used his calculated style of thinking in order to figure out the aspects of normal behavior and wrote it all down. Over time he has modeled his own behavior after what he's learned and has gotten to the point where he has more friends than me and gets laid weekly. And no he isn't particularity good looking
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I personally don't buy the whole if chicks are attracted to a guy's wealth they are goldiggers.
f**k THAT. Chicks are attracted to a guy's attributes. Looks may be one attribute, wealth is a symbol of your munificence and what you've accomplished in life and a guy who is ambitious, and achieves things will have wealth (or other types of prestige) and so that is ATTRACTIVE. They are still attracted to you for YOU. Stare into the depth of your soul motherf**ker and behind every mask you tear of you'll find another until you reach the VOID. There's NOTHING else. THERE IS NO "YOU" the self is an illusion. So wanting women to love you for you or your looks or your wealth. It's all just a game motherf**ker. Play to win!
wtf lazlo your the one who told me to get a genio and worry about making cash god damnit, your only ageeing because you also want wider set eyes smh. But i agree that you should increase you sexual market value as much as possible but eye spacing is a dangerous thing to f**k with and its a rare procedure even for deformed patients. The chin thing might help him so i guess go ahead and try with that Charles but your not going to get much better. If anything id say your best bet is to get jacked and do hgh/steroids if your lucky you will get some masculanization in your face but its dangerous and your fine as is imo.
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I recognize the general attitudes and choice of language that the OP uses as part of the Sluthate subculture (along with the associated forums, PUAHate, lookism.net, etc.). I've come across those websites numerous times looking for info and before/after pics on jaw surgery and think that they are one of the main sources of users on this forum.
If I had to give the OP advice, I'd try to keep it pithy with two points that he should keep in mind when considering these matters.
First, Sluthate is emotionally and morally toxic. People arrive there as socially awkward young men wondering why they aren't successful with women. Sluthate informs them that the problem is that women are only interested in men with absurdly high physical (and sometimes monetary) standards. (For people unfamiliar with the site, it's not uncommon there for people to say things like "all men under 6'4 are unattractive to women," or "if you are not famous, any attractive girl will inevitably cheat on you.") Why are men so compelled by this kind of thing? Obviously it makes them feel hopeless, but the hopelessness has some appeal to people with mild narcissistic traits, as it tells them that the pity they seek in others is well-deserved. Nothing is more offensive to a narcissistic person than the notion that their lives are miserable because they're lazy basement-dwellers. (I don't mean to offend; I don't think you're a full-blown narcissist. But I suspect, like many people, you have some mildly narcissistic traits that are nurtured by online communities like Sluthate. It is typical for them to be explosively angry at any suggestion that they genuinely try to improve themselves or take initative: "IT'S A SCAM!")
Secondly, as other people have observed, you look a little better than average, and I suspect that most women would agree. You have height on your side, too. It's true that you're no male model, and that you're more of a 6 out of 10 than a 9.5, but such is life. It is not a medical problem to not be astoundingly handsome. It is not a tragedy that you weren't automatically dealt a better hand in life than 99.99% of other men. If you have the tastes for only the finest things in life, you'd better be willing to work hard or accept a lot of disappointment in life. It is uncommon for women who are not desperate to approach men to date, period. You'd know this if you spent your time experiencing social situations rather than theorizing about them based on online photos.
Don't take this as hostile, but rather some friendly advice. I'm not going to try to stop you from embracing any procedures, but I'd say that you should get your emotional issues fixed first, lest you end up like a plastic surgery freak in a few years, or deeply regretful of destroying your natural features.
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I'll also add that OP's proportions look completely normal by any reasonable (read: non-Sluthate) standards.
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I recognize the general attitudes and choice of language that the OP uses as part of the Sluthate subculture (along with the associated forums, PUAHate, lookism.net, etc.). I've come across those websites numerous times looking for info and before/after pics on jaw surgery and think that they are one of the main sources of users on this forum.
If I had to give the OP advice, I'd try to keep it pithy with two points that he should keep in mind when considering these matters.
First, Sluthate is emotionally and morally toxic. People arrive there as socially awkward young men wondering why they aren't successful with women. Sluthate informs them that the problem is that women are only interested in men with absurdly high physical (and sometimes monetary) standards. (For people unfamiliar with the site, it's not uncommon there for people to say things like "all men under 6'4 are unattractive to women," or "if you are not famous, any attractive girl will inevitably cheat on you.") Why are men so compelled by this kind of thing? Obviously it makes them feel hopeless, but the hopelessness has some appeal to people with mild narcissistic traits, as it tells them that the pity they seek in others is well-deserved. Nothing is more offensive to a narcissistic person than the notion that their lives are miserable because they're lazy basement-dwellers. (I don't mean to offend; I don't think you're a full-blown narcissist. But I suspect, like many people, you have some mildly narcissistic traits that are nurtured by online communities like Sluthate. It is typical for them to be explosively angry at any suggestion that they genuinely try to improve themselves or take initative: "IT'S A SCAM!")
Secondly, as other people have observed, you look a little better than average, and I suspect that most women would agree. You have height on your side, too. It's true that you're no male model, and that you're more of a 6 out of 10 than a 9.5, but such is life. It is not a medical problem to not be astoundingly handsome. It is not a tragedy that you weren't automatically dealt a better hand in life than 99.99% of other men. If you have the tastes for only the finest things in life, you'd better be willing to work hard or accept a lot of disappointment in life. It is uncommon for women who are not desperate to approach men to date, period. You'd know this if you spent your time experiencing social situations rather than theorizing about them based on online photos.
Don't take this as hostile, but rather some friendly advice. I'm not going to try to stop you from embracing any procedures, but I'd say that you should get your emotional issues fixed first, lest you end up like a plastic surgery freak in a few years, or deeply regretful of destroying your natural features.
I don't disagree with you, for most the part. There is something akin to an "epidemy of narcissism" out there, nurtured primarily by Western attitudes to life in general.
Now, what doesn't sit well with me is your unfounded abstraction of my attitude. I have partaken in a multitude of social situations, and experienced the cold hand of rejection every time. Whatever "out of ten" my looks are, nothing seems to indicate that they are sufficient. If I am, as you would estimate, a "6/10", what prevents me from ascending the ladder by a point or two by means of osteotomical procedures? Surely "looks" are nothing more than the sum of their parts, and by improving the individual features and their spacing, becoming better-looking should be a real possibility.
The fact that a neurotypical and suave guy can get away with being ugly or average (never have I denied the possibility and reality of this) doesn't mean that I can. For the record, I don't believe the people who claim that I am behaviourially "normal", and I also don't believe those who would maintain that swapping my unattractive personality for one that is more advantageous is easier than surgically improving my looks.
I don't think that I "deserve" being a "9.5/10" or better-looking than basically every other male. In fact, I don't think that I "deserve" anything at all. I just wanted to know what exactly could be done to improve the hand that I was dealt. If it is very obvious that I am a "six" or thereabouts, it should be equally obvious what alteration could make me a "seven" or whatever. Can we please try to focus on this, instead of my mental state?
Isn't being prepared to risk one's life to achieve looks more congruent with the ideal self an effort of sorts? It certainly doesn't entail "doing nothing", as every fiber of my being is engaged in this ordeal every waking hour of my life. I am not afraid in the slightest to give dangerous procedures a shot if they can grant me a real, tangible chance of becoming better-looking so that I may experience a vaguely normal emotional life without having to pretend to be something that I clearly am not.
I am pretty much incapable of being offended (there isn't much that I have yet to hear), so there is no need to go easy on me.
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this is pretty depressing.
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this is pretty depressing.
Just for the record I am considering your offer. Proper consideration takes time! :)
Anyhow, I wouldn't want to see this state of affairs as depressing. Rather, I think that it is beyond amazing that there is actually a possibility for me to attain a set of looks that I am comfortable with. Regardless of what people would "rate" me, I could finally be free and happy with the knowledge that I like the way that I look.
Countless people have died with far less than I have had in my relatively short lifespan, despite the fact that I have had so little personal love and attraction. If I can die pursuing my dream (well, except for answering Leibniz' great quesiton) one might say that I will die happily. I certainly don't desire death if life seems to have more to offer, and with certain adjustments to my face, I could definitely picture living happily.
You see, I am not entirely bereaved of (impersonal) love. I love writing and playing music, singing, dancing, and more thereto. Though I am an introvert I don't doubt that I would get along perfectly well with you and most other friendly people here. I don't lack friends, never have, and probably never will. Somehow, though, I struggle to make any of this truly matter when I can't get the face that I see in the mirror and photos to congrue with the picture that I paint of myself in my head.
Comparing myself to my parents and grandparents, I have certain traits that none of them had, and I most certainly wonder why I have them at all--if this amounts to subideal development or an unusual genetic recombination (yes, I am absolutely certain that I am a lineal descendant of those people). For example, I have a hooked nose--none of my grandparents did. I have close-set eyes--grandparents, oh no. Those traits bother me way more than anything else bar existential angst, since I struggle to make sense of the fact that I have them in the first place. However, I am a poor judge of myself, and hence possibly inclined to over- and underrate certain aspects. Hence, I wanted to receive external input.
This post is poorly composed (can't sleep), but I just wanted somehow to make it all seem less "depressing" and more "well, that's that".
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Buddy, you're very young. You can turn all this around in a heartbeat but you have to listen to me. I mean actually f**king listen. First, it's fine if you're pursuing certain surgical options. Your first op went magnificently and has indeed made you much more attractive, more what you indeed should look like. Second, fine maybe the chin-wing etc. too. The eye-spacing thing. Okay we don't know if it's doable. You're already handsome in my books but fine, if it's safe and doable and there are indeed a few docs willing to do it from what I've heard already, but you need to first see some proof on this and also a visualization.
As far as my offer, honestly, you can come visit me (PM me for my city and I have my own apartment, come hang here for a week and we can have a fun time there's room to crash at my place) --I'm just offering this because you seem very intelligent but just I dunno maybe you haven't found the right social circle or group of friends yet --and I'm always up to party. At least I could help you with the how to socialize with girls angle. I have braces and I still get laid when I want, though I don't want to that often anymore cause I'm a bit depressed but whatever that's another story.....
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wait i totally got lost on a tangent. once you have the final surgery, whatever it is, you have to like leave the internet and these boards forever. Questioning Options is correct, too much of this is morally toxic indeed and will only hurt you in the real world. But it will be really really f**king difficult, in fact you may have to go somewhere where they don't have computers for a while like an ahram or a f**king monastery or something or a commune. Hell, if you have the cash I'll go with you on a roadtrip to a commune or something for a while (there are bound to be seriously hot chicks at a commune dude....WHAT AN ADVENTURE!!!! Ajhhh and you all handsome from your orbital box osteotomy and in the bloom of youth WE WILL KILL IT!!!)
Come over here, I'll introduce you to my friends as the Prince of Denmark or whatever --but seriously, you will absolutely HAVE to work on your social skills no matter how handsome you become, and part of that will involve massively shifting your paradigm if you know what I mean. And if you'r on puahate or whatever. STOP.
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apparently sinn is willing to do the eye spacing thing --but it takes him and he'd want a neurosurgeon plus another specialist in the room and it would be MASSIVELY expensive. But I think he'd do it. But i mean if you're that rich bro...the world is your oyster. Just fly down to to Texas (fly me down to it's a fun place to hang out and it'll be less depressing for you!) hehhahh. But yeah, not a problem. Get a pre-vis done first.
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This forum won't be the same without you: no more egotistical (coke fueled) rants and random shenanigans... but, you'll be back...
...you all will come back...
we are all so f**ked up in the head its not even funny.
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like in every thread its one person asking about some extreme surgery and than everyone will chime in on how they need to accept and what not. A week rolls by and the people who preached acceptance will be asking about a different surgery THEY want, and the first OP will be the one preaching. We are all completely f**king neurotic.
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Thanks for the excellent information and well-intentioned (but not very efficacious in my case, unfortunately) motivational speeches, Lazlo. You're some dude. :)
we are all so f**ked up in the head its not even funny.
I have been like this for as long as I can remember. Even before the bullying properly started (though I was silently ostracised, I suppose that's just a more subtle form of bullying), at age 9 or so, I would spend several minutes--foreshadowing hours--at a time watching myself in the mirror, keeping tabs on my weight (I was a bit tubby as a young kid) and covering the sides of my face with my hands to make it more "handsome" (back then I identified the problem as fat cheeks, but in hindsight it might have been a reaction to the close-set eyes).
I remember one particular time when I had lost some weight, and happily marched into my parents' room at night proclaiming my great conquest. Another time I wore a bandana, and it framed my prepubescent face quite nicely and made my then literally white (sometimes, being Nordic sucks) hair look pretty badass. These events brought me great surges of dopamine as I would continually ominously envision myself as growing up to become a fat, bald man.
Hence, it seems to be that my "transhandsomeism" (is that a thing? can I get the government to support my project? ;)) had already made itself known at a very tender age. The difference being that back then, it didn't permeate my every thought, and I could still do things unrelated to my obsession.
Once I became a little bit older and sexually mature, however, things predictably took a turn for the worse. There was nothing there for me, only mockery (primarily by girls, related to my ugliness) and beatings (primarily by guys, related to my academic achievement and probably also ugliness, or perhaps more aptly put, lack of masculine sexual dimorphism). Ever since, becoming good-looking has been my sole telluric goal. First I wanted to become a palaeontologist. Then I wanted to become... physically attractive.
I'm typing this after a long night of not sleeping at all, so please pardon inconsistencies and ramblings. Just thought that I should share my "backstory" with you lot, in case anyone is interested and/or can relate to my experiences. At the very least, perhaps this could explain to some why I am so adamant about really having this stuff done, although it is grossly atypical, kind of risky, and ludicrously expensive.
I do realise that most people would look at me as though I were from another planet if I told them that I would rather spend, say, $100.000 (don't quote me on that figure, I just made it up) on complex craniofacial surgery to move my eyes a few mm further apart than on a cool, expensive car, a great apartment, or whatever it is that appeals to people in general.
Hell, to be honest, I would rather have my ideal looks--which, again, do not primarily amount to some abstract x/10 but rather a set of proportions that I probabilistically should have inherited in the first place--and a chance to relive my lost youth than all the money in the world.
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This forum won't be the same without you: no more egotistical (coke fueled) rants
I thought they were fuelled by Ashtanga Yoga.
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Buddy, you're very young. You can turn all this around in a heartbeat but you have to listen to me. I mean actually f**king listen. First, it's fine if you're pursuing certain surgical options. Your first op went magnificently and has indeed made you much more attractive, more what you indeed should look like. Second, fine maybe the chin-wing etc. too. The eye-spacing thing. Okay we don't know if it's doable. You're already handsome in my books but fine, if it's safe and doable and there are indeed a few docs willing to do it from what I've heard already, but you need to first see some proof on this and also a visualization.
As far as my offer, honestly, you can come visit me (PM me for my city and I have my own apartment, come hang here for a week and we can have a fun time there's room to crash at my place) --I'm just offering this because you seem very intelligent but just I dunno maybe you haven't found the right social circle or group of friends yet --and I'm always up to party. At least I could help you with the how to socialize with girls angle. I have braces and I still get laid when I want, though I don't want to that often anymore cause I'm a bit depressed but whatever that's another story.....
Can I come party and do coke with you too?
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Yeah Charles-Guillaume, listen many of us have experiences of extreme bullying. So did I and just as bad, but I got over it and tooth and nail climbed out of the trauma and became a boss.
Like you however I am highly neurotic --all this obsessive compulsive thinking etc. you recount --this is neurosis and OCD nothing more. Your chemicals are shaping your thoughts and the more you give into these thoughts they're influencing your chemicals. You're not fighting it you're giving in and you haven't even experienced the worst of it. If you keep going down this path you're going to become a dysfunctional vegetable and you'll have to be hospitalized either cause you can't function or you'll try and off yourself. So you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself motherf**ker.
Now if you actually have a plan of attack (on life, not just your f**king looks) but if you have a plan of attack on what you think your goodlooking self should look like get a f**king set of photos and a visualization done and see what you want.
And what's with these photos. Your pose and facial expression makes you look like a retarded vampire. What's up with that? Just take a normal selfie dude with a normal f**king cell phone. A frontal and a profile shot.
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Can I come party and do coke with you too?
yes.
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Your whole life if going to go flashing by as you needlessly worry about facial distortions that don't even exist.
Could you elaborate on that for my benefit, please? (Why life would 'flash by' if someone is always worrying about something)
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"Get your bench up to two plates" LOLOLOL How did you know that 2 plates is the golden standard of lifting??
Because I lift. That's how I know it's not some magic bullet. All it does is - given enough time and training - make you stronger and somewhat better looking. It doesn't solve anything on its own.
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Because I lift. That's how I know it's not some magic bullet. All it does is - given enough time and training - make you stronger and somewhat better looking. It doesn't solve anything on its own.
If I could only get back all those hours I wasted in the gym.
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Could you elaborate on that for my benefit, please? (Why life would 'flash by' if someone is always worrying about something)
Because you are not present and mindfully in the moment to all the splendours around you you moron. Worrying robs you of your happiness and the gratefulness you should have towards everything and everyone around you. It is living in bad faith, inauthentically and without any connection to the truth.
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Because you are not present and mindfully in the moment to all the splendours around you you moron. Worrying robs you of your happiness and the gratefulness you should have towards everything and everyone around you. It is living in bad faith, inauthentically and without any connection to the truth.
;D
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27f I think I would destroy you. And you would love it.
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I can handle.
But let's wait till I have my surgery with Sinn so I'm like f**king gorgeous.
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oh god i just threw up....grosss!
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Your bottom b*tch is crying right now.
I don't even know what that means. You're too advanced for me. Are you really 300 pounds? I don't believe you.
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I lied. I'm actually 320 lbs. I downed two burritos from Chipotle today.
Well that's not that much food necessarily. Did you always weigh that much or did you gain weight all of a sudden? I'm asking because I gained a lot of weight after I took some meds.
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I've gained almost 20 pounds since Ive become aware of this s**t. Smfh my mental health is deteriating and im only getting worse.
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I've gained almost 20 pounds since Ive become aware of this s**t. Smfh my mental health is deteriating and im only getting worse.
I gained almost double that after my failed surgery. :(
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I was kidding about my weight. What are you taking? Birth control pills? ???
Yes! Then it's definitely on again! No I was actually taking anti-anxiety s**t cause I started to get these awful panic attacks --like debilitating panic attacks. I need to get ripped and like van dammaged.
The reason why the breast implant thing was a turn on was cause I had never slept with a girl with fake breasts until like 2013 I was in Montreal and slept with this really hot Moroccan girl who was only like 22 and she had INCREDIBLE breasts, like perfect pears shaped not too big and she told me they were fake but they were AWESOME. I'm more of a leg and ass guy and never thought I was into tits but then she was riding my face and I could look up at these amazing breasts above me and it was just so hot while she was just grinding down onto my tongue.
So yeah if they're done right (hers weren't tight or like those hard breasts you see on strippers) they were just gorgeous and supple and man we wrestled all night. By the way Charles-Guillaume, here's a little powermove for you once you start banging chicks: at some point have them ride your face and you know work your tongue and then pin their arms behind their back (girls like it if you take control and are a bit playfully rough) and then with your other hand massage her breasts and/or use your free hand to reach around and massage her spine from the top of her neck right down to her ass. This along with wicked hard tongue and mouth manipulation. Trust me.
So anyways.
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27f I'm guessing you're a really hot latina. In which case you'd be marriage material. I recently realized that the most eligible men, and I mean like men who could marry anyone giselle, or any hot model or actress have all married latina women and that's probably cause they're amazing in bed and also make the best family women.
Matthew Mconnaughey --married latina
Ryan Goslling --marrid latina
Vin Diesel --married latina
Matt Damon --married latina
Ben Affleck --didn't marry latina, got divorced.
See what I'm saying?
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I gained almost double that after my failed surgery. :(
you got the implants right? I thought you had a pretty good improvement man
unless im thinking of somebody else
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you got the implants right? I thought you had a pretty good improvement man
unless im thinking of somebody else
Eh, you're probably thinking of someone else. I had HA augmentation but no traditional implants.
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Lol I love the gifs
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Lol I love the gifs
The video is even funnier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gC1GiSDDA
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27f I would make you absolutely LOVE sex. In fact, I'd make you beg for it.
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what do you do as a profession 27f? Charles-Guillaume, where have you gone? We're waiting for your latest news on what steps you've taken forward to actually address your concerns. For my part I think you need a visual morph done from someone who can realistically show you what is possible through plastic surgery.
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Charles-Guillaume, where have you gone? We're waiting for your latest news on what steps you've taken forward to actually address your concerns. For my part I think you need a visual morph done from someone who can realistically show you what is possible through plastic surgery.
I ain't going nowhere until I am content. ;)
Since it does appear (through my thread on close-set eyes in men), unless I and other people have understated the severity of my hypotelorism, that one can be conventionally attractive with close-set eyes though it clearly isn't an ideal trait, I will chill out with the box osteotomy stuff for the time being and start by making less expensive and risky improvements. Chin wing or possibly Sailer-style bone implants (if they do turn out to actually fuse with the jaw and become "organic"--I do not want lifeless silicone or some old bulls**t in my body) as well as, potentially, malar augmentation for some additional width and perhaps forward projection (though some people have claimed that my cheeks are sufficiently projecting already--they sort of look very dull now, but this might be due to swelling since I am yet only just about one month postop). Rhinoplasty to make the nose straight (though it looks less prominent there is still an ugly bony hump on my nose) and possibly some alar grafting and conservative tip reduction if I can find a surgeon that I can trust to do a good job. I need septoplasty anyway, so might as well improve the nasal aesthetics while I'm at it.
In addition to this I should get back to working out. Perhaps I'll try HGH out, in very moderate dosages, in order to potentially gain thicker overall bone structure. I'm drinking a whole heap of carrot juice a day for the beta-carotene, and am looking into skin peeling to get rid of acne scarring. A hair transplant would be great, since my hairline looks about fifteen years older than I (people often estimate my age to be somewhere around 18) am. I am however very reluctant to use finasteride, given how it seems to induce irreversible bone demineralisation and sexual dysfunction in certain patients. Rogaine for thicker (and hopefully darker) eyebrows. Quite possibly I'll even consider a very subtle "guyliner" and mascara combination, just to the extent that the eyes look "enhanced" but not obviously "made". I will also try yet again to go full WAP in terms of diet. There is no real reason other than apathy for not doing so.
Perhaps, after all of this, the hypotelorism won't bother me so much anymore.
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Try Clindamycin in alcohol lotion form for your skin. It's cheap, safe, and despite what they say about antibiotics not working for acne long term, it has worked for me for the last 10 years.
Let the swelling recede, before you decide to do anything. Noses are overrated. If the frame of your face is good, no-one cares about the nose. Daniel Day Lewis has a crooked, broken nose - he broke during filming 15 or 20 years ago. Does anyone really notice? He is ridiculously good looking. BTW, I learned about his busted nose on this very forum. I was none the wiser before.
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Thanks for the advice guys!
By the way, I have stopped wearing elastics, and my upper dental arch is shifted about 2 mm to the left. This should be corrigible through orthodontic work, I hope?
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Lazlo a bottom b*tch is basically the Pimps favorite girl in his stable of ho's. Shes usually the one he marries when they retire. Its simple Pimpin' 101
Cool so that was a compliment! Man 27f wants me so bad.
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For the sake of (my own, primarily) curiosity, I will add an image of myself taken several years before I got braces. What is interesting is that my upper lip looked pretty long prior to my teeth being straightened and repositioned, but now it is 13-15 mm (philtrum excluding the actual lip) which is supposedly the ideal range. Jaw surgery increased my lower facial height by a slight margin, which is a very good thing since I had a very weak lower third.
In this image, my mild hypotelorism becomes apparent. I think that my eyebrows are somewhat raised, but you can clearly see that my eyes are very much too close together in comparison with the rest of my features.
I was about 15 years old back then, so obviously my face has become somewhat more "adult" in shape and outline, but the flaws that I am so adamant about correcting come through very clearly.
(http://i.imgur.com/vw9M7JU.jpg)
BTW, Charles- since you're mf Smaug swimming in gold- why not fly to Korea. They've got the best skincare treatments. Get the laser skin package. It'll make your face super smooth, get rid of all the scars and discoloration. Then hit up the sauna houses for a nice detox. Can't have a crusty ass body after you get a silky smooth baby face ;)
Thanks hun, I'll look into that. :)
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How do you look like right now?
Swollen and pretty bad.
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I'm sure you are an intelligent guy, but do not underestimate how much SH/ puaH can alter your perception when it comes to looks. Not to be patronizing but I didn't realise how bizarre my thinking patterns had become until about 6 months into reading it compulsively.
Yeah, I don't really take that stuff seriously. My issue is with my narrow midface, and this was the case long before I took my quest to the internet.
Just something to bear in mind... really a guy only needs to be a 6 or weak 7 to have a decent sex life.
If he's neurotypical, yeah. :(
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What did you have done? You had it recently?
Bimax, about five weeks ago.
Just to reiterate the inexplicability of my very close-set eyes, exactly none of my eight great-grandparents and their descendants (excluding yours truly) has this trait. I am 100% certain (thank you, genetics) that I am a lineal descendant of all of them. Some even had wide-set eyes (which is hardly ideal, but the polar opposite of hypertelorism).
The only one of them who has kind of close-set eyes is my grandfather, but he has 1.) good lower facial height and 2.) nowhere near as close-set eyes as I have. In fact, his eye spacing looks (and is, I measured his PD) perfectly normal.
(http://i.imgur.com/uD3d2Ig.jpg)
This is my grandfather and I back when I was a kid. As you can see his eyes are somewhat close-set, but if you compare it to any image of me it rapidly becomes evident that there is no real issue here.
I must have inherited some really spooky recessive gene, or developed improperly. In either case, I will not rest until I have normal-spaced eyes.
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What can be done though? For eye spacing
Box osteotomy, possibly some eclectic orbital rim osteotomy (supposedly Dr. Sinn offers this), HGH and praying that it induces lateral skull expansion. Options are all pretty crap, but there is no way that I will accept defeat.
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Just for reference, in case anyone has any more suggestions, this is what I would ideally like to accomplish with the osteotomies (pic is from a bad angle, but the features are evident anyway):
(http://i.imgur.com/8Pycx.jpg)
This is my uncle as a young man. Relatives insist that I look similar to him--essentially, he is me without flaws. Not a tremendously good-looking man by any means, but has a well-developed wide skull with a wide jaw and chin (CWO), wide pronounced zygomatic bones (ZSO), and normally spaced eyes (Sinn's exclusive orbital rim osteotomy). We are of the same height and constitution, but facially he is pretty much the upgraded, fully developed version of me.
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@ CharlesG - Have you research HGH? I can't seem to find anything regarding side effects for young adults. Im also thinking of getting some ( have a sweet hook-up) but I'm worried about the side effects since HGH is produced in the pituitary gland.
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Cancer
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Ok like I said I have a good hook up. I can get almost pharma quality at a good price. Also I know that it can make cancer grow and growth is over the entire body. I'd only be going 2-4ius daily.
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B o o s t r o p i n - 100ius - $500
Also you can't say that they will be zero changes. My friend who's on test, already looks different and that's only from 3 months worth.
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No I understand Zoola I know it won't do any changes unless I did like 20ius a day. I'll probably hop on hgh pre and post jaw surgery to speed up healing.
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And even after... you don't look "human"...
oh god.... i dunno, I mean I think from what I heard from another user was that Sinn said during the orbital rim thing he can widen the IPD a bit. He also said the eyes look the way they do cause of the brow shape and stuff. These are things I will talk to him about when he actually plans my surgery. Just waiting for a surgery date....
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Yah, and did you catch that "the brain is lifted.." part. I did a little further research and they actually have to lift and move your brain. I'm afraid, Saint Sinn is supposed to do an orbital osteotomy on one of my eyes. Wonder if he has to lift the brain for that? Maybe that's why I am procrastinating. Can one of you guys go first and report back please?
No, I don't think the cranial floor is involved in any way. Just the zygoma and orbital rim, buttress of the maxilla.
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i am 100% sure that in order to free the orbit the brain must be lifted to make these cuts. there is no other way.
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i am 100% sure that in order to free the orbit the brain must be lifted to make these cuts. there is no other way.
From everything I've seen, I have to agree with this post. It's why neurologists, neuroanaesthetists, etc. are required.
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i am 100% sure that in order to free the orbit the brain must be lifted to make these cuts. there is no other way.
meepmeepmeep, you were the one who told me that Sinn told you he could widen the IPD 6mm just through the orbital rim advancement that is while he did that he could slightly widen the IPD. Is this true or not?
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Hey Charles, I found this posted on real self as a Q&A for doctors:
patient question: Is it surgically possible to change the distance between an adult's eyes?
answer from Dr. Steinsapir: Yes, it is possible. What is involved is craniofacial surgery. The bones that surround the eyes are cut taking care to protect the vial nerves that travel thru these bones. The brain is lifted because the bone roof above the eyes also makes the bony floor that supports the brain. Then the orbits are repositioned relative to the rest of the facial skeleton. I hope this description makes it clear that this is one of the most complex surgeries performed. Due to the difficulty and inherent risks including blindness and death, this surgery is only performed when facial abnormalities are so severe that the individual can't interact with others. This is not a cosmetic surgery in other words but a tremendously complex undertaking that is performed to give someone a more human appearance......
Yeah, I've read all of those realself replies a dozen times already. Most professionals also maintain that one does not grow height-wise after 20, yet I've managed a full cm.
From the statistics that I have found, boxost death is a very, very atypical occurrence indeed, and blindness results in less than 1% of cases. I like those odds.
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dr sinn told me that for MY case he may be able to achieve up to 6mm of widening without having to do a full box osteotomy which would require a team of dr sinn and two other surgeons (neurosurgeon and another plastic surgeon). keep in mind my ipd is 52mm. i have only sat down with him once and i will again later this month after he receives a model of my skull.
it seemed to me like widening the eyes is possible for him during an orbital rim advancement but it is based more on disconnecting, stretching and reconnecting muscle and soft tissues. which is why he told me he could gain NO MORE than 6mm (i really wanted 8 to 10mm) and it really depends on my soft tissues. whereas with a true box osteotomy i was told i could be made to look like jackie kennedy by a different surgeon i consulted with (i have decided not to go with this surgeon for other reasons).
dr sinn only does a true box osteotomy with a team of himself and two other surgeons and said id be lucky to get out of it with less than 100k bill. but it is also true that risk of death or blindness are small. blood loss seems to be the main concern but you can give a few units of your own blood prior to surgery and the hospital has more if you need it.
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Wow, thanks for the information! Are you male or female by the way? 52 mm IPD is a lot "worse" than my case (no offense intended), but perhaps your skull is quite a bit smaller than mine. I would be extremely content with just 4-5 mm additional distance.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, you're probably female, since the surgeon could supposedly make you look like Jackie Kennedy.
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Anything is possible for a willing mind.
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Another f**king model! Where the hell do you guys come from?
They should rename this forum BDD narcissist anonymous.
I guarantee you, jaw surgery will ruin your looks.
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This can't be real.
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Steroids? Lol, just, lol. The only people who care about muscles are other closeted gym rats. You want to risk your skin and hair for their approval? Lol, just lol.
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Orb has a very asymmetrical face. His right side is deviated to the left and his chin, possibly, jaw isn't centered. The whole right side of his face falls flat compared to the left- even his eye is a few degrees down too. The one with him in the KFC shirt better showcases his issues.
I wouldn't fret over the images of him with the dim lighting- it tends to mask such abnormalities so, no point in gauging it from those pics. And even "average looking" people look better under these circumstances.
Not sure why he posted his chest? Anyhow, he should incorporate more chest days to his routine. His arms look bulky and the chest looks very lacking.
Don't encourage him (I hope you are trolling). Symmetry is overrated anyway. There are models with very asymmetrical faces. As long as there is no obvious eye asymmetry, no one cares.
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Don't encourage him (I hope you are trolling). Symmetry is overrated anyway. There are models with very asymmetrical faces. As long as there is no obvious eye asymmetry, no one cares.
He does have some jaw issues. I think everone here is too blinded by his good looking eyes. At least he's not talking about getting a Le Fort III...
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GJ it's time to ban this f**ker. I call the shots around here and this turd is polished enough. BYE BYE. And if you read this before you're banned from the site I encourage you to give into your homosexual desires. There's nothing wrong with it. Your neuroses are just a result of suppressed desire towards good looking men of the same sex. Just give in, and be the mega-perv/serial killer/narcissist f**ktard that you are meant to be. EMBRACE YOUR DESTINY!!!! (and I'm being seriously helpful). Start with gay porn, let yourself go and jerk off to it, you'll see I'm right and that homosexuality is your true nature. Don't even waste times with chicks they're slimy and weird. You want a nice stiff cock to fellatiate and rub up against and firm buttocks to burrow your face in. GO FOR IT!!!
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Jesus Orb, looking at your face makes me literally sick to my stomach.
Hey Plosko, you said "another f**king model," were you referring to me? Ah God bless you and may Christ shower you with your heart's desires!
But seriously, Plosko, you've seen how I look, what would you rate me on the numbers scale? You too 27f? What would you give me? Be brutal, it could never be worse than what I give msyelf!
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Oh my god can we please stop this f**king charade!!!!
NOW!!!!!
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I'm gonna put a bioscaffold around Orbs head and hate f**k it!!!!
That'll solve his problems.
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I never interject myself into these type of threads but seriously?!! This guy if f_____ gorgeous and I am a straight married male!! I could only dream of having that face and I just honestly cannot fathom how in Gods name he cannot appreciate that gift. It really does make me sick with envy and absolutely dumbfounded as to what he sees in the mirror. Actually asymmetry in a male with those looks is actually to be desired. Tough, rugged. There....that is my rant. Un freakin believable!!
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HE's gay. That's his issue he just hasn't faced up to it yet. (or gone done on it yet I should say).
Seriously dude go to youporn .com and f**king find "gay sex" and just pick your fancy. I know you're gay. It's okay.
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Ok, I just went to the link and looked at the rest of your pictures. What the heck is the world coming to when straight men take multi-pose-photos of themselves??? When did this start? Do they all do it? If so, I am moving to a new universe.
No they don't. Only gay men. Which proves my point.
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Lazlo, you are hilarious. Have you been drinking or something?
No i haven't been drinking but I'm on these anti-anxiety meds if I take just a few extra I get sort of fun and looopy. So this is all in good humour. But the dude above is gay, gay, gay. Or this is fake and someone thinks this is funny which it's not it's just irritating.
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The last few pages are a testament to how much the eyes mean for the face. The guy has a noticeable asymmetry issue that I'm sure most jaw surgeons would take seriously. Still, given the way he has presented himself (shirtless pictures etc) I can see why he comes off as a troll or someone that has issues that go way beyond how he looks.
Orb: 27F gave you good advice. I'm not sure if all your asymmetry issues can be fixed but lining up the chin with the midline would go a long way toward making the asymmetry disappear. How is your bite?
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Gregor Samsa you are a f**king dips**t and a moron.
Everyone has a bit of asymmetry it's not that big a deal. EVERYONE. It's not natural to have perfect symmetry in your face.
End of this f**king discussion.
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Gregor Samsa you are a f**king dips**t and a moron.
Everyone has a bit of asymmetry it's not that big a deal. EVERYONE. It's not natural to have perfect symmetry in your face.
End of this f**king discussion.
It's true that no one has perfect symmetry (one half of the face can be larger etc) but having the central parts of the face align with the midline is not a superhuman feature. Just because he's good looking in general doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve a chance to correct the issues he has. He hasn't even said anything about his bite yet so I think it's way too early to dissuade him from finding out if he has any issues that a jaw surgeon would want to correct.
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This is legit the first time I've thought that someone on this forum has BBD. Only thing I notice is the lower jaw asymmetry and that's only because 27f pointed it out. Now I can't tel you to not get surgery if you're set on it but my recommendation would be to NOT get it. Unless it's for a functional bite. It you're getting it to improve your looks then you're crazy because you're a good looking guy man.
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so they are all stuck there, saying the same thing over and over again, letting the best years of their lives slip by.
lol, I doubt they spend every waking second on these sites. I'm sure they still have holidays and jobs and socialise with friends etc! A bit dramatic :)
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Nice vertical orbital dystopia and upper eyelid overexposure.
... that said, I'd still rate you as MM tier, albeit perhaps tending towards 'catalogue.'
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Orb, if you really want to up your appeal to girls, learn how to do something really well. Think Steven Tyler ever had a problem getting a girlfriend? Or Ronald Inho? Or Donald Trump? Or Oprah? Or Sarah Jessica Parker?
That sounds easy enough. Everybody, please root for me while I embark on my quest to become either a world famous rockstar, best football (soccer) player in the world or a famous billionaire. If all else fails then I suppose I can always get a gender change and become a filthy rich female tv celebrity instead.
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Facenit, I'm not really disagreeing with you but I do think you're underestimating just how much your apperance can work for or against you in most areas of life. The Halo effect is well established so if you're average or worse off then you will be doing an uphill climb your whole life. I agree that confidence is important but you can't deny that there are many doors that no confidence in the world will open for you unless you have the right looks to go with it (unless you're really rich and famous).
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my recessed maxilla becomes apparent. My nose appears to spread too wide when smiling because the bone beneath is 1/2 cm behind where it should be (from profile view)
I found this to be an interesting comment. I've never heard of this before.
Even though I have a fairly big nose, I actually don't mind it, however, when I smile it spreads across my face and makes me look particularly ugly.
I think that both of my jaws are slightly recessed (although according an ortho I saw, not to the point where they'd recommend jaw surgery)
I wondered about a nose job, but if you are right, and having a recessed maxillia makes the nose spread too wide when smiling, I could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone with jaw surgery?!
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Well that was an interesting read for me coming down off of LSD, orb you have some assymetries but your never going to be happy. I'm realizing i have severe BDD and its making me paranoid and isolated from everybody in my life which in turn is making me more depressed/nuerotic as I'm spending too much time alone. Should i even still get surgery i mean i do have a recessed chin and droopy eyes but will i just fixate on something else when i adress that?
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Your all b*tching at orb because its making you all second guess yourselves.
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Hey man im not ass licking him but how is he manipulating anybody he obviously has severe BDD and honestly wants to cut up his face, how are we any different other than being uglier to start?
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27f youre too harsh lol. Orb isnt as ugly as you say
also orb if youre serious about JS all you need to do is fix you mouth area, IMO you're a good looking guy. Youre thinking too much.
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I think realistically 27f would give me a 3 (no not a random plea for affirmation), but I think that's realistic. I mean on a scale where like young Richard Gere is a 10/male model tier people, and like John Stamos is a 7 and let's say Will Ferrel is a 3 and I dunno 1 is like deformed.
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thanks 27f that sounds like a good plan and is basically what I'm doing and what Sinn (hopefully) has lined up for me. I'm thinking for the nose I really liked the results Vladimir Gygoryants does plus he does a closed approach.
By the way, I never realized I had any kind of deformity, I always thought I just had a week/jawline and chin --so my reasons for jaw surgery are purely aesthetics (though now I have functional problems induced by orthodontics). But anyway.....TRUE DETECTIVE is on tonight can't wait!
27f man your life must be awesome. Texas, NYC, and LA!!! I love Texas by the way. Going to Dallas/Fort Worth to see Sinn was an awesome experience and I really liked the people and the landscape and food etc. Maybe you can be my sugar mommy and I'll tag along with you on all your trips!
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TRUE DETECTIVE is on tonight can't wait
(http://i.imgur.com/4pkHagR.gif)
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(http://i.imgur.com/4pkHagR.gif)
lol! : )
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You might want open for more refinement but, closed is always the way to go first.
And what happened to Charles, your European prince?
I'm interviewing for new sugarbabies this fall- I'll send you the application but, you get no special treatment over the other applicants, alright? ;)
Awesome! After my operation I'll be unbeatable!
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Charles-GUillame, Prince of Denmark, where the hell are you and why have you a) not responded to my various offers and b) not telling us more about what type of surgeries you're considering.
We need people like you are willing to go for it to help guide the bleeding edge (no pun intended) of aggressive surgeries to bring us beauty!
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Yeah Charles, you gotta be our guinea pig, man.
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So I'm absolutely willing to be the guinea pig for all this and I am, after earl, going for the orbital rim advancement. But the truth is if I could afford the orbital box osteotomy, I mean the whole nine yards with Sinn and a neurologist and it costing 100g's I totally would. And I think that's a bit of a sad thing really.